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Why is it that they will never acknowledge or validate anything you say you feel or have felt? I don't understand that side of the A.
I'm working on myself so that I don't search for validation anymore, because it's a fruitless effort..but could someone explain why they do that? Ie: if you say "this happened" and give them black and white facts, it doesn't matter. They won't acknowledge that. They will blow smoke around you for as long as you inquire. And if you keep pushing (a bad habit I'm breaking myself of) they will finally concede by telling you you're acting __________ (insert invalidating word).
What is that about?
Why this is typical behavior for an A and where does it stem from?
Hi Sarah It sounds like Denial to me Here is the officiai definitation of the word
Simple Definition of denial
: a statement saying that something is not true or real : a statement in which someone denies something
psychology : a condition in which someone will not admit that something sad, painful, etc., is true or real
I also feel the same way. My ex ABF would do this all the time. He would always fallow any denial with pointing out something I had done to hurt him and then by saying how self-aware he is and I'm just not. I know that he would try and make me feel insecure and crazy because that's how he feels.
I understand now from meetings everything he does is him just trying to protect himself so he can keep going as he is, and that he is totally unaware of it.
One thing that became clear to me is anything I did to try and make him aware of it didn't worked. For 3 years we went in circles. Finally I gave up and realized he can only do this on his own. That me trying so hard to make him aware of it was even making it worse. Like he was doing it more just to fight back my trying to control it. I knew I could not control myself from trying to fix it I was not strong enough yet so I left. Left to fix me. I played a big part in it all and I need to get well just as much as him.
I experience it too and he has been in AA for 16 years. He is trying to protect himself (from me?!). He accuses me of stuff that he is doing. "Don't say it with that tone of voice." I end up just being quiet. I can talk to my friends about complicated stuff. It is just safer. I let him start the conversations and I will join if I feel it is safe for me. I am tired of hitting my head against that wall. Don't inquire. You will know when your HP wants you to know. Or, you will never know but will live a more serene life.
I can answer this from my own experience....you may not like the answer though. Because he/I/we don't see it as you see it. We could all go to a show, and see a movie. Each of us would pick up on different parts of the movie. Each of us would retain different things from the film, the actors, etc.
When we walked out, we might agree on parts of it - the story line, the funny parts, etc. But - I guarantee that we would all retain and 'see' things in the details differently.
I agree that part is denial. Part is just because they see it differently. Presenting facts and details does nothing for a past event. The internet is a great example - if we pick any topic or situation, you could find millions of articles supporting your position as could I.
For me personally, when I was still using, I drank to black out stage often/always. So - when folks begin to go down memory lane - good or bad - I know I act like a bump on a log. I honestly do not remember huge chunks of my life from my active stage. It's humiliating to admit so being quiet is one way of dealing with it - my own defense mechanisms. Today, if someone says, "Do you remember when...." I tighten up - even after 29 years, there are situations I do not recall. My clean time still has not caught up with remembrances....good or bad - in some situations.
I guess - the best suggestion I got - like all other things - don't take it personally....It's really about them/us - not others.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I found that as I detached from the behaviour and stopped reacting to it or taking it personally, it dried up and he changed to more attentive, caring tactics (thats the wrong word probably but I'm rushing lol). I think he previously did all of those things to undermine my confidence/security in myself and the relationship because previously it worked; it destabilised me and made me feel 'not good enough". And i doubt he actually thought it through and realised why but I think after being raised in similar relationships people learn how to instinctively undermine people's confidence to keep them 'where they want them". What interested me was the way he did modify his behaviour and obviously started to see it as innapropriate when i started to value myself and refute/refuse to engage with negativity or neglect of myself. I think previously, for both of us, it was 'just the way relationships worked" (one partner makes the other feel like garbage and the garbage partner constantly seeks validation)....(monstrous symbiosis lol) Anyway of course the objective isn't to understand someone else's motivations but that was how I understood it and once I did start seeing it as possible insecurity on his part rather than an inexplicable urge to make me feel like crap it affected me a lot less. I think I started to understand this after reading "getting Them Sober" which is an excellent book if you haven't read it. I found not engaging with the behaviour and stating how i deserved to be treated (ie "i won't listen to this thanks, I'll talk to someone who makes me feel valued") helped me feel I'd stated my truth and slowly got the message across. If people value you I guess they'll modify the way they treat you even if it isn't enough; I know all of my qualifiers treat me a lot differently now to the way that they used to. They havent changed their lifestyles or minds, they've just learned that i wont be treated like crap and adjusted accordingly. Sorry this is full of typos ad a bit of a mess, i'm on the fly but wanted to respond to this since I know how very wounding it is and how miserable it made me for so long. hugs.
-- Edited by MissM on Wednesday 9th of November 2016 08:21:58 PM
Hmmm...one tendency I noticed in myself was to blame behavior or traits on alcohol or the alcoholic that in fact, were not exclusive to alcoholics. Something I came to realize, and still work to remember, is that most of the unpleasant traits I could find in an alcoholic can also be found in non-alcoholics and non-drinkers.
Ultimately for me, I feel that it matters not whether something I find intolerable is typical of other alcoholics or has a special name, etc. Instead, I only need to determine how I will respond with love and guard my serenity. This helps me conserve energy for what is important, rather than using energy focusing on others.
Just my experience, some program tools that gave me strength, and what gives me hope when things are tough. Take what you like and leave the rest, and hang in there
__________________
Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
Also it helped to look at ways i was treating him similarly and make a commitent to myself not to engage in that behaviour ie treating him the way i expected to be treated. When i thought about it I too put him down or tried to undermine his confidence/ refused to validate him especially when i felt insecure ie if I percieved other females were a threat I'd be sure to spend days letting him know that no-one else would possibly have him because he was this and that, you know...terrible really but it seemed like all was fair.. Worth thinking about ways you might be unconsciously doing the same thing and working on those too as it helps to shift the whole dynamic if it isnt just one sided..
-- Edited by MissM on Wednesday 9th of November 2016 08:33:53 PM
Two things spring to mind, denial and communication skills/desire.
With my foo (family of origin) the two are firmly enmeshed and entrenched. Occasionally honest communication takes place, usually years later, and only when its that individuals idea. We are all stubborn in that respect: no one tell me what to do or I'll do the exact opposite, nose scissors face spite. So unhealthy. But we are who we are and I do love them when I don't have to have anything to do with them.
With my husband, I can honestly say love and a desire to see from the other persons perspective existed from the outset, so when we are able to communicate ie neither of us in the throws of our respective and numerous isms, we do because for now, somewhere we want to. None of which is set in stone and none of which would be possible had I not hightailed it back to alanon a few years into marriage. I'd simply lost the plot with anger and had no boundaries.
A lot of really good stuff here to ponder. I don't mind anyone telling me I need to check myself, I'm not here to be coddled I really do want to get better. I appreciate all the responses!
I guess the thing for me is, I'm used to being the wrong one. I was always the one hurting them it seemed. Until one day I woke up & realized that I'm actually not all bad, they (FOO) don't like who I am.
So I stopped apologizing & started living how I want to.
With that has come a landslide of crap, which I will happily wade through if it means there's a solid steady "me" on the other side of it.
Because I stopped enabling, I'm getting all kinds of flack.
And I know my own fault here is that I'm trying to JADE up and down, when I don't need to. That causes more aggravation and anger all around.
But when I do, apparently entire conversations never happened, major parts of "the movie" are either missing or entirely made up. It's so frustrating & I just wondered where that comes from.
Ie: I was told the other day that there were sections in my divorce papers that talked about my parents forcing me to marry my ex.
I said #1, where did you get that idea? And what possible purpose would having a section about my parents have? Does it help with the division of custody and assets? No... so it's not logical & 2) I have all of the docs saved and accessible, I'll hand them over so you can find that part and show me.
Of course, then she told me I was upsetting her and I was lashing out.
And she's right, I did get frustrated. I have no patience left for this stuff.
i know I need to use tools in situations like that, but I am not yet that program savvy and I still fall back on bad habits (JADE)
I know I should walk away, not engage.
I guess I just wondered where this mannerism comes from. Protecting the alcoholics drinking seems understandable for me.
If it didn't happen in their mind, nothing's wrong. Right? Well except for the out to lunch, dramatic ungrateful daughter Lol
I actually just assumed that you were only talking about a partner and so I was only thinking about the dynamics that existed between my XA and I; sorry!! Foo stuff is harder; I have a qualifier that just makes everything up to suit whatever dramatic conversation she wants to have as well and oh, boy, talk about a trigger. Gotta admit I just avoid conversations or cut them short for my own sanity now (not always easy). Usually the statemets are prefaced with 'I thought you" followed by a fabricated thing she 'thought" I said/did/wanted/etc. Makes me crazy just thinking about it, lol. If i say calmly "that's not true" or "I never said that' it's met with 'well what are you getting all defensive for" etc (omg lol)
I know that the more time I spend talking to people that don't play those games (ie talking things through with other al-anoners or healthier people in general) the more I can sort of let it roll off my back wheras when i talk mostly to qualifiers I tend to get more upset by it.
-- Edited by MissM on Thursday 10th of November 2016 12:46:09 AM
I think its denial too. I like how you are working towards freedom from looking for the validation and searching for your needs to be met in places where they dont have it to give. Good for you.x
(((Sarah))) - the first and best gift I got from the program was PAUSE. Just adding a break in my thinking process when others were doing what they do (FOO, qualifiers, others....) gave me a brief flicker of sanity to realize that so very often, my best response is no response. I don't have to tell anyone that they are wrong or that I disagree. I repeat Bless Them, Change Me over and over and over again.
When confronted and forced to respond to craziness, more often than not, I will just say that I don't remember. I know that they are full of nonsense and I know my truth. However, I no longer feel the need to be right - I choose joy every time. I no longer have to or want to 'win' - my sanity and serenity are worth more to me than a war of words.
When I first started, I thought this was door-mat behavior. My sponsor suggested that it was grace instead. I am only a doormat when I am unable to keep myself from getting used. When I use the restored faith and power of a HP to make an informed decision to not engage, that's adulting. My self-worth and self-esteem and thinking were so distorted that I assumed it was weak to avoid debates/being right. Now I realize it's truly powerful and so rewarding.
I think, in the name of blood, our families believe they have a license to give an opinion and to judge. If I don't want their judgment and opinion, then I need to learn what to share and what not to share. It just is what it is and with all things in recovery, I look for what is working instead of what is not working or needs improvement.
I too love your processing. What I had to learn is that at the end of the day, when all is said and done, the only ones I need to align myself with and please are my HP and myself. The rest all takes care of itself. The better I treat me, the better I treat others. It seems so crazy but it's true....in my recovery. I'm not talking about superficial things like spending money, hair, nails, etc. - instead I am talking about my health, my heart, my sanity - my inners. When I feel aligned with peace, I am more tolerant of the crazy makers around me. When I am not well centered, I'm more likely to judge/snap/react. Keeping the focus on me and my needs certainly rewards me well beyond the here and now.
(((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I grew up with a narcissistic parents .. What you describe fits that behavior based upon my experience. I have to be very aware and very careful not to buy into what they are selling in terms of ( them saying to me) I did xyz it's really not that bad you just complicate everything. I imagined what happened. If it did happen that way it's really all your fault. I no longer look to people who lack the ability to validate me because of their shortcomings be it guilt shame or whatever. I love the saying stop looking for bread at the hardware store. I would suggest you talk to your sponsor about what you need .. You can certainly stand in your truth quietly and state it. A's especially ones active in drink or thought lack the ability to deal with their laundry list of defects and it's just not my job to point out what they can't give me. Same is true for my parental unit. I will never get a real apology without a big gigantic BUT or BECAUSE attached to the end of it with a rebuttal as to why they really don't owe me an apology. Keep working your program you are on the right track for you. Hugs.
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
To me, its about ego. I remember our first outing together, my sponsor was driving home from a meeting and I listened as she described my AH as an "Egomaniac with an inferiority complex"
"OMG YES!!! Thats it!!!!!" I exclaimed.
Calmly she replied, "Do you relate to that at all?"
It was like a brick to my forehead. The problem is all HIM right, he's the one drinking??
I like Enigmatics reply because it points out how my sponsor brilliantly told me of the similarities... how dis-ease is all about FEAR for self....selfishness.... self-seeking.....self-protection..... proving...... forgetting who we are and who God is....
Fearful ego tries to boost itself by acting grandiose..... superior..... making others feel small...... making noise........ having the last word....... self-importance.. saving face..... anything to be right".....
And in Al-anon, we learn to assert our divine nature through the help of the steps. I so appreciate the reminder, "It's not personal" because when I take things personally, my ego is triggered again.... when they act like "that." Their dis-ease triggers my dis-ease.
I'm gonna keep coming back.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 10th of November 2016 10:54:02 AM
To me, its about ego. I remember our first outing together, my sponsor was driving home from a meeting and I listened as she described my AH as an "Egomaniac with an inferiority complex"
"OMG YES!!! Thats it!!!!!" I exclaimed.
Calmly she replied, "Do you relate to that at all?"
It was like a brick to my forehead. The problem is all HIM right, he's the one drinking??
I like Enigmatics reply because it points out how my sponsor brilliantly told me of the similarities... how dis-ease is all about FEAR for self....selfishness.... self-seeking.....self-protection..... proving...... forgetting who we are and who God is....
Fearful ego tries to boost itself by acting grandiose..... superior..... making others feel small...... making noise........ having the last word....... self-importance.. saving face..... anything to be right".....
And in Al-anon, we learn to assert our divine nature through the help of the steps. I so appreciate the reminder, "It's not personal" because when I take things personally, my ego is triggered again.... when they act like "that." Their dis-ease triggers my dis-ease.
I'm gonna keep coming back.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 10th of November 2016 10:54:02 AM
I know my ego is WAY out of whack right now. My ego is what helps me fall back into the trap of right fighting.
I know I have narcissistic qualities. It's what I was taught. I'm a grown woman now though, and I see how that attitude is not helping me. And I'm trying to pull away from it - recover.
It's this weird crossroad between enabling and detaching that is causing me all sorts of garbage. I used to just go with the flow.. build up resentments.. blow up, everyone would tell me I'm crazy..then in an effort to get things quiet for myself again, I would start to enable. That cycle is killing me!!
In my struggle to detach I am causing myself more problems by 'telling my side'. In the end, no one needs to hear it, I'm the only one that needs to be OK with it.
By telling my side, I'm inviting all of the manipulation of time and events. They're going to continue to blame everything on this/that/or the other, I have to learn how to say "ok". And walk away from it. I'm not there just yet.
Like I mentioned in my previous post about the legal documents. I know what's in them, I have hard copies right in front of me. I can see that what A says is not true. Why do I still have to fight that instinct to give proof so I am believed? A lifetime of having my thoughts and emotions invalidated has turned me into an expert JADE'er. I have to actively tell myself not to engage & it doesn't work all the time. I could bring up a million scenarios over my lifetime where this has happened. My thinking and thought processing is such a mess. Especially with all of this new program awareness.
One day at a time!!!!!!!! I am so anxious to move forward and have all of this stuff OVER WITH. I need to keep reminding myself to take ODAAT!!
Ego is a huge issue for both Alcoholics and Al-Anoners. I believe it's broader than the disease but we try to stay focused here on that. I had a super-sized ego when I arrived - always knew what was right/wrong, knew other's motives, knew all the statistics and had all the answers. I am so glad that we learn to just focus on us and our spiritual path - I no longer need to be all-knowing and I'm so grateful. I can allow others to be as sick as they need to be and it no longer affects me - often instead, it brings me extreme gratitude that it's no longer me that's so crazy and sick.
I used my ego and my smarts to mask my fear. If others saw what I knew instead of who I am, they wouldn't see the real me. The real me is imperfect, affected by a disease I have no control over and just looking to stay on the serenity path. I love our program and my HP and how they guide me. I've had two situations rise up in two days, and by praying about it, talking with my sponsor and using my tools, they've been annoyances instead of crisis.
ODAAT saves me over and over and over again. When situations happen, I can actually see the facts, stop the projection screen as soon as it starts up and just deal with what I need to, for this day only. Our program works so well when we work it. I see others who are so full of anger that they bash the alcoholic over and over again. I suppose it's better they do it in the program and hope they don't continue at home. I'm grateful that God restored me to sanity enough to realize it's a disease and not a choice.
Sarah - I'd just send the document on via email and say FYI. I will say that my sponsor has been awesome at showing me how to 'pass the monkey back' when someone drops it off unexpectedly. In your scenario, I don't need to write anything more - FYI is very much like Yes/No. One word answers are awesome tools for someone like me who did not understand how people got by without JADE-ing everything!!!
(((Hugs))) - you got this, one day at a time, even if the whole world is mad - you got this because you got a program that you're working!!!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Calm Lady - I hear you on heavy weight and exhausting....it took me a while to see/realize these 'isms' in me. I love how our HP reveals exactly what we need to see/hear when it makes the most sense! I no longer have to point out to anyone at any time how I 'see things' or the facts/statistics etc...
My new favorite saying when I am asked questions from button-pushers is, "Google is your friend"....a great slogan for those we deal with who are still stuck in wanting to be right and directing the world. I love how the more I change the less important so many things appear to be. Putting down my ego, setting aside my pride and just living my truth and focusing on me has been calming, freeing and life-changing!!
(((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Calm Lady - I hear you on heavy weight and exhausting....it took me a while to see/realize these 'isms' in me. I love how our HP reveals exactly what we need to see/hear when it makes the most sense! I no longer have to point out to anyone at any time how I 'see things' or the facts/statistics etc...
My new favorite saying when I am asked questions from button-pushers is, "Google is your friend"....a great slogan for those we deal with who are still stuck in wanting to be right and directing the world. I love how the more I change the less important so many things appear to be. Putting down my ego, setting aside my pride and just living my truth and focusing on me has been calming, freeing and life-changing!!
(((Hugs)))
I had made my life far harder than it needs to be. I am so blessed in my circumstances yet still I had these heavy weights around my neck.
Setting aside my pride and ego is bringing me such freedom. A relief to be able to be wrong!
Hahaha, yes I have become a professional don't knower! I love it. Let people find thingsbout and do things for themselves. I see now it made me feel superior to be the 'go to' person. insecure mug, more like!
Haaa, I like me. The quiet little lady minding her own business. Love it. Love it. Love it.
It has been gently revealed to me. At a pace I can cope with. I love not having to run the world any more!
Big learnings for me in past few days. Healthy self esteem growth.
Have a lovely day, I am enjoying my Friday.
Hugs back to you. Across the several thousand miles.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Friday 11th of November 2016 09:06:32 AM
hey there SarahGee I can really relate to your post and thank you for your sharing. I think that a lifetime of being invalidated made me the way I am too.
I used to be a big fighter. I took pride in "telling it like it is" and being scrappy. Turns out all that fighting to try to get my AH to acknowledge something was a futile effort. Denial has been a huge part of our relationship I had my denial and he had his. I don't fight for acknowledgement much anymore. It took me a long time to realize that I don't need him to Acknowledge what happened to make it true or accurate. I can validate my own feelings and interpretation of events. I can trust myself again. Such a great gift from the program.
So when the sky is blue and he insists on stating it's brown with purple polka dots I can take comfort in trusting myself that it is blue. I can state it simply "Looks blue to me". WHat I found when I did more detaching from him was that I think a lot of his denial was based on him thinking he could convince me to believe something else. If I don't Justify Argue Defend or Explain there is no argument just a difference of opinion. Now for the first time in my relationship of over a decade he's starting to say "yeah you are right the sky is blue". And I really believe that it's because I don't push him and fight so much. I don't argue with him so much. And I have shown that I am confident enough in trusting myself that I don't need anything from him to prove to me that the sky is blue. I believe learning to have faith in a HP and being able to trust your own judgement are two of the best things this program offers around this.
