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Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums -> Al-Anon Family Group -> Al-Anon Family Group -> Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
Post Info TOPIC: Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
hotrod


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Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
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PP I am glad that you returned and shared. This thread is a great example why many alanon meetings enforce the" no cross talk" requirement. 
Keeping the focus on ourselves,examining our motives and exploring the use of program tools allows each member to learn to accept themselves and courageously look at our negative responses, as well as our ability to twist motives, and justify our actions.

This is difficult to accomplish as it is much easier to point figures at another and discuss controversial opinions and thereby be diverted from our primary spiritual aim.

As tradition 10 explains---'   "We have no  opinion on outside issues hence out name will never be drawn into pubic controversy"  and Tradition 6 cautions about being   diverted  from our PRIMARY spiritual aim. 

Your sponsor is very wise. Glad you are back



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Betty

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Junenine


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(((PosiesandPuppies))) i appreciated the many points expressed in this thread and i also related to everything in your original post. i think it's natural and educational for non-addicts to struggle with understanding the disease of addiction and to read lots of stuff in order to do so. just want to say thanks for sharing and you're certainly not alone.



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shrnp


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Alcoholism as a
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PnP,

I think you are taking this to personally, and I am sorry if anything I said made you think that. I have never called myself a double winner but I guess I am. Maybe AA is stricter about scientific studies and books. It is not to discredit them it is to keep the program simple I believe. This is a forum not a face to face meeting so, you can talk about things like that if you want.

I have a bachelor's degree in a field of science. I use to belong to ResearchGate an online community for scientific researchers to share and debate theories and findings. The science of alcoholism's theories and findings is vast and debatable. It is a never ending conversation, that is why I said that I did not want to talk about science not because I did not believe in it. I honestly think it belongs in another forum, and there are plenty of sites and groups that do not center around a higher power or the 12 steps for recovery. I used AA for my recovery and I believe in it just the way it is, and I am not going to apologize for that.

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Sharon 
MissM


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Hi PnP. I completely understand the desire to understand more about what is happening to your loved one. Many al-anoners study alcoholism and it's effects and causes; I took a course on drug and alcohol counselling myself a couple of years ago. However I decided that I was actually sick to death of focusing on alcoholism and decided to return to the degree I had begun several years earlier instead (almost finished, yippeeeeee )
I still take a particular interest in topics of addiction and mental health disorders when they come up and will probably end up specialising in those areas because I (unfortunately, lol) have an affinity for it, it seems. What I find is I can tell almost instantly when a client is lying or when to suspect alcohol abuse, or mental issues whilst most of the other students always miss it completely and then look aghast afterwards...."Really? They drink that much? Why would anyone do that? I hope they understand how bad that is for them now. Why would anyone lie about it? That's just crazy!" There's another al-anoner in a few of my classes and we tend to exchange bemused looks, lol. My point is, I identified a way to turn that unwanted skill-set into something constructive and I'm really glad about that. Turning defects into assets and all that...basically if your motive for wanting to understand more is that it benefits you and your own well being in some way then great, go for it.

At the same time, I used to show my partner all kinds of information about how his drinking was effecting him. What I would find was, he would take a great interest and even do a bit more research himself. And the results were amusing in retrospect- he'd read that alcohol depletes the brain of vitamin XYZ and the next day he'd come home with a life-time supply of high strength vitamin XYZ. That sort of thing. I stopped sharing what I knew because sometimes I felt that he was doing dangerous things as a result and I was harming him by providing the information when I knew he would probably misuse it. Aren't people wonderful and unpredictable? As long as you are prepared to let go of the outcome, if you feel like sharing it with him will make you feel better then groovy. Go for it

Finally, I've felt completely misinterpreted here more times than I can count. I decided a while ago that I don't need to explain myself unless I feel that I've actually done something harmful. If someone misunderstands me, then perhaps we are just not on the same page and that's absolutely fine, we don't have to be.

Keep coming back; you're doing great.




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shrnp


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In treatment centers you learn about brain chemistry, and some have family programs where loved ones can learn about it too. You spend your entire day in treatment doing something, it is all planned out. They have psychiatrist that will prescribe people anti-depressions and drugs for OCD ,and things like that. AA is an outpatient recovery program.

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Sharon 
lgnutah


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Hi Posies
I also recognized what you were trying to say: that that first drink the person chose to drink was a choice. The person could have said, I'll have water, or I'll have a soda, or No, thanks, or, Hey, I just realized I needed to be somewhere in 15 minutes.....etc etc, but instead they CHOSE to accept a drink.

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maryjane


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PNP,
I'm glad you started this thread too. I accept what you are trying to say. I too have a degree in science and tried to learn everything I could about alcoholism. I believe it is a real genetic disease (tends to run in families) and that first drink is a choice. The rest of the drinks will cost them everything, including their lives. I think it is part of being an AlAnon to try to understand and apply logic to this disease. We find out it is not logical. We find out it is everything that AlAnon, the program, says that it is.

It really bothers me when other people tell AlAnons to read the blue Big Book of AA. That is a totally different program and only has a tangental role in the understanding that an AlAnon needs. If I can talk about the Big Book, then I can talk about any other scientific stuff that I research. It ALL is not conference approved AlAnon literature and has no place in our meetings. However, MIP is also not conference approved so we are more lenient. I really don't even want to know if someone is in the other program (AA), or in Overeaters Anonymous or in Sex Addicts Anonymous or Gamblers Anonymous. It all uses the same 12 steps...... and is NOT a part of AlAnon. None of it should be at any of our meetings or conversations when we are talking AlAnon.

When you are learning about AlAnon, reading the literature, meeting other AlAnons, listening and talking AlAnon, you progress. Some progress faster or slower than others. Some linger at certain topics longer than others. It is a journey and we are all at different places on that journey. That is where "take what you like and leave the rest" has it's meaning.

Most of all you learn to do what it takes to take care of yourself.

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maryjane
DavidG


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RE: Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
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 Alanon spoken here... yes... around 1992 I went into a treatment centre- thought is might do me some good... I went there as a family member. They took us through the steps and parts of the AA Big Book. If I had been an AA member I might have felt that this was a breach of Tradition 8. I felt to some extent that the way the steps were presented- the training method- filtered its way back into the groups. This rather academic approach to the steps may actually suit some people. But over all I believe the best approach is with a sponsor, and a good group- where members can learn from off of each other.

Reading "Lois Remembers" I realise that the Big Book was the only source of information at one stage. Today, reading it at meetings may well be a breach. Having said that i do have a copy here at home and have read it many times!!! Oh yes...  ...but as a source of Alanon recovery I believe our higher power has given us the Alanon materials...



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shrnp


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Alcoholism as a
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maryjane, if you are talking about the origin of Alanon you can talk about the big book, it is no longer used as literature today in Alanon but it was used originally. There is also not any rule that says people who have recovered from drugs or alcohol can not talk about it. If that was the case then why do Alanon members go to open AA meetings to try and understand alcoholics. I think I am understanding it now, only give your opinion when someone wants it, if someone wants to say negative things about alcoholics in general, like we have a brain disease then we should just be quiet.

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Sharon 
mamalioness


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RE: Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
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hotrod wrote:

I agree completely IAH . I love the alanon slogan that suggests that when i try too hard to analyze and understand,it leads to inaction and paralysis. I have experienced this inaction so that now i accept the wisdom of alanon and the principles presented.

 I love the table card at meetings that states: "alanon spoken here".  I try to do the  same here at MIP

 Oh i can sure relate to this...........a recovery friend of mine told me that you go into a paralysis of alalysis......and yea,  INACTION......i try to make it simple....i read and I get on here and read, and I take what works and leave the rest, but i like to look at what the "winners"  the ones who are progressing...what are they doing?????   just a thought this is an awesome thread



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Enigmatic


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"It really bothers me when other people tell AlAnons to read the blue Big Book of AA. That is a totally different program and only has a tangental role in the understanding that an AlAnon needs...I really don't even want to know if someone is in the other program (AA), or in Overeaters Anonymous or in Sex Addicts Anonymous or Gamblers Anonymous. It all uses the same 12 steps...... and is NOT a part of AlAnon."

Oh dear...Well, perhaps someone should let Traditions Four and Five know that...and the 25+ references to Alcoholics Anonymous in Paths to Recovery - AlAnon's Steps, Traditions, and Concepts.

There is good news, however, it appears that despite their sloppiness, the WSO did manage to keep out all of the references to the Sex Addicts, Overeaters, and Gamblers Anonymous literature.  



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"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives."  - Paths to Recovery 
Bo


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mamalioness wrote:
hotrod wrote:

I agree completely IAH . I love the alanon slogan that suggests that when i try too hard to analyze and understand,it leads to inaction and paralysis. I have experienced this inaction so that now i accept the wisdom of alanon and the principles presented.

 I love the table card at meetings that states: "alanon spoken here".  I try to do the  same here at MIP

 Oh i can sure relate to this...........a recovery friend of mine told me that you go into a paralysis of alalysis......and yea,  INACTION......i try to make it simple....i read and I get on here and read, and I take what works and leave the rest, but i like to look at what the "winners"  the ones who are progressing...what are they doing?????   just a thought this is an awesome thread

I can absolutely relate to this as well, and I agree with both of you. Thank you both for posting this and the reminder. For me, with my journey, there was a distinct difference between someone explaining something to me, giving me insight, their perspective, etc., when it came to the alcoholic and what they were doing, why they were doing it, etc., and that helping me...versus...me going on an endless journey and quest to actually try and figure out and understand why the alcoholic is doing what they are doing and me getting stuck in that mode. The latter brought me to the paralysis by analysis, and that was preventing me from taking action, and the action I was motivated to take was change -- in me. It brought me to many other things -- pain, disappointment, expectations, slips with me getting sucked into the drama, chaos, turmoil, etc. For the former, I didn't have to take a class, read books, sit through lectures, etc. I didn't have to, nor did I want to spend years, even months, doing that. Now, that's just me. It was as simple as the frog and the scorpion. Did I need more substance, depth, yes, I probably did. But I learned. We all learn differently. However, with this knowledge, the more I tried to figure out why my AW was doing these things, the more I drove myself crazy. Now, again, that's just me. I heard early on -- you can't apply logic to an illogical, unhealthy person and situation. 

What I did focus on was me -- and that I kept "shopping for bread in a hardware store" as we call it. That's what I had to stop. That's what was causing me pain. That was on me, me causing my own pain, my own suffering, and me going back to the hardware store, sometimes daily, expecting to be able to buy bread there. That drove me to make change -- in me. I heard early on -- meeting makers make it. I went to meetings. Early on, I went to a meeting daily. When I hit rock bottom, I went to 2 meetings a day for 90 days. I did the work, every single day, with a sole focus of getting better, getting healthy. Some people take tylenol, some take advil. Is that take what you like and leave the rest? Perhaps it is, LOL.

Today, after 23 years in al-anon, doing what is healthy for me has become innate. For that I am grateful. I have slips. I had one on Saturday night. Years ago that would have knocked me off-track and my recovery time would have been days, maybe weeks. Today, last Saturday night, it didn't knock me off-track, but caused me a little wobble so to speak, and my recovery time was minutes. That's a result of me doing the work and what I've learned in al-anon.

Thanks to those who posted about what has helped them get better and get healthy. All the best.



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Bo

Keep coming back...

God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...

 
mamalioness


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Alcoholism as a
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Bo said_____ But I learned. We all learn differently. However, with this knowledge, the more I tried to figure out why my AW was doing these things, the more I drove myself crazy. Now, again, that's just me. I heard early on -- you can't apply logic to an illogical, unhealthy person and situation.

What I did focus on was me -- and that I kept "shopping for bread in a hardware store" as we call it. That's what I had to stop. That's what was causing me pain. That was on me, me causing my own pain, my own suffering, and me going back to the hardware store, sometimes daily, expecting to be able to buy bread there. That drove me to make change -- in me. I heard early on
****************************************************************************
Oh yea, "learning differently" but learning...some things I caught on pretty quickly, others??? omg...slower than a snail, but even a snail does move forward.....and I, too , tried to figure out why my qualifiers did this tome and that to me , instead of "ok...they DID it..they weren't sorry......so what R ya gonna do to help YOU" i said to myself

I figured out why I've had such a hard time getting past the anger in my grief cycles......the ones who trashed my life are DEAD...so whom do I direct my anger at???? that was/is my problem.....I can't cuss out any god b/c #1, I'm not sure anyone hears #2, it is not healthy when I cuss out the universal creator, then look to it for direction and protection.....so I just YELL....hit the chair with a tennis racquet and pretend they are still above ground adn I cuss them out good....it seems to be helping....writing letters, journalling........this is a bit off track, but I have an "ism" personality...I am control freak if I don't be vigilent and manage it......I can get into a trigger food adn eat till I pop......I can obsess over the stupidest things when I have ZERO control over it.........I also note that self talk helps....just talking things out with me and my inner child....I do cause my own pain.....my own suffering, as well.....I stopped trying to figure out WHY my parents did what they did to me.....I am a light force...they were dark forces...thats all the effort I am going to put in trying to figure out WHY....but i had to be in alanon for a while to see that......I want to get healthy.....I will pay the price to get there..do the work..make the effort....practice the stuff that is healthy....dump the unhealthy stuff or at least manage it........that is my take

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Rose, a work in progress!!!

KEEP IT SIMPLE_EASY DOES IT_KEEP THE FOCUS ON ME
el-cee


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RE: Alcoholism as a "brain disease"
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PosiesandPuppies wrote:

I wasn't going to post again, but in waiting a few days, I realized that is my codie behavior... I get my feelings hurt and I retreat... but I harbor resentment. So to break that cycle...

I think that there are persons here that are "stuck" on me claiming that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease. That isn't entirely what I said. Here is my quote:

"I truly believe that alcoholism begins as a choice, but due to chemical changes in the brain and neuroplasticity (the brain's capability to rewire itself in response to both internal and external environmental factors), it soon becomes an actual disease of the brain... and can and should, be treated like a disease (just like Type II Diabetes, Bi-Polar etc) by the medical community. To borrow a well-known phrase, 'When we know better, we do better!'"


As you can see, my opinion states that it BEGINS as a choice... whether the first drink is in your teens or as an adult... whether you have addiction "genes" or not... somewhere the person has to make a conscience decision to take that first drink. What happens after seems to be a combination of things that is different for every person - but the commonality is that there ARE chemical changes occurring in the brain of the drinker.

The point really, was that the brain is an organ of the body that is just now becoming fully explored. There are many neurological/chemical processes going on that the medical community are just now beginning to truly understand. When understanding that, it is much easier for the non-alcoholic to discard the "antiquated" thinking of "it's a choice" and accept this as a disease, plain, but not so simple - the brain is THE most complex organ of the body. I think with better understanding of this, it is easier for the newbie in Al-Anon to keep the focus on themselves... b/c at first it is very easy to fall back into the "why are they doing this? Why can't they just stop for me/family/kids?" type of thinking. It is hard for the newbie to wrap their heads around this family disease until they find peace from working on themselves through Al-Anon steps and principles... and that DOES take time.

BTW, I DID run this by my sponsor to kind of double-check my motives, and she told me, "As long as you do this with NO EXPECTATIONS, and remember that if he truly wanted to, he could take the time to research this." I was told if I posted this I would be met with some resistance, but I never expected this much push-back!

Thank you, David, for understanding my true intent of my post. 

In conclusion, I am NOT sorry for having/voicing my opinion. I do feel bad that perhaps it may have been misconstrued. I am doing what I need to do for MY health, no one else. Take what you like, and please leave the rest. Thank you to all those who contribute to this forum... I always seem to find what I need to help ME find my sanity.

 Picking up the first drink is a choice for everyone in their life. Alcoholism, the disease, has no choice part at all. If you listen to AA speakers and in fact Alanon speakers a common theme is a feeling of being different early in life, way before that first ever drink. A feeling of being separate and different and the way I have come to see the disease as a thinking disorder, where the person consistently has disturbed and distorted thought processes. The disease is there long before the alcohol. Alcohol is the first medicine for many to quieten a mind that seems to be very very difficult to live with from such a young age. For me this is where compassion comes in. Can you imagine a small child going through life feeling this way? On the outside of their family, their schoolmates and a mind telling them they are not good enough, they are stupid, they are inferior etc. I can relate, I have the disease of alcoholism inside me the way the alcoholic has, similar symptoms, same disease. I just dont have the allergic reaction to alcohol. There but for the Grace of God go I. We are the lucky ones, sick all the same but with the gift of sobriety.



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