Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Can Anyone Relate?

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs PNP,

I think this is a timing issue. You aren't ready and that's ok.

There are a few things going on .. first and foremost .. you both will move on and this will die a natural death. I think your assessment of feeling that he's trying to insert himself in is accurate and valid. He's coming to a point where he is in a new space. All of a sudden he's got to live life outside of the rehab .. that's got to be scary. That's just not your problem it's for him to figure out. You are the one with the power in this situation, the power to escalate it as well as the power to continue the even keel. Where I am powerless I can have powerful responses to the situations. I can send a nasty or nice email neither that will get me what I want which is information .. if I sit in my truth and truth that the God of my understanding has this and do nothing at this point it's all good.

You don't have to take the call meaning you can let it go to voice mail listen to the voice mail and if he wants to talk to kiddo .. let kiddo call him back .. you do have the right to limit the space he is invading at the moment. You are so close to being done with the divorce I don't know that rocking the boat serves a purpose .. I would wait .. it may just resolve itself. I don't know why people feel obligated to answer the phone, answer a text, or have to react period when their phone goes off. It's not necessary to do anything until I want to.

As far as his stuff with your parents .. that's on him .. he doesn't have to like it .. he is not in control of it .. so sorry for him. Reality check he needs to be grateful they didn't file police charges and he's not even willing to own his stuff .. then he's not at a position to have an opinion that counts. Yes, they only need to be courteous .. they do not have to allow him back into their home or on their property. They aren't saying that he can't see kiddo .. they are entitled to their opinion and he did steal from them which is a trust issue. Just because he's kiddo's dad doesn't make him automatically a trustworthy person .. what has he done lately to show them that he's growing up?

You are doing great .. just stay on your side of the street and avoid stirring the pot .. I just think this will escalate and then die off as he realizes he's not moving home.

Hugs S :)

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Serenity,

Wise words, thank you! As I read your response, I thought to myself... I am feeling uncomfortable with feeling uncomfortable with this. Why? Like you said, I don't need to respond with a letter at this point. Why was I feeling such a strong desire to do so? I think it's because I wanted to try and direct his behavior so that it wouldn't upset my peace. The key phrase here is 'try and direct.'

Right now I still have the desire to respond to him (either call or text) for two reasons: 1) It might be important for KID, and 2) He ends up being snarky when I do talk to him about all the times I am not "available." I understand that is HIS chit to deal with, but it affects me directly. I guess I still need to stand strong when this happens and tell him he has no right to cop a 'tude regarding this. I answer when and if I feel like it. Period. I guess it's easier said than done in my case! LOL!

Thanks for taking the time to "talk me down," on your busy holiday... hope your dinner turns out lovely!

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

I've experienced this with my ex. I don't analyze it, label it, etc. I think it has to do with the other person and what they are doing. To me, it's the same thing -- program is the answer. The program, doing the work, and...practice these principles in all our affairs.

I set boundaries. I made them clear, politely, diplomatically, and if need be repeatedly. My sponsor told me not to say "I am not healthy yet" -- because that's my business and there was no upside in being vulnerable like that to my ex. It could make me vulnerable to an unhealthy person, who in the past, hurt me, turned on me, and so on. I had an email written, but decided to do it over the phone. Run towards the roar!!! LOL.

I kept it in the "I" -- and didn't blame, point fingers, etc. I said there were triggers, I was establishing boundaries, I explained what they were and exactly what I would do in the cases where the boundaries were crossed, not honored, etc. I did what was best for me -- politely but clearly -- like I did during the marriage. I did those things with detaching, not enabling, and setting boundaries. I didn't think or put any thought into whether or not she would like it. This was about me. I focused on me and what was best, healthy for me. For me, I had to look at me and not "worry" about the reaction. I didn't let the tail wag the dog so to speak.

I had to co-parent with a very unhealthy person, very volatile, angry, bitter, resentful person for 20 years. So, 10 of them were fair. I was happy and healthy, did what I was supposed to do, and she was very unhealthy, volatile, etc. I dealt with it, and it was OK. The other 10 were absolutely brutal. But I did the same, and I got through it fine.

All the best.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Sounds as if he has not given up his old manipulative behaviors. If he has neediness (and who doesn't?), his program is a better place for him to work on his needs.

In the early days of my separation and divorce, I had a LOT of emotions. Eventually I found I had to set a schedule to see or talk to my ex-AH. There was no big hostility between us, but it was just too disruptive, and he didn't have boundary skills. Eventually we settled that he'd see our kid every Sunday afternoon, and I'd reply to his emails about every two days, and that he shouldn't expect a quick reply. I guess he could have manufactured crises to get a quicker reply - a lot of people would have - but fortunately he didn't. If he had, I would have had to set stronger boundaries, because he should have been developing a bigger support system for crises than just me. Which he did. Anyway, in my experience, setting a schedule and sticking to it was the way to go. If your A tries to violate the schedule, or acts hurt and manipulative - well, that just underlines the need for boundaries and a schedule, really.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Dinner has been over and I am staring at dishes which I will do anything to avoid .. LOL!!! It was a nice dinner and we will be having left overs for a few days .. that's ok .. LOL.

I was going to comment on the fact you have a desire to explain yourself where there is no explanation needed .. you posted about a similar situation and I am posing a question to you .. because you brought up being uncomfortable with being uncomfortable, which is an interesting thought.

You have changed SOOOO much over the past year .. you have moved out where you didn't think you could .. you are creating space, a career, a life with your kid and letting go considering your kiddo is almost out of high school .. college is different especially if they go away to school. BIG ADJUSTMENT .. LOL .. at least that was true for me. LOTS of changes when you look at that coming at you .. pending divorce, redefining a relationship that is ending and dealing with that loss. Again that is a LOT. Just to process through that is a LOT .. LOL.

So my question/challenge to you is when you find you are having that urge that you are obligated to reach back .. yah .. how do you feel? What are you doing with those feelings? How do you feel when he calls or texts and you wait to respond? Why do you feel that way? Habit? Obligation? What's happening to you at the idea of waiting to respond? I can speculate based upon the little I know about you however you know you far better than I do. Then next is what kind of boundary do you want for yourself? What kind of permission do you need not to pick up the phone as well as what are you going to do with that fear of change? Why is his opinion of you not responding such a big deal .. he doesn't live in your space?? I'm more curious than anything else .. I like reading about how people process through their fears, changes and challenges .. how they live happy, because this is a take what you like program .. so it's a little selfish on my part to ask these question .. I am curious about people by nature .. because people are very fascinating to me.

You work a fantastic program .. you take good care of yourself .. which is awesome .. what else can you do to empower youself? I make power statements, sometimes to the person I am dealing with if it applies .. power statements are not mean or cut throat they are .. I understand that we are having a difference of opinion. I really don't see us agreeing on the outcome at this point so we can accept and agree to disagree or we can revisit later if there is a viable solution. That is a true story. I have noticed lately there is a LOT of gaslighting happening in my life and I have started making power statements when I see that happening in the moment. It's strictly just the facts Jack .. there is no arguing with the facts and it's less emotionally charged. It changes the balance of power in a very esoteric way. Sometimes people are not aware they are telling you how to feel or what to experience, I know I was waiting for permission to experience my thoughts and truths for such a LONG time that it all came out like an atomic bomb and now I'm trying to soften my approach although I am still very prickly when it comes to kids.

Give yourself permission to live your own truth and what works for you .. no .. not everyone will agree .. however everyone else's opinion doesn't count. He doesn't have to like you don't respond to him immediately if you know where kid is it's not an emergency, if it is .. he will leave a message .. that's what caller ID is for .. LOL .. texting can wait. In the world of instantaneous response times people forget it's not a requirement or in a contract. You are free to choose.

Hugs S :)

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey PnP - I am sorry that his calls/texts/contacts come at all the wrong times and affect you....I don't have direct experience with the ex factor yet can say that detaching and setting boundaries has not been a 'one and done' thing for me. He may or may not be trying to worm his way in or manipulate you or ....yet, what I've been told in recovery is that anytime I start to look at another and what they are doing and why, I need to step up my game and look at me.

I believe when we share our lives with others, we have embedded habits, feelings, memories and more. In the worst of times here, I would often go back in my mind to when things were better - call it denial and/or defense mechanisms, it was a way to cope with the present, realize it was different before and would be different again. All of this changed over and over - there was a time when looking at baby pictures of my sons made we weep uncontrollably and then other times were it brought peace/smiles to my face.

I share as what you are feeling is genuine. Good, bad and indifferent, you have a history with this guy and I believe we feel what we feel when we feel it as part of our healing process. Right now, you have a ton going on and his contact unnerves you and brings forward anger and resentments. That's OK - it happens and I've been told when this happens, the answer is in the steps. I see what you are going through as the 'more will be revealed' process that happens in recovery.

I have gone through phases of my recovery where I did screen my calls, and that includes my sons. I just didn't have much compassion to give and did not want to add to the pain/chaos of our lives. It was a great way to consider my responses instead of reacting. I have a feeling that in his work at rehab, he's had to do some step work and identified who he's hurt the most. There is a tendency to suggest in recovery that amends starts with just reaching out, saying hello, checking in, and 'being nice'....I know this from my own experience as well as from others. On our side of the program, we say, they're going to do what they're going to do - what are you going to do? I've never been fond of this as it's not a gentle question yet it does ring true - we have the power in our recovery to protect ourselves, and we get to do what is needed for that to happen.

My best suggestion is determine what you actually need from him, and then revisit your boundaries. I have no problem admitting I am confused, sad, uncertain, etc. - it reminds me that I am an imperfect human and so is the person I'm dealing with. I also have no issues admitting I don't know what I want/need at times for the same reason. Setting aside my need to be right, be perfect and have things flow perfectly certainly helps me stay present when 'life happens'.

As a bit of humor, the last time my son was in jail, he called 48 times in one day....of course, he didn't have very many numbers as he didn't have access to his phone. I was trying to be patient and gracious but I was ready to pull my hair out. Fast forward to 11 months later - he lives in a sober house, has 2 jobs, a girlfriend and I rarely hear from him as he's 'growing up in his recovery'...I am hopeful that at some point, we'll find a balance that works for both of us but choose to focus on him being sober, employed, has good friends, etc. than how often I hear from him.

I believe as your ex reintegrates with real life, things will change. I believe as you keep working your program and he does whatever he does, things will change....lastly, I believe the only constant in life is that things change and this program still provides the best strategy - one day at a time.

Hang in there and keep leaning into your program. The answers will always come so long as we remain open. I had to be reminded often in early recovery that feelings were not facts and they change often and pass too. (((Hugs)))

Aline · ~*Service Worker*~

I can relate to the situation and some of what you are feeling as well... I'm really grateful to you for sharing, this thread has been good for me too.

Its almost a year since I moved out from my ex-abf's apartment, seems so strange that so much time has passed. Many parts of me are still a mess, though, so there's no doubt I need this program. Regarding communication: it recently came to a point where I finally blocked the ex both on my phone and Facebook, because he "wouldn't behave" as I would want him to.

I can see that regarding my ex I have been and also still am to a large degree living in some kind of fantasyland where I believe I can control him (as well as the rest of the universe), where part of me denies his bad sides and tries to be all good and nice and understanding while the other part despises him. I am currently in this place where I'm really sad and annoyed that reality is not what I want it to be. And more crazy stuff. This program is finally landing me, gently, in reality.

Now the only means of communication available to my ex is e-mail. This made me see how this problem of wanting to minimize all communication can not be solved wholly just by cutting down on communication - when one day I received an e-mail from him on my phone, saw the first words of it in the preview on my phone (nothing threatening) and I felt so stressed and scared as if he had been standing right in front of me screaming in my face. It was then that I knew I have given him this power over me... I haven't resolved this yet, but at least now I see that simply cutting him off doesn't solve this particular thinking problem. It has alleviated stress, though, because he used to call a lot or leave ten, twenty, thirty messages, often very late in the evening or even at night, which really was disturbing my peace of mind at the worst of times.

The part about "trying to direct" his thinking really spoke to me too, because that's essentially my favorite tool with dealing with others and it isn't working.

The ex keeps reaching out, no matter what I say/write... I am not ready or willing to meet with him at this time, though, and I've told him so. I'm trying to work on myself on not being bothered by his e-mails much, trying to implement the steps and slogans... Because my emotions with the "screaming e-mail" showed me that I still view myself as a victim in regards with the ex A, and this is simply not healthy for me, and also not true anymore, anyway. Because if I'm the victim, then I can just be terrified of his polite e-mails and wait for him to change. Trying to embrace the idea that I can, in fact, take care of my self and that I'm responsible for my well-being, and that I can change, is really hard, but I am finally ready to try and do that, one day at a time.

I too often feel compelled to just answer calls/messages/e-mails from my ex, preferably ASAP. I don't always do that now, but its still not easy. I feel like I want to be polite, but when the other person is ignoring me when I tell them I don't really want contact then I suppose its them who are impolite in the first place. But this has been the dynamic in my relationship with my ex for years - if he just asked/pleaded/blamed/threatened me ENOUGH, I would cave in just to get him to shut up!

Thanks for sharing, Pnp, and I also appreciate the ESH from others...

hiraeth · Senior Member

Something I've noticed, and I've loved many alcoholics over 30 years....

Take it or leave it:

They are doing their exact job. They are my perfect teachers, and I am theirs. Life (HP) is very, very clever, magical even. Amazingly intelligent, and wonderfully humorous, and very kind. There are no mistakes.

As long as I need them to come at me, they will. Like your ex, they magically call just when I'm stressed. How do I know they should be calling? They call. How do I know I need them to leave me alone? They leave me alone. How do I know I have more internal work to do? It bothers me whether they call or leave me alone. As long as I can be moved out of serenity by someone else's actions, I'm not free. Them calling me and upsetting me is them giving me a chance to notice where I am still stuck, still delusional, and to get more freedom. They're the best teachers and friends I could ask for, and they never let me down. They push me to my own freedom.

The process is OK. It looks like we are making mistakes but we are learning, and we're learning good, hard things. This path isn't for the faint hearted but it's the right one for us, and the blessings are profound. Anything I'm thinking that causes me stress, needs to be questioned. Sometimes I laugh out loud at the absurdity of the things I am thinking! It's a good, joyous laugh. Not a mean one. This is about innocence and confusion. Your pain is just confusion.

If he keeps calling, that's his business, and that's OK. You're powerless there.

If you're not ready, good.

If you feel manipulated or imposed upon, you should feel that. No mistakes. They're your signals that a part of you needs more love and understanding. You give that to you. You're the one. It's not his job, or anyone else's. He's doing his job: right now it's to call you an absurd amount of times a day to push you over an edge and into a greater experience of self love.

If you don't tell him to leave you alone out loud, good. If you lose your temper one day and shout at him to eff off, good. That's the right thing for you to do: that's what he needs and you need. This is compassion and love, it's unconditional. This kind of trust is SO FUN! It happened for me when I finally truly truly got that I can't control anything. That's God's business. I surrender. A lot of judgment dissolves after that realization. It was a long time coming. It was relentless and brutal. I nearly destroyed my own life countless times before I understood this. I caused great pain for myself and many others, without even realizing or understanding how I was doing it. I can see it now, and all I feel is love and understanding for it all. I'm a slow learner ;) but we get there. Look at this place. Full of people who are so, so wise.

It is possible that he can call you 20 times and not affect you. Your choice is to answer or not, state your boundary or not, let the boundary change or not, just live it however it plays itself out. You can't fail at this or get it wrong, that's not possible. But it doesn't have to hurt. When you don't need the experience to show you where you're still stuck, the experience goes away or changes. I know it sounds crazy but it's true for me so far.

A great thing to notice is that depsite all the imaginations running around in your head, you are genuinely OK. The hurtful thing is the interpretation of reality, not reality itself.

I learned this at the feet of my gurus: the alcoholics. I have absolute respect for the whole thing now, every step of the way, every nightmare, every impossible situation. The beauty of forgiveness and self forgiveness makes everything so worth it. You're doing great.

-- Edited by hiraeth on Monday 2nd of April 2018 09:32:21 AM

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene