I have had times when I could produce any kind of evidence I could think of to tell my wife that she had been drinking. All denied, explained away, or passed back to me as being my fault. I finally stopped bothering to tell her, or if I would tell her, stopped bothering to listen to her afterwards. JADE came in pretty handy at those times, no need to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. And no was a complete sentence for me at those points. Once she finally got into serious recovery things got much better on that front.

Kenny

(((Posies))). So sorry you're going through this... Sounds terribly similar to what I was experiencing sometimes when living with my abf, especially after going to Alanon meetings for a while. I tried, and, as I was getting into the program more, often succeeded in not answering insanely to the insanity. Two or three times when he was obviously lying big to my face I had told him simply "don't lie" and that surprisingly made him stop clinging to whatever it was. I didn't accuse, I just refused to pretend that I bought his big fat lie when he knew what happened and he knew that I knew that as well... Still, in the long run I suppose this didn't matter much anyway, because he just found something to argue about without lies as well... Sigh. Alcoholism is really cunning. Take care, one day at a time.

I came to the conclusion that my "he" demanded explanations for everything so that he could use them as ammunition. Every single time I tried to JADE anything with him and answer to his abusive interrogations, I was just handing him more and more ways to ensnare me in the crazy (and as long as he had me down there in his crazy hell with him, he was OK, right?) When I realised this, I really, really didn't want to do it any more.
No is a complete sentence and "I do not want to discuss this with you right now" does pretty well too. Following you around the house and demanding that you participate in his bullying IS abuse and in my case, I had to remove myself from it and live separately because I could no longer willingly subject myself to that. He would not accept my refusal to engage and I would not accept being subjugated like that any more.

Yet, I have to admit that while I was still living with him, but after I had spent my first couple of years learning and practicing al-anon tools- I was at a point where I KNEW that arguing with him was pointless and exhausting yet sometimes I did it anyway just to shut him up...if he thought he could still get me to engage, he tended to leave me alone for a while after that. Crazy but true; in a calculated way I would engage with his crazy drunken nonsense every once in a while to allow him to let off steam and calm himself down. Why? Because I was afraid of him. It's very sad, when I look back.

My point is, have you considered what your motives might be for continuing to engage and argue with an irrational, abusive drunk person? Is it that you literally can't escape it and feel that you are in danger? That's a pretty big red flag. Or is it a means of keeping him calm/managing his mood swings? Or do you still feel as if the "right words" will magically change his ways and make him see the light? Examining our motives can be a pretty helpful tool to use when we are stuck in a loop. You are worth so much more than a life dominated by someone else's imaginary anger.

MissM and Milkwood - thank you for your ESH.

Sometimes laughingly telling myself "of course" does work... but I guess as things build up it becomes harder to laugh it off.

Examining MY motives... hmmmmm. I have seen this a lot on the forum lately, so I guess my HP is telling me something, huh? LOL! I have took a long hard look at my part in all this. In other words, why do I stay? 5 years ago, when my AH went to rehab for meth abuse, I relied on my parents and state assistance to get by. The process to obtain assistance was an eye-opener to be sure. I am a petite, blonde white girl... so to say I was out of place was an understatement - I was literally the ONLY white person in those lines (on those days)...a good example was that everything handed to me (and I do mean EVERYTHING) in terms of paperwork was in Spanish. I would have to wait in line again, just to ask them to please give me paperwork that i could read. Then I had other caseworkers tell me "Honey, why are you even here?" just by looking at me. I made it through, but I was shell-shocked. In fact, I still have some sort of weird PTSD reaction when I think about being completely on my own, and having to go through that again (hyperventilating). With the help of my parents (helping pay rent) and food stamps, my then 10 year old son and I really thrived without our qualifier!! But once my recovering husband returned to our lives and our home, I vowed to never again put myself through that.

So in examining my motives, I guess the CRAZY has not gotten bad enough yet. Sad. So sad and pathetic when I read this back. I've spent a year going to doctor's visits, helping him through crisis after health crisis, hoping he could get better... secretly knowing that there was a larger problem I wasn't willing to acknowledge yet. It finally got so bad that it was blatantly staring me in the face and I had to accept I am now married to an alcoholic. I came back to Al-Anon and began to see some light. But the fact remains... I am scared to be poor - not that we are doing well now, but I find a way to creatively manage money and save for the things I know we need! And I love the house we rent... not big by anyone's standards, but in a good city, close to my parents, and very good schools for my son.

So yea, I guess I am choosing to stay in the crazy. Ack! Perhaps that is why it has taken me so long to look hard at this...it fills me with despair to be honest.

My head is not in a good place right now... going outside to enjoy my newly planted garden and my long awaited "me space" (my patio).

PnP - in my home, as I began to use the tools of detachment and boundary setting, my 'people' and their reactions got worse before the got better. We all had done the same dance for so very long, that when I changed, it totally screwed up the dance of the family. They behaved and reacted badly and I did all that I could, using the tools to stay on my course.

In scenarios like you describe, I used to repeat to myself, do not react - let go and let god. If they were persistent (and ... they ... were ...), my sponsor suggested I statements only with no reference to them. Including - I am really tired and comfortable where I am - I need good sleep tonight please. Or I am sorry you aren't ready for bed, I am - can I have some quiet time to rest? I ignored their questions and just kept speaking my truth as calmly as possible.

When mine are active, nothing I say or do will suffice any question they ask. I know this as the insanity of the disease. Things end faster here when I just act as if I am an island and do what I can to separate me from them - emotionally, spiritually and physically if possible/necessary. I have actually walked out of the home, gotten into my car and drove to a parking lot to nap/meditate/pray/call a program friend. I used the same strategy as before - if they came badgering upon return, I needed some air. I needed some processing time. I did all that I could to speak with a gentle voice (very contrary to me before recovery....I was either bossy, loud, condescending or just plain hateful/sarcastic). When mine figured out that my buttons had been moved/uninstalled, it got better.

The disease brings a whole host of insanity for all parties in a family. For me, considering what I could actually change/control (me) and a great sponsor made all the difference!! (((Hugs)))

I read Westman's comment and I had to say that I never knew this was actually in a book, my A ex-bf was constantly starting stupid arguments so he could leave and go out with his friends and drink. Other times, when we were not living together and I went to visit him, he would just tell me he was going to get really drunk knowing I would leave.

"I'm just starting to read "Al Anon Works" and one part comes to mind. That sometimes the A feels guilty about their problem and will start fights. Or uses a loved one's obsessive nagging about their drinking to then go out and drink. They come to depend on us to provide them with the rationale they need. Then when we start to work on ourselves and we stop engaging in this behavior it screws up their routine. The book mentions that they may come up with some very crafty ways to suck us into a new argument. "

Sharon, thank you for your ESH.

Bo - I am guessing you are a man, correct? Only b/c IMHO, it is easier to have the "I don't care, I am living my life attitude" when the non-alcoholic is not financially dependent on the qualifier. And I am not saying there aren't women out there completely financially capable of taking care of themselves... it's just the statistics say they are in the minority - even in this day and age! But I do like to read your straightforward ESH... makes me feel like I can do it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

The only reason I was questioning the forgetting is b/c he is so adamant about not having ANY alcohol. Yet, day after day he is incapacitated in some way! It is just crazy! The old me would take videos of him to prove my truth... but now I just don't even bother. But I hate it when he tells me I am crazy to think he is "using" when he hasn't had a drink in X number of days. I really believe that the alcohol has and is affecting his cognitive abilities, so why even bother?

Probably one of these days he'll blow up at me, and I will tell him GTFO! That will be the end of that.

PosiesandPuppies wrote:

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Sharon, thank you for your ESH.

Bo - I am guessing you are a man, correct? Only b/c IMHO, it is easier to have the "I don't care, I am living my life attitude" when the non-alcoholic is not financially dependent on the qualifier. And I am not saying there aren't women out there completely financially capable of taking care of themselves... it's just the statistics say they are in the minority - even in this day and age! But I do like to read your straightforward ESH... makes me feel like I can do it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

The only reason I was questioning the forgetting is b/c he is so adamant about not having ANY alcohol. Yet, day after day he is incapacitated in some way! It is just crazy! The old me would take videos of him to prove my truth... but now I just don't even bother. But I hate it when he tells me I am crazy to think he is "using" when he hasn't had a drink in X number of days. I really believe that the alcohol has and is affecting his cognitive abilities, so why even bother?

Probably one of these days he'll blow up at me, and I will tell him GTFO! That will be the end of that.

---

Yes, I am a man. My I don't care attitude isn't really simply just that. It more comes from focusing on me so that I get better, independent of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. Certainly I don't propose ignoring this entire situation. However, there is a difference between ignoring and detaching. Yes, the financial aspect can certainly have an impact, and it can change the situation. So, does it have an impact, yes. Does it make things impossible -- well, it can appear that way, however, there's always a way. Something. 

It is very common for the alcoholic to deny any and all drinking. For many reasons. The old way, with you taking videos -- that is a very unhealthy you. That is your sickness. So, congratulations on getting better from being that person! Good for you, great for you. I did the video thing too! I was very unhealthy. Now go to the next step -- don't even get into it with him. If you find him incapacitated, as you called it, detach, physically and emotionally -- and go do what you are going to do; go to a movie, go out, go sleep in another bedroom, take the kids and go to the mall, whatever. Just go. Now, he is by himself, and he will experience all of the consequences, ramifications, etc., of his own actions, decisions and drinking. It's all on and about him. You are out of it. And -- most of all -- you don't even address it with him. Now, he won't be telling you that you are crazy, wrong, whatever. No debate, no argument, etc. He doesn't have anything to be adamant about.

Does this mean you ignore this? No, it doesn't have to mean that. Establish some boundaries -- and they don't have to do with "drinking" per se. Also, you don't have to sleep in the bedroom. So he'll be pissed at you? Tough. You don't have to. You can have some boundaries around that too. Are you living your life to not make him angry? Are you living your life so that he is convinced you are loving and supportive? If so, you have other issues to address and work on. You don't engage, don't get into it with him, and don't sleep in the bedroom -- and if he keeps pushing you, you keep saying "I am not going to get into this with you right now" and after you establish a clear and focused boundary -- you can then revert to that. Don't argue about smell. LOL. Don't argue with him about "perception" and all that, LOL.

If the answer, or the ultimate eventuality, is you throwing him out. Good, so be it. Just make sure you get there and you do it in a healthy way. I think some further detachment and boundaries are the answer for you. You are doing a great job and keep up the good work -- the work on you.

 

And it is YOUR reality we care about!!

I put lavender oil on my pillow

((Posies)) I can really relate to your post. The dynamics you describe are so very familiar to me. You have received lots of ESH here so much amazing stuff. My AH denies drinking and at the end of the day it doesn't matter if he realizes he was drinking or not. He is going to believe what he wants to believe no matter what I do because the illness will always be stronger than me. I refuse to engage in discussions with my AH when he's drunk. I outright refuse now after many incidents like the one you describe I just keep repeating myself "I don't want to talk about this right now can we talk about it in the morning". My AH doesn't argue with me nearly as much as he used to. But in the past he would argue with me and pester me just the way you described. My perception of it is my AH believed that he was fooling me. Before Al Anon he could easily take the focus off his drinking by starting an argument with me or debating the small issues or pestering me until I snapped. He was able to manipulate me like that so he did. I also think he felt that if he could convince me that he hadn't been drinking when he had been drinking then his problems would go away. I find it interesting how you describe that he wasn't happy when you were on him about his drinking and now that you aren't he isn't happy. I have come to the conclusion that my AH is just not happy. Period. It doesn't matter what I do or don't do. I can't make him happy and I probably never could and I probably never will. That realization was kind of a relief. It allowed me to stop trying to make him happy, get his approval or recognition or whatever it was I wanted from him. The only person who's happiness I can change is me. So that is where I focus things on. Am I happy with my behaviour? Am I happy with how I handled things? etc. I know that's easier said than done but I did get there and I really am a lot happier. Being happier because I take care of myself and focus on myself has allowed me to deal with my AH in a better way. It also allows me to detach from him in a more healthy and loving way. I am able to enjoy time with him when it is pleasant and step away when it isn't. I don't do it perfectly but I am making progress.

This thread really resounds with me. I have felt it all at some point. I do believe now that almost always the lesson for me is acceptance. I have to quit fighting against windmills and accept that this person is who they are, I cannot change them or control them and I need to go back to step one again. I seem to be doing a waltz of step one, step two, step three, repeat. But this is a gentle program and I can survive for a long time just on those three steps. I hope that you are able to carve out some peace for yourself by remembering the steps and understanding that this disease is bigger than any of us. The denial that is birthed by the disease of alcoholism lives in an alternate reality and will do anything and say anything to maintain the status quo. Accepting the truth of the matter, that we cannot control our alcoholics leaves us the opportunity to take the focus off of them and place it on the one thing we can control, ourselves. Once we move the focus, we experience the freedom of making decisions based on our needs, wants and desires instead of the alcoholics. It is a daily struggle to keep myself in the moment and focused on myself, but that is where "One Day at a Time" comes in. Every now and then I find myself stepping in to the ring to defend myself against my alcoholic. I lose in one way or another every time. I had to make amends on Sunday for allowing myself to get caught in the heat of the moment and say things that were contrary to my belief of how I want to treat people. I don't want to be in the position of needing to make amends anymore. That to me is a big enough reason to drop the rope, and walk out of the conversation. Next time, I hope I will remember to let it go and not engage. As always, progress not perfection.

(((Hugs))) I hope you are having a better day.

Hi PosiesandPuppies
Yes it is a picture I took myself. I took it on my cell phone and I have a million more but I won't bore you with them. There is this park near us that has these beautiful cherry blossom trees and they only bloom for a very short period of time each year. I had always meant to go see them when they are in bloom yet I had lived in this city for over 10 years and never made the 20 minute drive to the park to see them.....until this year when I took my mom and daughter along. We had the best day that day and the trees were so beautiful. Connecting with nature is one of the ways I connect with my Higher Power . After I had this wonderful day I came across this info about them and it said that the Japanese believe that Cherry Blossoms represent the beauty and fragility of life. So I thought it would be the best picture I could find to represent myself :) I'm glad to hear the last couple of days have been better for you.