Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Got a call from STBXAH and would like some ESH

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I find whatever semblance of the statement "no" to be the hardest one to say. Say what you mean mean what you say and don't say it mean. He's going to call again I would be inclined to decline and say unfortunately it's just not going to work out with all the schedules at this time. Honestly .. I guess the other thing is .. he's not trying to visit today .. it's not like you need to worry about ut today either. He may call or Saturday may come and he may not call. I would pray about it .. However you are not required to say yes. Your son is not a minor for much longer .. it's his choice to meet up with his dad and he can take the dogs to the park to visit. Trust me I know it's hard not to worry about the future and project outcomes. Big hugs s :)

Tude · Senior Member

(((PnP))) I like what Serenity shared.

When the day arrives, the park is a neutral place to meet. Was pondering the issue with the cats. They aren't going to know if he's gone longer etc and you are right about how miserable they would be. If he wants to see them he will have to wait until more time has passed. Personally I would leave all our regarding meetings in the home until he's further along in recovery, papers signed and so forth. The park also leaves it open to leave whereas the home does not and the added pressure of your parents wishes is something I would not want....it opens the door for your son to leave also....

Prayers sent. As Serenity shared, pray and all will fall into place.

andromeda · ~*Service Worker*~

Really? The cats? Sorry, but our cat is fine around here as long as there is a human of some sort feeding him periodically. Not sure he really cares who that might be. To me, it sounds like he's just using excuses to tug at your heart strings to get you to agree to do what you feel uncomfortable doing. Setting boundaries is important in recovery. Just seconding what others have said and that it's ok to say NO. Hugs!

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((PnP))) - what popped into my head was 'not my circus, not my monkeys....' What does your child want? That's what really matters. In times like this, I would often pass 'the buck back' - suggesting my A should directly contact whomever they wanted to see/talk to. If your child is ready to see him, make it happen. If not, so be it.

It took me a long time in recovery to retire from the secretary role I had imposed on self in the family. I also had to learn that I am not responsible for the feelings of others, and letting go and letting God helped me practice service and self-care at the same time. Realistically, you have one free day in your weekend - how do you want to spend it?

You're doing marvelous - be gentle with you and take good care of self. We only grow when we are able/willing to change how we react/respond.

MeTwo2 · ~*Service Worker*~

this reads familiar for me because i have been there .. when i think of them today it's easy for me to see the insanity .. i think at one time i would have been willing to go to any level for my ex .. yep i too would have probably been one to load up the pets and the kids to go to 'him rather than allow 'him to feel the 'natural effect of 'his own choices, thinking and behaviors .. after all that, i used to wonder why he never learned or changed when the truth was and is why would he have had to .. after all i was doing for him all the things he could have done for himself .. in a sense .. i was trying to be his higher power .. realizing too i was possibly removing some much needed lessons he was given to learn .. not saying this is what you are doing and clarifying there is no advice giving in alanon .. i just remember all too well how much i tried to change for him to be more 'comfortable .. realized one day comfort is supposed to be a good thing for all involved .. if i were constantly doing for him even when i told myself i was making loving choices .. i realize today i was not making loving choices for myself and maybe not then for the others involved either if my choices were making 'other uncomfortable instead . (this includes the cat wink )

in regard to my own daughter though i realize today his contacting her was more about him wanting to remove his own feelings of guilt shame etc .. but there were a lot of events leading up to this belief .. today when i either don't answer or when i do .. i make those choices with at least a little more clarity (right motive) .. it's hard because i used to think I was very codependent on him and vice versa .. which with codependency the main ingredient is making each other 'feel better .. but if i am honest .. he was dependent on his substance and i was dependent on him .. (he had his addiction; he was mine) co = 2 .. so we weren't exactly 'co dependent (not that, that would have been a good thing either) but i had to learn to depend on something that really was dependable beginning with higher power and the fellowship .. always heard in recovery if we're supposed to know something we will (this includes knowing what to do next) .. the steps are a guide .. would suggest meetings, literature, sponsor, and fellowship .. possibly these online meetings as well with 'consistency ..

will mention .. boundaries are for me and i don't have to rob myself of my wants .. if i want to see him i can .. just as an example but at this point in time i am beginning to want recovery more than disease .. when it comes to any life changing decisions period i may want to follow the suggestion of the group only .. to make no life changing decisions until working further with sponsor in steps .. my esh only .. wishing you the best in this .. it is very hard when it comes to the kids .. asking the kids what they want though seems to be a pretty good place to start too .. if they want to see them .. perhaps i would just take them to the park instead and hold off on the pets .. again No advice judgments criticisms or anything else in this ..

(just read from andromeda right after writing this wink .. believe too her post is spot on) .. alcoholism is baffling cunning confusing powerful 'manipulating (dominating) .. manipulation = using words to get us to 'feel a certain way (sorry ? for them) .. yep tug on our heart strings for sure ..

KT2015 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi PnP I have no personal ESH in this area specifically around arranging visits but I learned a lot from this post and the excellent responses you go. Sending you support and hugs! KT

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, everyone for you ESH on this topic.

I went to bed last night and gave this up to my HP. I woke up and felt, "Why are you worrying about this?" I was worrying because I was sliding into old habits... me trying to please everyone. Once I identified that, it was easy to discuss this rationally in my head. Even before I came on here and read all of your shares, I was telling myself, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO JUMP WHEN HE SAYS SO! That is one of the reasons why you petitioned for divorce... so if you don't want to deal with him, you just don't have to! I can just let him know that his 24 fr. time-line doesn't work with mine. I don't have to JADE!! Imagine that!! LOL!

As for kiddo, he is 17. I gets to decide if he wants to meet up with his dad. Their last visit was a good one, so it may happen.

I realize the cats don't care if RAH is ever around again. They have copious amounts of love and food. It is NOT MY JOB to keep this reality from my RAH. And I am certainly within my rights to not want him in my home... again, divorce... hello? LOL!

The dog can actually go to a park with Kid. However, her hips are now so bad, that she cannot walk far... so I would have to drive them to the park. I am being patient with this and have decided not to worry about deciding that until Saturday night. One option is letting him know this weekend doesn't work, period. 2nd option is dropping off Kid and dog at park. 3rd option is staying at park - but after the first 5 minutes I feel it would be awkward. Can you imagine?

I do need STBXRAH to get his stuff in order b/c we have a tax appointment at the end of Feb. So I may go just so I can give him a piece of paper that let's him know what to bring, time, date, etc. Also to get that "first meet" out of the way before the tax appt.

Or I may write it down and have Kid give it to him. I will decide Saturday night.

The one thing that is beginning to stand out here is the inability of my spouse to truly understand the level of betrayal/hurt he has caused me. Because, yea, I kind of think that perhaps one day we could be "friends," but that day is not 4 months after I had to flee the house/marriage! So even with all the work he is doing in rehab (and he is getting a lot of resources), it's still all about him... just sugar-coated. I have a F2F on Thursday night... I think I will share this.

Again, thank you all for your support!

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I apologize for not remembering your backstory, but I hope he has never shown signs of violence? If he has, I would not meet him or let your kid or your dog meet him. It sounds pretty worrying if your dad wouldn't ever let him on the property. Remember that the main time of danger for partners of violent men is just when they've separated and the divorce is looming. That is when the most women get killed. And they do it because their partner says they want to meet up with them. All of those women went to that meeting thinking they would be safe. I may not be understanding your situation accurately, but I had to mention it.

The fact is that people's actions have consequences, and the consequences of his is that he no longer has free access to his former partner, his child, and his former pets. That's okay - those are the logical consequences. It's not your job to smooth over those consequences. There is plenty of future time for his sobriety (or not) to become clear and for you all to figure out what kind of contact is appropriate. Stay safe.

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Mattie - No apologies needed here! I have never experienced physical violence with him. His abuse was all with words.

The thing with my dad is really about HIS anger over hurting his "little girl." Also there is a backstory to that as well... when my spouse was using meth ( 7 yrs ago), several guns in my dad's collection (some very valuable) went missing. On his amends, my spouse said that it was one of his "drug-pals" who took advantage of him watching the house while my parents were out of town. But they have always thought it was really him.

As for the visit, he is still on a pass - so he cannot be out in the world alone... there must be a chaperone present. Family member, sponsor... somebody.

I so like this: The fact is that people's actions have consequences, and the consequences of his is that he no longer has free access to his former partner, his child, and his former pets. That's okay - those are the logical consequences. It's not your job to smooth over those consequences. There is plenty of future time for his sobriety (or not) to become clear and for you all to figure out what kind of contact is appropriate

Thank you for sharing this with me!

Tude · Senior Member

(((P&P))) Great share!!!

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

So a little update on this subject:

Last night got a call from STBXAH sister. She just wanted to share with me some of the things she had heard from her brother, and share with me that she thought that he was trying to use the animals as some kind of guilt trip so that he could see me. She told me that his mouth is saying all the right things, (like what he'd be hearing in his rehab) but every once in a while there is a slip in behavior... like the "old" AB is coming out. So she felt that he was just not understanding the status of he and I. She felt that he just wasn't "getting it." She thinks that he shouldn't even be thinking of contacting me in that way for at least a year. I told her that I kind of felt the same way, despite my sending him a "Dear John" type letter. I kept the focus on me, and tried to say everything in a nice way, but I was clear that I needed my space. So I thought it "pushy" for him to call me after 10:00 pm (found out from SIL that he called me even before he called them - she found that extremely weird!) and crossing boundaries by asking to come over and seeimg the pets.

She basically made me feel really good about myself and my position. She validated me, and my need for my space. Being divorced herself, she really understands how I feel, and most of the situation. She then shared that she didn't even think she wanted to drive him by to pick up my son for breakfast tomorrow... she didn't want to get into it, should he push the issue of coming to the door and seeing the pets. I felt that she could be right about that, so we agreed that my son would walk to a close-by restaurant and a designated time to meet them. We also discussed that STBXAH should NOT be trying to convey messages to me through our kid - she's been through that, and said, "That just isn't right or fair to kid." I agreed. She said she would try and broach that subject with him. She also told me that it looks like he might begin to move into sober-living and become a resident advisor there. She said she would see if she could get more information for me about that, as the facility didn't allow his divorce papers to be served.

Spoke to STBXAH today. I let him know that Kid was going to meet them at the restaurant, not sure of time. He seemed miffed that he didn't know about the breakfast plans. I told him that was his sister's suggestion, but I didn't know the details, and I thought Kid could walk down. He asked about the pets, and I just told him that I didn't want to take the cats out... but before I could say anything else, he interrupted with "OK, I understand, I guess your parents don't want me there, and all you have to do is tell me." So I just said," OK, that's the way it is... I am waiting on SIL to text me a time for tomorrow, & then I'll tell KId. Bye."

I felt strong with myself, and good about what I conveyed, even though the conversation was quick and kind of weird. It was nice to not feel so unstable around him. No contact is really the best thing early in my recovery - since we have a kid, it won't really be true NC, but it's good this way. The less I interact with him, the stronger I feel and the less those pesky "people-pleasing" and guilt-driven thoughts get in the way of my recovery.

Thank you all for your shares... I read each one every day this week.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((PnP))) - great share and it sounds like an outcome that's workable. Keep doing you and trust the process. More will always be revealed. It's OK to hope for the best for him and also yourself. I have friends who share a child with ex's and they prefer email/text for discussions just to lower the risk of manipulation or reactions - both sides. Just food for thought - (((Hugs))).

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

(((PNP))) I remember feeling what you're feeling and it's very normal to feel conflicted. My exAH played on my kindness and vulnerabilities and he was well practiced at it. I had trouble with boundaries and still wanted to please. I thought I could work everything out nicely for that happy ending of some kind. (I thought I had super powers to "fix" things.)

Though the help of Alanon and the grace of my HP, I am learning how to put myself first. I ask myself, "Is this safe?", "How do I feel about it?", "How will taking this action make me feel?", etc. The bigger part of this is laying a boundary and sticking to it without my excuselating.

Think about what terms of contact work best for you and offer him that.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Ohhh good on you!!! I was in a constant battle and still am over the issue of not sending messages through the kids. My ex still doesn't get it. So I hope yours finds in his recovery this is best. Big hugs. I totally understand how you feel about less contact you feel better. I think in many ways my ex feels the same .. I'm ok with that .. S :)

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, IAH... I am hoping that as he transitions to sober living, he can have his cell back, and access to a computer. Right now, I want to leave contact as either text or email too! The "trouble" with in-facility time, is that they have zero access to a phone, TV, or computer. I get why - I think it is a good thing - but when they finally get far enough into their program to get to use that common-room payphone, you can't really do any type of messaging with them. You either take the call and deal with the emotion that may come with it, or you don't. But I always told myself that if there was a true emergency with KID, the counselors there would allow for that call... so I was never worried.

Bud - Thanks for the support! We sound similar... I've been thinking that perhaps I've been "too nice"... as my husband doesn't seem to grasp that our marriage is over and I want to move on. I get this strange feeling that he thinks it's going to be like the last time... 90 days rehab, 30 days staying at his parents, and then right back into our lives. Many, many things are very similar...BUT not the outcome! That is why I just want to get those papers served! I really liked your questions you ask yourself... I think they will be my "go-to" whenever he contacts me and asks for something. Thank you for sharing those.

Serenity - I hope he "gets it" too!! I don't want my kid to feel awkwardness. But I guess STBXAH will learn - my kid tends to pull away from awkward. So KID begins to not want to see him, he should know why! LOL! In this case, I am glad that I have a SIL who has been through divorce and is sympathetic to my position. Not everyone has that on these boards... that's for sure! How has your weekend been going? PM me if you can.

Off to start some laundry and then watch a super bowl that I care nothing about this year! LOL! GO COMMERCIALS!

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene