This doesn't sound like a very sustainable situation to me.  I really hate being controlled by someone's temper.  And using their temper is how they try to control us.

Unlike many A's, my A wasn't a very angry person.  When he did start getting into anger, I just couldn't be around it any more.  I find it really poisonous.  That was one among many reasons that things were so much more peaceful when I decided we should split up.

I think it's probably good for all of us who have an addict family member to have a Plan B in case things go bad.  That might be the house of a friend who will take us in, even at a late hour.  Or a motel room.  Or our own little separate apartment, not on the premises, that the A doesn't have the key to.  Or at least a car with some necessaries always stashed in the trunk, and a key always in our pocket. 

For a while I tried the thing of doing what my A wanted, so as not to make a fuss.  Going along with things even though I hated it.  For me, it made for a really weird, false atmosphere.  It was like I was in the middle of some kind of spy drama I couldn't get out of, where I couldn't ever be my real self.  And I realized that that's no way to run a relationship.  It's more like being a hostage than being a partner.

Hope you will take good care of yourself.

I don't know what type of "advice" or "guidance" or "suggestions" you are going to get there. I say that because in part, one, I don't know that a BB is the most effective and efficient fashion to "carry on" a conversation like this. I don't see it being simple, like I did this and I did that, as much as I see this really being more a discussion. The myopic one off, reply and response approach doesn't seem to be a true solution for something like this. Second, I am just going on my experience and what I see/read on this BB.

That said, I can only give you my experience, and even at that, it's not 2+2 = 4 and then the conversation is over. So, first, I don't think this is really about him and what he's doing. I don't think it's about what he specifically says, accuses you of, states, etc. Based upon my experience -- and this is not an oversimplification, at least not in my experience -- this is about YOU. Two parts to it -- but both about YOU. Part one, either you are dancing with him or you aren't. Period. Part two, put down the magnifying glass and pick up, and use, the mirror. Meaning, are you keeping it in the "I" -- and even at that -- what is the answer to part one? When asked if you wanted to watch a certain recorded TV show -- against your better judgment, against what you thought was best for you, you said yes. You didn't want to do it because he smelled and then he talks to the TV -- and you did it why? Because if you say no he gets madder!?!?! How about saying no because of boundaries you have set? How about saying no because it's not best for you and your health, and your well being? How about saying no because you've done a great deal of work on yourself, and you are prepared for it? So, in saying yes -- is that enabling? Is that perpetuating the situation? Is that your role, your contribution to the situation escalating? Then, you had to go out of your way to not sit near him -- regardless of the reason -- again, perhaps further escalating the situation. You "tried to play it sly" and started with some story or manipulation. And, the whole thing exploded after what? 2 minutes? From beginning to end, did it feel like a no-win situation? I always felt that way, before I found recovery, and started doing what was best for me -- from moment one -- WITHOUT worrying about her, what she thought, what she would say, without trying to avoid her from being angry at me, etc. Listen, no matter what happens -- she was going to be angry at me anyway!!! So, I might as well avoid the "getting worse" and keeping myself out of the line of fire. I do what is best for me -- and detach. Physically and emotionally.

In addition, the dance -- he was drinking, and you engaged in a conversation with him. You tried to logically, and calmly explain to him certain issues you have to deal with. However, you also pointed the finger -- told him he smelled, you can't stand the smell on him, etc. Sure, it's the truth, but saying it that way to a person who is drinking? It sounds like you are trying to apply logic to an illogical person and situation. If that works for others, perhaps they can give you better guidance, however, I have found -- my experience -- I accomplished NOTHING when I tried to logically explain ANYTHING to my wife when she's been drinking. Even if she agreed with me -- to what end? He agreed with you...will that really and truly accomplish anything? Check your motives. What are you really trying to do? Get out of a situation/argument/discussion? How? By explaining your way out of it?

He is negotiating and justifying with you -- "he's not drinking that much" and he's doing a great job because "blood sugar reading" is lower. He's trying to be right, and perhaps you are too. Even if you aren't, you are trying to make sense to a person who can't be made sense to -- hence, the dance. You rationalized -- if he is in control of himself and drinking then he has a choice of how he responds to you, and that yelling and throwing up his arms, pacing, ranting, raving, whatever, is not appropriate...makes perfect sense. Is it going to stop? No, so what has to happen? YOU need to change.

If you feel these "discussions" with him are helping you, the situation, etc. -- then, that's great. If it's working for you, keep doing it. However, if it is not -- then what? You asked "How do I handle it when he goes off?" -- work with your sponsor, learn how to properly and effectively set and enforce boundaries -- and the detach!!! It works. You said, "If I leave room he will get madder, so I just have to sit there and take it?" -- NO!!! You don't have to sit there and take it. Stop projecting, even if history says it's true -- and detach! Leave. If he gets madder...OK...how about this? SO WHAT? Maybe you shouldn't be making decisions based upon HIM -- and make them FOR and ABOUT YOU. Making decisions when you are focused on what the other person will say, do, etc. -- does not allow us to get healthy. You already changed your reaction/action/behavior based upon him and the past -- calling an alanon friend. I guess that's no longer an option? Of course it is!!! Do for YOU. About the smell -- is it an issue if you detach? Is it an issue if you have a boundary set and enforce it? Think this through. Think long and hard what this looks like. Excuses and lies -- do not, will not and cannot work. That is more of the dance, enabling, lies, etc. That's what he does -- not you. You are trying to be healthy and get better -- not him. You hate living like this, in this kind of fear, avoidance...then it is time to make change! It sounds like you are trying to get him to understand so that he can change and get better. It sounds like your efforts -- you are hoping to make him and the situation better. Focus on YOU -- make you better and your situation will get better. Will this allow you to go on forever, if nothing changes? No, but remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. That is true about the alcoholic...but it is also even more true for YOU...for us. Forget about him and do the next right thing for you, the next right thing in front of you, for YOU. Work with your sponsor on this -- and you'll see...it works if you work it.

You don't have to "prove" your position to him. You don't have to rationalize, explain, justify, etc., when he's been drinking. All of this -- can be part of focusing on you, part of boundaries, part of detaching, and part of change you can make. Remember the saying "I am sorry you feel that way" and "I am not going to engage with you right now" or "I am not going to get into this with you right now" -- and all of that is OK if you made it a boundary...and then you can leave! Politely, respectfully, and kindly. Is it ideal? Of course not. I've had to leave my own house at 2am. I've stayed in a hotel a couple of miles from my house. I've stayed at friends' houses, countless times. What I find unacceptable, what isn't good for me, etc. -- and not accepting those things, not exposing myself to those things -- that is what makes me better. That is what allows me to get healthy. Make it part of boundaries -- learn how to act, react, and as you make changes, your behavior will change. Remember...when you change the way you look at people...the people you look at begin to change. And, also...when you change the way you behave and deal with certain people...the people you deal with begin to change. It is, all, about YOU.

Take what you like and leave the rest. All the best.

 

 

Plan B...I heard that from some old timers and counselors and it made sense.  Talking about going on with my life when I wasn't going on with "our" life. I always like doing with my Alcoholic/addict yet at times that wasn't possible because of the insanity and there was a whole menu of other things I could do which were nice and okay as long as I didn't do them under the pressure of resentments and angers and such.  She knew why I was doing what I was doing and handled it as she decided...no problem.  After a while it got harder for me as my own wants and wishes started to be priority and we split.  My alcoholic/addict didn't blow up that much as she came to know that it was my anger that was scary.  I had to work on it and still do.   Just keep coming back and learn alternatives which you will practice.   ((((hugs))))   

I was relating to your story.

When I was living with my AH, he would behave similarly.

Really, each instance was unique, so there was never only one way I'd approach this kind of behavior.

There was one time where I felt OK with indulging him to sit and listen to a tirade. When I did, I pictured myself wrapped in a protective blanket from my HP, where all the AH's negativity was deflected. I reminded myself "this is the disease talking right now, not my husband." I didn't respond to him at all except to say something neutral like "maybe..." or "ok..." in a soft, neutral voice. I also tried to just be as present as possible. But ultimately I had decided from the beginning I wasn't going to give him any response beyond neutral statements - I wasn't going to take any argument bait he threw at me.

My AH would also throw out comments at me if I went to leave a situation, too. "Your leaving just tells me I'm right!" or "If you walk out don't come back!"

This is the disease just working to control the situation. And I've said in the past that I can recognize manipulation tactics only because I've used them, too. The AH would also passively threaten our marriage with comments like "I just don't think I can take this any more..." etc.

My best behavior in these was to not react. Just say nothing. Leave. Get to a meeting or pick up the phone and call my sponsor or another Al-Anon friend.

The psychology of it is annoying in ways, but I honestly found the less energy I put into a situation, the less energy the A would try to put into it, too - or he'd give up. There were times where I would just look at him and act like nothing had ever even happened.

Of course in my heart MUCH had happened, but I just didn't want to spend the energy picking up that dance with the A yet again.

In the long run, I found that for my own sanity and serenity I needed to detach from him permanently, which meant divorce. I just finally came to a place of accepting him for who he was right then, knowing he was never going to change, and that I just didn't want to be with someone like that the rest of my life. His cons far outweighed his pros. I didn't come to this decision, however, until I'd been in the program and working the steps with a sponsor for a couple of years. And I'll emphasize that decision was what was best FOR ME. I know of many Al-Anon members who've remained married to their A's for quite a long time and have managed to find serenity in the midst of it.

Hope this was helpful in some way.

I kept a bag in the car -- some clothes, jeans, a suit for the next day, items I'd need at night and in the morning, toiletries, etc. That was a constant for me -- for three years! I took detachment very seriously. I viewed it as a tug of war -- and when you are in a tug of war, what happens if you simply just drop the rope? In a ping pong rally, what happens if you simply put down the paddle. That was what I did. She couldn't "force" me to respond. She couldn't force me to engage. Sure, her anger might escalate, but that was OK. That didn't have to make me do anything. I just continued to do what I was supposed to do. I didn't ignore her or treat her disrespectfully. I simply didn't engage. I focused on "I am not going to get into this with you at this time" or "I am not going to engage with you at this time" and sometimes resorted to "Please, just give me some space, and some time, I am feeling very overwhelmed and smothered" and on some occasions she actually stopped badgering me. I didn't care why. LOL.

I learned in marriage counselling, and other advanced work I did and participated in -- by engaging with her, which is what she was looking for me to do, was a form of me enabling the situation. It was enabling in that it was my contribution, my role, in the chaos, turmoil, and havoc. While it wasn't important to know "WHY" -- this was her looking to be right, make me wrong, justify, rationalize, whatever it was she was looking to justify at the moment, and lashing out, was her release. She was emotionally incapable of anything else. She was emotionally and spiritually "dead" on the inside. But, this was about me. The music started -- and I did not have to dance with her!!! It almost became a battle at times, her needling me, digging at me, pushing, prodding, just doing whatever she could to get me "into it" with her. I walked away. If she followed, I locked the door. If she was banging on the door, I went out for a walk. If she followed, I went out for a drive. If need be, I left for an hour, two, or five. If need be, I went to a friend's house or even a hotel. I did whatever I could to stay out of whatever was going on.

My boundary -- was that I would no longer engage with her when she was drinking, and I would not accept unacceptable behavior, specifically, being yelled at, screamed at, or attacked verbally, simply because I refused to reply, engage with her, etc. I had to re-state and reiterate that boundary hundreds of times, often the next day when questioned where I went and why I had to leave. Part of my response was -- if leaving, not being home, going out, etc., is a problem for you, I am not instigating or being disrespectful, however, I find it necessary, mandatory, because I can't stay here during those times. Perhaps if you give me space, time, time alone, etc. -- then I can assure you I would not feel the need to leave. It made more sense to her sober of course, LOL. Eventually, we arrived at a place where her attacks were far less frequent. She didn't want me to leave, so sometimes, she just stopped, went off and did whatever she wanted, which most often involved more drinking...but she left me alone. Mission accomplished. LOL.

I canât tell you how much it means to me to be able to verbalize invent things here and get your device response support. I appreciate your openness and honesty. It truly is which damnation I want to put up with because you really are damned if you do reply and damned if you donât and thatâs where I think I struggle the most. I think I understand more so about how to leave the situation alone especially when heâs drinking because the conversation just wonât go anywhere appropriate when heâs drinking. But that is hard when he yells and screams at me for not responding or for walking away and does do those threats of âI donât know if I can put up with this anymoreâ as he walks away. It does feel like so often that we are going in circles. So he obviously notices that I leave the room donât want to be around him so much and itâs usually because heâs drinking. So then he asked me âso youâre not gonna be around me because Iâm drinking?â âSo I canât drive no anymoreâ. So if I say my truth that I am bothered by his actions and verbalizations when he drinks and that I choose to not be around that Then I feel like he throws it back in my face of well you canât complain we donât spend time together if youâre choosing to not be with me and I know itâs manipulation but it just makes it so hard so do I say I enjoy spending time with you when youâre not drinking? Which is true but sometimes I feel like if I just verbalize that itâll start a fight. And itâs hard to because I know there are definitely marriage issues there even before the alcohol issues are there and the alcohol just makes it worse. And I would love to go to counseling but he refuses and does the threats ofâif you asked me to go to counseling again then itâs just overâ. Itâs so hard because I know his temperament has changed to a certain degree even when heâs not drinking and I attribute that to his drinking issue in general. So itâs hard because I donât know what will set him off. And I want to do my best to plan for situations that I know are going to be tricky. So hereâs a question for youâ his brother is coming to stay overnight because theyâre doing a big fantasy sporting event. So the evening will be filled with them doing video games drinking watching sports on TV loudness swearing etc. Obviously I donât want to be around and would preferred to not be there for the whole evening including overnight. But if I make plans and say oh hey you know Iâm gonna allow you to have time alone with your brother Iâm gonna go over and stay at someoneâs house and do something with them in the evening and stay overnight. That will make him making nasty comments about things about not being able to tolerate him even drinking a little. But if I stay around and walk through the room and leave then he will also make a nasty comment and something probably about why donât you call youâre Al-Anon friends or what are we too loud for you? So again itâs kind of like the lesser of evils My teensge son is not bothered by the drinking but he is bothered about times when my husband has said something insensitive. . So when this upcoming situation comes up do I ask my son do you wanna stay here and be in the same house if you know theyâre going to be loud and preoccupied or do I ask him if he wants to come with me? And is by me asking my son if he wants to be around it implying any of my feelings onto my son and putting him in the middle of anything?

With alcoholism I kept trying to convince myself that I would get the results I wanted if I just said or did the "right" thing.

I kept putting myself into a position of feeling like I was responsible for the alcoholic and his choices and behaviors.

Through getting to frequent face-to-face meetings, getting a sponsor, working the steps, and reading the literature I learned that I was powerless over alcohol and my life had become unmanageable because I was continually trying to control the disease by saying or doing the "right" things.

Do you have many face-to-face meetings near you? I know when my head was in a spin it was time to step up my program and get to more meetings and reach out much more frequently to my sponsor and Al-Anon friends who could help remind me where I was powerless and where I actually did have decisions I could make that were good for me.

You didn't cause your husband's behavior. You cannot control your husband's behavior. You cannot cure your husband's behavior.

What can you do for YOU?

And finally, where is your Higher Power in all of this?

-- Edited by Aloha on Tuesday 31st of July 2018 09:41:15 AM

(((Dancer))) - I too have been there and it's a tough place to be. I am grateful that I found a ton of support and healthy suggestions in Al-Anon. A person wiser than I suggested that I just make plans with another person, and inform vs. ask. I agonized over this as I thought I knew how my AH and/or A Sons would react and it wouldn't be pretty.

I practiced my words with my sponsor so as to not do anything other than inform. My goals was to just make plans, inform my family, not JADE and then enjoy myself. I got through it and while there was some rebellion as it was so out of character for me, when I just detached from their words, it was actually way, way better than I projected.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I have to act as if I am a sane person living in a sane home with stable people....and then ask myself what I would do or how I would handle 'this'. I then work with my sponsor to find the best words that are neutral, kind and loving. Today, I make plans all the time and even allow them to take priority as having fun and socializing are important parts of my recovery. I had isolated for so, so long that it was uncomfortable at first, but now I have plans each and every day and take care of me first and then sprinkle in my chores, duties, family, etc.

So - if you want to do something else, make plans. I had to practice offering my sons a break from the insanity without blaming others. I would just say, I am going to ABC, do you want to join me? We can get ice cream after!! I had to change my thinking from I am making plans to get away to I am making plans to take care of me/my sanity. Recovery taught me that my life is unmanageable because I've been affected by this disease. It's not because of the person, the drinking or the chaos it brings about. It's because I have unhealthy ways of coping with it, and forgot how to take care of me in the process. I also had a really bad habit of making everything much more complicated than it was - I've been working to slow my mind, consider the known facts, pray for direction and then make a plan. One day at a time....it does work when we work it!