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Hi everyone, I have been navigating the legal separation process with my STBXAH - after he was removed from our home in July for domestic violence he was court ordered to live with a friend. His court stuff is finally behind him, he has completed his program and can now move out on his own. Problem is he is still using alcohol and I believe cocaine and has put himself over 30K in debt since July (while living RENT FREE!). He has FINALLY agreed to process our separation which involves me buying him out of his half of the house, which will be a sizeable sum of money for him, which is scary, but whatever that is out of my control.
I am really relieved he is going to move ahead, but also sad, but that's another story. Basically he is completely broke, and has not managed to save enough to get an apartment, he said he would have to move in here to "get on his feet" which I said flat out NO to! He is desperate for money to get through this next short bit of time before our separation is finalized and he tells me he will be homeless. He has a job and it pays a decent wage, but he is just incapable of getting things organized. He is going to the bank tonight to ask for more credit, I think there is a very very very slim chance they will give him anything and I said very clearly I'm not signing off on a loan against the house for him, which made him upset.
He is telling me that he can't believe his wife will let him end up homeless, and he is also going on about how he won't have money for legal counsel (which means this stupid legal process could grind to ANOTHER halt) - we have 5,000 left in a mutual secured line of credit which we froze when we split, is it crazy to extend it to him to get this legal stuff done and get this short term problem solved? I can't tell if I'm enabling him by giving him money for this stop gap, or being harsh, if he wasn't an addict and we were separating I would give him money from our life in a heartbeat to move ahead, so does that mean I'm trying to control things? I'm not worried about being paid back, I would make him sign an legal IOU and make sure I was paid back out of his payment.
I have a hard time knowing what is up and down right now, I care about him, I know he needs to suffer the consequences of his life to make changes and to see how out of control his life has become, on the other hand I want this short term problem to end and it hurts my heart to deny help to a person I love. I'm aware that's codependence and rescuing hard at work and I know I'm not responsible for his consequences, on the other hand I feel like I am legitimately denying him access to something that he helped build and has a stake in (our home). Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Big big hugs .. first off .. you don't have to make a decision right this second. I encourage you to pause pray and proceed in a Good Orderly Direction. The other thing is my friend please .. go back and read what you wrote about him using his money for alcohol and drugs .. I find it interesting that you continue to say he can't get organized .. you are right he can't .. why is that? He's an addict .. so giving him 5k to use for attorney fees solves what?? 5k in drugs and booze after you have made reference to what he's currently doing with his money. So sleep on things get your head on straight and while I completely empathize with the issue that he may be homeless reality is no .. he doesn't have to be .. all he has to do is walk into an AA meeting and say he needs help. The people there are more qualified to help him than you are .. this is not your mess time solve. Take what you like .. if you are seeking permission not to help him financial or otherwise I'm saying it's ok .. there is help he has a choice .. that's up to him. Big hugsand BREATHE .. it's easy to forget to do!!!
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Thank you serenity - I have been strong up until this point and I am just weary and desperate for this situation to be over. Its making me think some crazy thoughts to alleviate the pressure. This is so painful to watch him struggling and floundering and I want to cut the line. I just hope the bank gives him some money. I knew this was coming for so long but now its arrived and its just so awful to sit through. I cant believe we are here and he has no signs of taking responsibility or seeking help. He is very secretive about his addictions and I think he believes he is hiding it. I really appreciate the response, its nice to have a place where I can share about this crazy situation and have people who understand.
One thing alanon drive home for me is I can't save other people from themselves .. no matter how much I love them I have to trust that hp power I'd bigger and in control. It doesn't mean I can't be kind compassionate or empathic .. they have the right to find their own path .. my power lays within trusting the process .. that also doesn't mean every ending is happy .. i can only write my own ending. I'm very glad to share this journey with you .. your share was something I needed to read to remember I can't force my will on others. Hugs.
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
It sounds as if he is wheedling and manipulating all he can in order to continue his addictive habits. He'd have plenty of money to live and take care of all his needs if he'd just go into recovery and work his program. And he wants to blame his wife for the fact that he's faced with the choice of recovery or homelessness! "Why won't you simply let me run roughshod over you so there's no fear I'll have to go into recovery??" Sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying.
Of course I can't predict what your guy will do, but I'll tell you what mine would do. If I offered him access to a $5000 line of credit to take care of his legal bills, somehow that $5000 would disappear and the legal bills would still not be paid. But the addiction would have had another week or two of indulgence.
I do worry about $5000 from a line of credit that is attached to both of you. I know the idea would be that that $5000 would come out of his share of the house. But somehow in the chaotic world of addiction, that's rarely the way it happens. I worry that you would ultimately be out another $5000. And the legal problems would still have to be paid for.
My A (now ex-H) is and always has been completely penniless. Money comes in and goes out faster than you can see it. But somehow he was able to afford a divorce. My lawyer handled most of it, I believe. He just signed the papers. As I understand it, after a while it goes ahead whether or not he signs the papers. Anyway, his pennilessness didn't stand in the way of me getting the divorce. And he didn't even have a share in a house waiting, as your guy does.
I'm so sorry you're going through this and I can relate to your mixed emotions. It's so hard.
How I managed when I was going through this was to focus on my daughter's and my needs. It was not natural for me to put myself first. I could not take on any more of his problem... I was too overwhelmed and could no longer carry his burden on my shoulders.
He said the same things to me about me not honoring our marriage vows to take care of him in sickness, etc. Going to meetings and continuing to work the steps, I continue to hand guilt that bubbles up to my HP.
In my case, and everyone is different, he concocted reason after reason and put one road block after another to prevent our getting divorced. He would say anything to stop the process. ... and.... I didn't do 'getting divorced' well... I wavered, I became irritable....
When they do this, it's emotionally draining and wears us down without good support. For me, at times it was like I chose to be underneath the sinking Titanic. Other times, it felt like he was holding me hostage underneath the sinking Titanic.
I think it's normal to feel confused.
Act from your heart and take good care of yourself. Let go of the outcomes. He has a HP watching over him and his own path to walk.
Hugs, (((Vicki))), I'm sorry you're going through this... I hear you about things being confusing, I used to be confused constantly when dealing with my ex-abf, and now that I think about it I suppose this confusion was telling me "something is doggy here that's messing with my mind", but I didn't get it then. I know I've given quite a lot of money over the years to my ex-abf, and the first thing it went to was cigarettes, alcohol and weed. That was my insanity that I kept hoping for more sensible spending. I couldn't control him, or anyone else. Take care of yourself
The situation he finds himself in is of his own design, making. You didnt cause this and cant cure it. Sometimes its good to think whats the best course of action for the majority rather than just one person. So if the family home is a resource that benefits the majority then I would protect that resource from an addict and any plans they have for that. He may have helped build up your resources like your home but unfortunately his disease means he has lost the rational thought processes that would make him responsible for it. So unfortunately its on you as the rational person.
My sons reckless behaviour and drinking meant he was putting me and my other son at risk of homelessness so I had to put the needs of me and him before the other son and I put him out. He was homeless at aged 17-18. He managed and so did I. Things changed for everyone. I also had to leave my exah and eventually no contact at all had to happen. I truly had to let go and let God for everyones sake. Hes never looked back. Can you let him go completely, the contact might be a crutch for him stopping him and you move on to build a life in the new reality. Often the contact keeps alive hopes of reconciliation and keeps the denial merrygoround turning.
Whenever I find myself uncertain what to do, I lean into the program. I love the slogans - When in Doubt, Don't, Keep it Simple, Let Go and Let God. In my experience, at points were I have compromised my healthy boundaries, it's not worked out well for me. No matter what they are/are not doing, when my expectations are not met, I then feel used and manipulated. Each time, I have had to look at my part and almost every time, it's because I compromised my boundary. My sponsor doesn't allow me to blame others for my own choices.
An active alcoholic is not able/willing to think/act rationally. It's not a choice - it's part of the disease. Every ounce of their being is pulled towards the substance(s) to alter their mind/experience. Al-Anon gives me the tools to protect my own self/sanity - it's my job to use them. It's not my job to judge, project, anticipate, etc. what they are/may do - it's my job to stay on my side of the street and preserve my grace, dignity, self-respect and sanity.
Again, each time I am uncertain and my will/ego return front and center, the answers for me are found in this program. Holding fast to set boundaries is not always easy, especially when faced with active disease, but they have served me well. (((Hugs))) - I too am sorry you are going through this - it does stink when it's 'in your face' - remember that this too shall pass.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
You have to choose between the right thing to to and the way you can get separated from him the fastest. Of course you don't want him in yo yr home especially since you are paying him so much money to cover his share .
I was one of those people who.had way too much empathy for others and not much for myself. An addict can organize pretty well to get their dope. They are not incapable of organizing. They go to score every day. That takes a lot of work. There are some says I an so exhausted from my responsibilities it is hard to get groceries.
No matter what they are going out to get their stuff.
VickiR - I am going to second what Maresie posted. My ESH was that no matter how child-like, disorganized or "helpless" my AH acted, he was ALWAYS able to find a way to 1)find money for drugs/alcohol and 2)find a way to go get them. Looking back, it was amazing at times. They are just really good at getting others to do for them.
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
Thanks everyone, tonights battle was over my refusal to change lawyers because he hates my current one. Its the only thing ive Asked of you me you just asked me for money yesterday - that didnt count as a favour/request because its what *any decent person* would do, and therefore a total given. Gahhhh. Also veiled threats about how he might negotiate more than I think with our agreement, I know its delusional and no judge will give him joint custody or alimony, but it still gets under my skin. I cut him off and put his texts on do not disturb, trying to take deep breaths and focus on myself and all the good things in life. Anyway, good to vent, this process has been unreal. I am going to take a few days to think about everything and avoid contact with him as much as possible. Thank you everyone for the thoughtful and helpful responses - it means a lot.
VickiR,
Yes, it sounds like your husband and my ex have the same script. He didn't want me to use a lawyer too close to where he worked, he didn't like the one I chose, he then wanted to use the same one together... next he didn't like this clause, then that clause, then wanted to add a clause that stated we would need to reconvene and calculate splitting social security benefits. Then he listed some things he wanted as family heirlooms and created a huge fuss how it extended back in their family. He is not Japanese, but apparently there was a samurai sword whose ownership from some great grandfather and a long-winded war story to accompany it. (I'd have given it to him gladly but not how he was treating me.) Then the new wife came along... and she didn't like the divorce agreement and it started all over.
And yes, in-between all that came the threats- first it was I'd never see my daughter, then I'd be left homeless and penniless, then no man would want me to him stating I was the most horrid experience he could have ever imagined in his nightmares... and that list goes on too...
One thing I did learn was that I could not reason with insanity.
I'm glad you've given yourself space to get centered.
(((VickiR))) - sending positive thoughts and prayers. Your choice to put Do Not Disturb on is awesome self-care. Also your plan to focus on you and take a break sounds like program to me. Hang in there and remember that this too shall pass even if it doesn't feel like it. (((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
So sorry about all this craziness. Even in non-addicts, the divorce process seems to bring every craziness to the forefront - add alcohol to the mix and it gets super crazy. I had a lot more peace once I had every contact go through my lawyer. Otherwise the manipulation and mood swings and volatility on his part was just insane. Hang in there!
Sometimes I wish that my son had physically abused me (I'm his Dad), because with that motivation I think I would have found it a lot easier to do what I needed to do as far as detachment with love, no more enabling, etc. - but then again, maybe I'm just thinking that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and who the heck knows how I'd deal with a different set of problems - LOL, I'd undoubtedly find a way to screw things up with a different, "better" set of problems, just like I have with my current set of problems with my adult son.
I'll defer to others here that are far wiser than me regarding the emotional aspects of ending a marriage to an alcoholic partner, but on the logistical issues, several divorces have taught me a few things (I'm not a lawyer, I'm not trying to practice law without a license, but I have learned a few things) - "he . . . has put himself over 30K in debt" - that debt may be part YOUR debt, too, depending on several factors which a good attorney can help ya navigate - but if it is joint debt, the CC companies don't care if he's ordered to pay all of it when ya get divorced - if he doesn't pay his share, they'll come after you. Also, if you're talking about buying him out of the house, that must mean that it's jointly owned - and he may have a legal right to move back in regardless of your "No" - have ya considered a restraining order? I'd suggest that blocking his texts is a good start, but I found it better to route ALL interactions with a soon to be ex through my attorney - it'll cost ya some attorney time, but it's a lot less headaches. I'm not sure how ya "freeze" a line of credit, but our alcoholics are very creative when it comes to getting to money, so I'd close it, eliminate it, whatever, IN WRITING, as soon as possible - you've already closed any joint CCs, right??
And remember, in a divorce NOTHING counts unless it's in writing with a Judge's signature on it - verbal promises are worthless, and specificity in a divorce decree is the key to eliminating many potential problems down the road.
TY has some excellent points about nothing counts unless it's in writing and signed off on.
Sure he can ask for the moon however he better figure out how to get it all signed off on. As far as the money, I still am in the no line however that's me because he's already gone into debt. BTW mine did 20k worth of IRS debt and his attorney informed me they wouldn't go after me for that I raised an eyebrow and responded with since we haven't been together for 3 years I would say that's soooo not my issue. It wasn't .. lol. His attorney also realized by that point I had turned into someone they didn't want in court.
My suggestion is pick your battles .. know the mountain you are willing to die on .. the situation of the 30k debt .. his .. mountain I'm willing to die on and learning the art of compromise. It's unfortunate that he's not willing to understand what's going on and I say not willing because based upon my XAH .. he tried everything he could do to delay and stall the divorce until he had someone else to marry. Have everything completed this includes the financial side of things .. getting the divorce is great however the financials can drag out for years and this is where the attorney's make their money.
All of this is about loosing control and being angry .. again .. my experience with my XAH .. you do you .. and hopefully because you are working your program things will be much gentler in the process than mine was .. we still are waging war and it so doesn't need to be like that.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this kind of stress .. breaking of marriage is hard enough let alone dealing with this other garbage to boot .. the best attorney's I have dealt with are the ones who say this is painful there is no sense in prolonging the pain.
Big hugs many positive thoughts and prayers. This is an emotionally expensive process .. not just financially.
S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Thanks everyone - in Canada we are pretty fortunate if debt is accumulated after the separation (which is easy to prove with his removal) I am not responsible and he is also under a peace bond and unable to move back into the house fortunately. TY I hear you about wishing the boundary crossing would be clear. My AH crossed the line physically a few weeks before the final incident and I remember feeling relief that it would finally be easy to leave him and then it didnt happen and I just felt disappointed with myself. Such a struggle to break away. We have made some legal progress this week but I am just feeling exhaustion and worry. Thank you to everyone for the responses it helps so much. I cant believe how much I want this to be over. Trying to breathe and remember I will get there soon. He is doing so badly, he looks awful and I just keep fearing he will lose his job before we finalize everything and then I will be responsible for him through spousal support or something awful.
If someone lost their job in the middle of the divorce the judge would literally instruct them to get another. I have witnessed that in court. They would go off whatever you file for tax returns. Big hugs .. I forgot about Canada in terms of that's where you are!!! Unless it was drug out for a number of years which I don't think would be the case I would not give him money for the house before the divorce is finalized so he can't retain an attorney. The money will win out. Girl .. get yourself out first and then cut him loose. It's awful he's so sick. That's not your fault. This is about you. I'm sorry to sound cold and calculating .. after what I experienced keep the divorce business there is no cost benefit to getting emotional. Hugs s :)
-- Edited by SerenityRUS on Tuesday 30th of January 2018 09:14:38 AM
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
(((Vicki))) - sending you tons of positive thoughts and prayers. Divorce is never easy, and as said above, when this disease is added to the mix, it just is off the rails. You are moving forward and that's all you can do. Just be gentle with you and see if you can focus on one day at a time. I am better able to practice this program during difficult times if I make my program a 'need' and a priority. More meetings, more fellowship, more meditation/prayer - whatever helps center you is what works for me.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Bud hits the nail on the head! You cant reason with insanity. Best thought I can come up with is to keep in mind, and separate, their problem from my problem, and not let them make their problem into my problem. A polite response, quietly said to your A-ex might get through... I guess you should have thought about that. Dont let yourself be put on the responsibility hook. Good luck.
Welcome to MIP Rock - glad you found us and glad that you joined right in! Keep coming back!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
