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Im going to paraphrase a recent conversation between (x?)abf and I. Im sharing this because, basically, he's saying everything I have wanted to hear for a long, long time and I don't know how I feel about it. I think they're the words a lot of us want to hear at some point from our partners/x partners. I don't expect anyone to interpret or gauge his words or to tell me what to do and I also know its a bit off to share a conversation like this but wow, hes just saying all the right things!!?? What I am looking for is some input about to what extent we continue to detach, and if maybe at some point we start hurting ourselves by just refusing to listen or trust. Like, at what point do we shut off the cynicism? Or am I maybe miles short of the target. I really don't want to get into what he means/doesn't mean anyway. I want to discuss the effect these kinds of words have on ME and my interpretation of the program. Is it good that I am wanting to listen and trust? Am I just relapsing? Is it ridiculous to just stick to the program forever when the threat has passed? Do I even have the equipment to know when the threat has passed yet? Am I just hearing what I want to hear, or am I refusing to listen to earnest words from a person that I love because I am sticking so stoicly to my program and insisting on detaching?? I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
ABF and I havent seen each other for about 6 months and we have lived apart for almost 2.5 years now. He's been sending me occasional messages on skype and I've been ignoring them and/or telling him in a few words, I'm sorry, its over. He hasn't been pushy aside from a few drunk episodes of sending me sad songs. As detailed in previous posts. He's basically been out of my life. His brother says he's very sad but he's OK. He misses you but he's doing alright. I have been, I guess, over him but pretty sad. I miss him but I'm pushing on.
We did make an agreement ages ago that we would go and see Rogue 1 on boxing day, as friends.
He called me on Christmas night, very meek and polite, "are we still going to see a movie as friends tomorrow?" and I was a bit stunned.
I said yeah. I wont get into my reasons; maybe I just wanted to see him in person and see how it felt after all this time. Actually, that was pretty much my reason and I got straight into it, didn't I? I wont get into it, my ass. I'm such a liar.
He was here circa 45 minutes later (thats how long it takes to drive from his place to my place if you drive like Satan himself is chasing you and you dont much fancy talking to the dark lord that particular day).
Anyway, when he arrived he was very sober and presentable, he came bearing gifts, and he had a lot to say.
Basically, (and I am paraphrasing, remember) "Babe, I miss you. This is hell. I cant do it. I go to work and I save money and I sit in my room and I don't even know what I am doing it for because without you, everything is just empty. I don't even see the point. I'm just going through the motions and I don't even know why."
He has actually held a job and saved, thousands and thousands of dollars. I didnt know he was capable of that. It's impressive. Good work, buddy. He says its for one day, when I take him back and we go travelling. Hes also maintained a large bank balance for over a year without gambling it which is pretty cool stuff. Yeah boy. Go you.
Still, I tried to tell him, "I cant be your reason for living babe. That's too much pressure and it's not healthy".
"Sure, I know that. But that's still how it is. I can't go out and invent some reason to be excited about life just to appear healthy, can I? I've tried to get excited about a million things. Its still just you. There isn't another you. I could date a million women and they wouldn't be you. Everything I want to do, I want to do with you. That's my truth. Deal with it".
Touche.
Yeah, thats pretty much how I feel. We have a pretty unique understanding. I've never met another human being who gets me like he does and I guess its the same for him. I cant imagine finding a guy who gets me like he does. I mean come on, I'm pretty freaking weird lol.
Anyway, the next words were the killers. Paraphrased, remember. (But pretty concisely, I think). He uses a lot more F words and C words and colloquilaisms that wouldnt make any sense if I tried to write them down.
"Look, here's the thing. The way I treated you when we were together was effing disgusting. I feel sick thinking about it. I've had a lot of time to contemplate what I did to you, and I've realised that I was basically drunk on the power. I had so much power. It felt good. Everything I did and said drove you crazy and you tried so effing hard to make me happy all the time and I just got drunk on it; it was like a drug. I've never really been important to anyone before and with you, I felt like god. I got off on hurting you and seeing you turn yourself inside out trying to make me happy. I nearly destroyed you and I knew I was doing it too. There's no excuse for that. Its awful. All you did was try to love me and be a parent to *&^&%$ and you didn't even have any time to be you. Its horrible. What I did was horrible.
(pause. what? I mean I dont see it exactly that way, I played a big part, but hearing him see his part in it was a bit of a mind-F%%%)
"I stopped you from living your life, I took advantage of how you are and I just played it like a f'ing game. You are the best thing that ever happened to me, and I treated your life like a game. I can't fix it now. I can't go back. I don't know why you are even talking to me. I don't deserve that. What I do know is that I have experienced what its like to lose you for real now and I cant stand it. I didn't think it was possible to lose you. I thought I owned you. When you left me, it was just such a F%^$ing shock. . Its unbearable. Knowing I lost you has been the worst thing I have ever felt. I swear I have learnt from it. If you are ever insane enough to give me another chance, I swear, I swear I will never, ever do any of that stupid s$%# again. I'll remember how this felt, and I just wont. Being an asshole to you again would be an unacceptable risk".
I like that line, an unacceptable risk. Its something I would say. It computes.
And it went on anyway. A lot of tears, and a lot of "please babe. I'm so effing sorry. I understand what I did and I swear I won't ever be like that again. I've been working so hard to change. You aren't even there to see it but I'm still doing it. I don't want to be that guy ever again".
Arent they the words we ache to hear?
I said my piece and basically told him that I need to feel safe, and that he will never have keys to my house and that if he turns up drunk and tries to force his way in, I will call the police and he nodded his head like crazy and said "you should. I swear I wont do that but if it happens then I absolutely want you to call the police".
He stayed for a couple of days (daughter is away for 3 weeks) and it was nice. He was nice. Being close to someone was nice. I've been so damn lonely. It was hard to say no and I didn't even know for sure why I should say no.
I don't know. I wonder at what point I am cutting off my nose to spite my face. I still love the guy. And its not like he's asking to move in with me again. He's just asking me to consider us a "thing" again and see him sometimes on the weekends when my daughter is away (that's my stipulation, not his. He and daughter get along pretty well mostly but I cant go there; as long as she is under my roof, I need to maintain a safe space and that doesn't involve having potentially volatile people in the house when she is here).
Still, we've still got something I consider pretty special. No one else can make me laugh until I can't breathe anymore. And I like laughing. No-one else understands everything I say and remembers and knows insane things about me. I miss him. No matter how much time passes, I still love him.
I dont know. Maybe Im just insisting on being alone because I think I should, and maybe I don't have to be. God, I've been so unhappy. Its relentless. IDK.
-- Edited by MissM on Friday 30th of December 2016 05:10:18 AM
Is it ridiculous to just stick to the program forever when the threat has passed? Do I even have the equipment to know when the threat has passed yet? Am I just hearing what I want to hear, or am I refusing to listen to earnest words from a person that I love because I am sticking so stoicly to my program and insisting on detaching?? I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
Great, well thought out, thought-provoking posts Ms M. I copied a small segment above and would like to comment on that.
I have found that Al-Anon tools work in every phase of my life- whether I'm dealing with the alcoholic or not . By keeping the focus on myself, trusting HP, living one day at a time, not projecting these are everyday tools that keep me safe and growing. Detachment with love is a primary tool that I use every day. It simply means that I understand I'm powerless over people places and things and that I respect their right to live life, and then I am also responsible to live my life as well, with courage serenity and wisdom. If I didn't use these tools, I would revert back to my old negative tools of people pleasing ,anger, resentment, manipulation, judgment, criticism, forcing solutions, which did not work
I do hear you and understand deep feelings that you you have with this gentleman and he apparently has the same for you. It does appear that he has made every effort to change and that is a great achievement. I am concerned about his"God Complex" and his honesty about how he treated you and why .
It sounds as if you're willing to establish boundaries and keep an open mind on the relationship. Remember you are not the same person that began this relationship. You have grown and changed and have new tools to live by. YOu are back at school and can drive
It is great that you're enjoying each others company and continuing to do so. With the boundaries that you spoke about as a way to stay safe,and with this Board and alanon tools I pray that you will never abandon yourself again.
Positive thoughts on the way
-- Edited by hotrod on Friday 30th of December 2016 07:10:59 PM
You're right, Betty.
I don't need to "mind control" everything. Isn't it funny that I have learned to "let go and let HP" in so many areas of my life but when this relationship rears up, I'm suddenly desperate to seize the reigns and be in complete control.
I guess there were some pretty terrible days in the past and I am afraid of them coming back. That's logical, I think. But even if they did, things are different now. Even if the worst happened, he doesn't have keys to my house. I have security doors and bars on my windows. I'm not in the same vulnerable position that I was in before. I think it's logical to think of this stuff, but not to obsess over it. Because if I thought he was still likely to be a threat, why would I be even entertaining the idea? The answer is, I don't think it's likely. I think it's remotely possible though, and if I am confident enough to push on regardless then why am I obsessing? I've made a threat assessment, made sure I am safe anyway, and now what am I doing? Projecting and imagining the worst possible scenarios. Obsessively.
I don't know if this makes sense but my obsessing feels disconnected from reality. It feels illogical and pathological.
I'm a reasonably smart woman, I think. I've spent my life leading with my heart and I've worked hard to change that and give my brain a turn. I've worked a good program so far (I think) and I intend to continue to work a good program. As much as my heart wants what it wants, I believe I have learned to place my safety second only to that of my child and what I am doing right now is just...obsessing. I mean, what has happened, really? I've spent a few days with him and agreed that we can see each other again under very controlled circumstances. It's not like I've accepted a marriage proposal.
I don't know if his honest appraisal of how he behaved and why is a bad thing; I thought it was actually pretty good that he had thought so deeply on why he did what he did, and he had come to the conclusion that he was drunk on power, because that was exactly how it was. I let him have complete control of me. I thought it was sort of cool that he was able to see it and how repulsed he seemed by it.
I won't abandon myself again. I am sure of that. But I do love this person and I believe he loves me, and he has worked pretty hard at change. I want to give it a chance. It's not like I can't change my mind, right?
Nothing is written in stone . I did my marriage "one day at a time" and always marveled when we celebrated another year . We did celebrated 23 years and then he passed from cancer. Stay connected to program and this Board and you will do great.
It's such a difficult thing, deciding to trust someone who has hurt you so severely and consciously so (you relayed that he knew what he was doing and got off on it). I have learned recently that people can be addicted to one another. My wife is my qualifier and she spent years pushing me away/running away only to come right back and say the absolute perfect words. It never lasted long. Two months ago she said those perfect words, accompanied by action. Within two weeks she asked for a divorce and informed me she was engaged to someone else. Suffice to say I can barely function. My point is not to make this about me or to equate her to your (x?) abf. I am simply saying that sick people such as addicts may need a person like they need their drug of choice. It isn't easy to switch that drug of choice, so they will do anything to get it back. That being said- it isn't impossible to be replaced as someone's drug (as my situation shows). I am aware this is a bit of a ramble, I just felt compelled to tell you I feel for you and admire your awareness no matter how difficult and confusing it may be. I hope for your sake he is the exception to the rule/norm and he changes as he has promised. It is not out of the realm of possibility. Please take care of yourself.
Has he missed you and treasured your connection enough to enter and work a formal program of recovery for a good long time? That would be my first question. Maybe my only question. Missing someone, having insight into problems and dynamics, remorse for bad behaviour, loneliness, regret for lost chances ... those are available to anyone. The ability to follow through on changing the dynamics is only available to people who have worked a solid program of recovery. The ability to make grand, persuasive statements about how things are going to be different is pretty much a speciality of addicts. They are powerful statements because they believe them themselves. The fact that the statements are designed to rope us back into the game is also a feature of those statements, in my experience. "He swears the stove has cooled down by now ... he wouldn't say that if it weren't true ... it would be so wonderful if it were true... "
The other times you have gotten close to him again, you've had a while of calm nice behaviour, and then some major drunkenness. My own opinion is that you deserve way better than a guy who goes on a bender and behaves badly. Those better guys are out there. My own opinion is that they would be delighted to find you.
I believe in the power to change and whatever happens to have someone own their part of their own volition is huge. Huge. My own marriage is a day at a time now. The alcoholism is still an issue whether it's active or not. It will always be for both of us. Only you know what this relationship has the power to give and to take from you S a person. Only you can decide which way it weighs. There will always be options within either choice. Life always wants us to be our best selves and always reaches out, that I truly believe.
Gosh, this must be so confusing for ya. And his words must have blown your mind! His words as well as his body language and face and the feelings he was radiating at you - what an experience for you. Isn't it funny how things turn out?
How AWESOME is it that he's made all those changes?! Wowza. Impressive and inspiring.
Sounds like you two have one of those deep, indestructible, enduring love connections. It sounds/feels like you are fundamentally best friends as souls or something - I dunno how to describe that thing. My parents actually have it, but they've been apart for 20-something years and cannot be together.
And you're right, it IS the ultimate dream to those who love an alcoholic or otherwise dysfunctional person, to hear: the shock and pain of losing you is enough to make me get my sh*t together, and keep it together. Losing you again is unacceptable and that is why I will never, ever resort to those old behaviors again.
That's the dream that keeps us there too long. That's the dream the fuels so much of our craycray behavior. That's the dream debunked with 'didn't cause it, can't cure it - NOTHING we can do, be, pray, say or think can change them' - the thing that is so difficult to accept for a long time. Partly because we KNOW these people do love us.
To be totally honest with you I see a lot of codependance in his words that you relayed and I'm sure you're astute enough to see that too. It is very difficult when people we love and have had such a deep yearning for, people we've put so much effort into loving enough that they will change, come at us with all those feelings. It is a head and heart argument then. It makes perfect sense why you're thinking: should I really deny myself the joy of love and companionship based on these austere logical thoughts?
I guess all you can do is trust your own heart, and take it as slow as possible. Is it possible to keep some rational, realistic cynicism AND be open to observing whether those patterns of owning you/addicted to you are truly healed? The great thing is you've got the wisdom and strength to deal with whatever happens now.
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You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters. Plato
