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I'm really struggling with differentiating between consequences and punishment. I am so angry at my husband (from whom I am separated) that my petty and furious side would like to punish him for all he is putting me through. My more mature side that has been learning more and more about recovery knows that is not helpful. My codependent side isn't sure where the difference is, and has a really hard time sticking with consequences. I like collaboration and equality, not "making" someone do something or preventing them from doing something.
Over the past six weeks, I have tried to enact consequences focused on protecting my kids and my own peace of mind. But I am feeling so uncomfortable, telling him what he can and can't do. My internal feeling about myself is of some kind of vengeful, punishing beast, descending from on high to singlehandedly dish out rewards and punishments. Sounds drastic, but that is how uncomfortable I am with playing this role.
We have been separated for the past year-plus. He denied stealing a key and repeatedly coming into my house, which caused me great anxiety, so I have told him he is not welcome to spend time here.
He caused an accident, and fled the scene... and only turned himself in when I said I would turn him in otherwise. He lied to our sons and me that he had hit a tree. He continues to deny that he was drinking. Even though after his accident he came home, made the kids go to bed early, and passed out in one son's bed. So, I told him that he can't have parenting responsibilities until he shows through his actions that he has a plan to keep his kids safe. Emotionally as well as physically, because it finally sunk in for me how crazy-making his behavior/words must be for them... neglecting their needs, denying their realities, etc.
After a month of me having full-time parenting and him not really doing anything about it, I brought each of our boys up to his house to spend a weekend day with him. He kept pushing for them to stay overnight, and I kept repeating that they can't do that until he comes up with a plan. I am not trying to withhold the kids from him, but I am trying to keep them safe. I must have told him five times over that weekend that he cannot drive them until he comes up with a plan - that I would pick them up/drop them off. He chose to drive our 11 year old back to me anyways, I smelled alcohol on him when he dropped our son off, and he refused to use the breathalyzer after denying that he had been drinking.
At this point, I said, not only can he not have the kids overnight or drive them, but they can't even spend time at his place, because that puts them in the awkward spot of mom saying dad can't drive them, and dad saying he is going to drive them. They can't be the judge of what is safe or not. I repeated, that he just needed to come up with a plan to keep them safe.
Right now, I have some leverage, so I am trying to use it. With the help of my therapist, I gave him suggestions for what his plan could include, i.e. breathalyzer, regular alcohol/drug testing, the thing that doesn't let you start the car til you blow in it, etc. I said I am open to his suggestions, but these are some ideas. I repeated that I am not telling him he can't drink (because I know that does no good), but I am telling him we need a plan, that keeps the kids safe and holds him accountable if he doesn't stick to it.
He finally met with his sponsor, who he hadn't spoken with for months. He asked his sponsor for help with this plan and his sponsor refused. His sponsor said he doesn't get involved in the marriage stuff, he only works with my AH, and that "we can breathalyze til the cows come home but ultimately, it just comes down to him doing what he needs to do" (i.e., following the steps of recovery). I totally agree with his sponsor, but...he did not tell his sponsor about his hit and run, or admit to any drinking and driving. So his sponsor doesn't have all the information. And, my job is to keep my kids safe, and keep my serenity that I have put steps in place to make that happen. Sooo.... he has to figure out a plan without his sponsor's input.
I ended up letting the kids spend most of this weekend with him, and now I am thinking I should have stuck with "all or nothing" until he comes up with a plan. Last night, he wanted to take them to the movies, which required driving. Since we don't yet have a plan, I drove to his place, he breathalyzed, and then drove them to the movies. Today, he picked them up for church, and I let him drive them back to his house afterwards since they were coming directly from church at 9:30 am.
However - I don't want to keep going in this piecemeal basis, approving this and disapproving that. I feel like I already blew it, by letting them spend time at his place and drive with him, even though my common sense tells me that is was okay this morning after church. It feels like I should keep it really black and white, until he comes up with a plan. And if he doesn't, he doesn't get time with them. But, that feels like punishing behavior. Maybe because I am so angry at him. We spoke on the phone today, and I expressed my anger over some of his behavior, and he said "that is the past". As in two weeks ago. I felt scornful of that statement, since my experience is teaching me to focus on his actions, not his words.
I am EXTREMELY intolerant of drinking and driving. It is completely unacceptable to me. In high school, even though I had no personal experience with alcohol abuse, something led me to found a chapter of "Students Against Driving Drunk" and to plan an entire week of activities to educate my schoolmates on the dangers of drinking/driving... including bringing in a speaker who lost her legs when hit by a drunk driver, the cops bringing in a wrecked car, etc. I can't believe I am having to deal with this with the father of my children. (His own family was very lax about drinking and driving.)
I know I am powerless over alcohol, but I refuse to be powerless about the possibilities of my kids being in unsafe situations with him, if there is anything I can do to put structures in place that at least try to prevent that from happening.
I welcome any ESH on this.
-- Edited by oceanpine on Sunday 6th of November 2016 04:35:57 PM
When reading this my first gut reaction was about control. I feel the same way about drinking and driving, and especially keeping my kids safe. However, an alcoholic cannot come up with a plan nor stick to a plan. It is not your responsibility to give consequences or punishments. As you said you cannot control his drinking therefore you cannot control his consequences or his punishments. Those are for his HP and the law.
I would step out of it. Stop breathylizing him. Stop asking him to come up with a plan. Allowing this and not allowing that. I would take your concerns to the Court and let a judge decide what the plan is and then stick to it. You can get an emergency order based on what you said. Further, I would examine my own motives for letting the kids spend time with him after you said he couldn't. You can arbitrate with the Court for his parenting time with supervision or that he has to submit to a drug and alcohol test prior to picking his kids up at a neutral location.
You will drive yourself crazy being the police and the HP. Good luck.
Hard one Oceanpine. I'm not cool with alcohol and driving either with my kids. Nor am I fond of courts. I don't know if there is any middle way with an alcoholic though. I was really lucky to be granted a piece of legal paper banning any alcohol or narcotic use within a 12 hour period in my home. So the choice and cinsequence part is very clear.What's available in your locale? Sounds like a heap of unreliability and excess responsibility because of it for you. Really its a simple thing, one wants kids, one doesn't drink and drive. That is a reasonable expectation to me. Nothing to do with punishment.
Aloha Oceanpine...you are living the consequences of being the spouse of an alcoholic and you are also being punished by the disease which you have not cause, cannot control and will not cure. Consequences are results from things that happen and punishments are negative rewards You can learn much about both in the face to face meetings of the Al-Anon Family Groups and our literature. Keep coming back. I like what A4l and Fooled responded with also. (((Hugs)))
I think my post will delve a little more into the legal aspect of things than alanon thoughts... maybe
But what about supervised visitation. He can see kids with a court appointed supervisor, they drive, or you drop off kids. If he is unsafe, then you don't have to play police. You know kids are safe, and they can see their dad. but you controlling the whole situation is only going to make you nuts, him resentful, and the kids will feel the stress. The safety of your kids is paramount. But your mental health is important also.
My thoughts on punishment vs consequences.
Punishment is punitive, a human action that harms another for their misdeed. It stems from the emotion the misdeed illicited
A consequence is either natural or man made, but a person creates it for them self.
In my experience, consequences happen naturally. Also in my all too expensive experiences, alcoholics cannot figure out a plan, or carry one out if they figure one out. They will drink while in charge of their kids. If your A had to use a breathalyzer before getting in the car with the kids, who would make sure that he did it? That's the kind of responsibility that a kid shouldn't have and couldn't enforce. And then what if your A did the breathalyzer and it blew that he was drunk - how would the kids get to you then? In my experience, in the unlikely event that he would even do the breathalyzer, he'd then deny that it was correct and he'd drive the kids anyway.
The solution I reached was that my A moved one block away from me. He came over and got our kid on foot, and they walked to his place on foot. I didn't hand over our son if there was any sign of drinking. (My A is a binge drinker, so sometimes many months will pass without him drinking.) If my A got drunk with our son there, our son was old enough to walk back by himself without any troubles. Before he was old enough, he just visited our son at my place. (Fortunately my A is peaceable and cooperative even when he's been drinking.)
A's have no self-restraint, or they wouldn't be A's. So it's futile to set up any system that relies on their self-restraint.
I hope you have a good meeting to go to? These are tricky situations and no one should have to go through this without support. Take good care of yourself.
It seems to me the consequences at the moment are all yours. Your husband gets to take role of child while you are the Mother running around trying to think of ways for him to see his children that is acceptable to you. Your the one worrying about it, it seems he is getting to sit back do what drinkers do and drink knowing that you will work this out somehow and for him nothing really changes because you will drop the children off and pick them up and basically do all the work. What for?
I was just like this and to be honest it was all about my fears and me trying to force solutions to get things in my family looking more like I wanted them to look. I refused to see the reality and kept pushing and pushing, running around wearing myself out to try get this fantasy family that couldnt exist and its damaging and its denial.
I had to let go and only though working alanon fully. I got to let reality be reality for everyone in my family and honestly only then did everyone get to be exactly who they are and acceptance of us as a family could happen. The pretence, the charade came to an end and everyone could breathe especially me.
Your husband is unlikely to take responsibility for himself or his children while you are. The facts without any emotions attached are that your husband is an alcoholic, he cant be trusted to look after your children without driving and putting their life in danger, im sorry but no agreements, plans etc are going to change this basic fact. All you can do is take full responsibility for your children as the sober parent, so maybe he only gets supervised access, could other outside agencies help with this?
Working on your thinking will change this for everyone. Your children dont have the Father you want for them and its honestly okay. This sounds crazy but allow them the truth of their Father and for me my kids began to accept and even love the man he was despite the alcoholism. Your kids have you and you are all they need really. Let them know their Father is sick, give them plan bs for whenever they are with him, teach them never to get in a car with him while drunk. This is their reality, they have an alcoholic Father. I would dig deep, why cant you let this man go because you are probably helping this disease continue in your family by trying to fix it all. You cant fix it, ever and the sooner you set yourself free from this idea the sooner you and your family will get some peace. Best of luck, I really hope you get alanon, it was the best gift I could ever give my kids.
I'm with A4L on this one.....I will never support anybody under the influence driving on any road at any time. This is well beyond my qualifiers - it's the law. It took me a while in recovery to realize one aspect of my own self-esteem tanking was I was allowing (therefore, contributing) illegal behaviors around me by default of not taking necessary action when the situation warranted it.
I know that each country, state, county, etc. has different rules/laws regarding visitation, neglect, etc. I may be wrong, but driving impaired is illegal everywhere. I fully understand your concerns and in my case, I had to consult with the professionals in my state regarding my rights, his rights, etc. My AH is a very smart man. He never got caught drinking/driving, so there was no legal recourse. I do know that had I left, he would not have made a big stink about seeing the boys. After counseling, program, etc. I came to the conclusion that any relationship with him was better than no relationship. I also stayed in my marriage at one point as while we were together, I could better help them heal from the disease/affects.
Right, wrong or indifferent, in my state, I had no legal way to limit his visitation. I had no legal way to restrict his transport. I had no legal leg to stand on to control anything he did. A friend of mine spent $$$$ money to fight this in our state, and lost big time - joint custody, split 50/50. Her husband got a DUI 3 months after the settlement, and custody did not change because of first offense. It's a maddening process and her story made me aware of how facts vs. accusations play out in family court in my state.
There is nobody else that has an exact scenario. I do understand your concerns, and where the program helped me was identifying what was real vs. what was I projecting. My sponsor actually pointed out to me that car accidents happen all the time, each day, without impaired drivers. She's right. When that didn't stop my fears over this scenario, she then suggested that even though I wanted to, I could not save my children from all dangers in life. She was right then too. My point - I was a bit over the top by projecting all that could go wrong most of the time instead of trusting God and celebrating what was good.
Sending you thoughts and prayers...it's a hard spot to be in.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Hi op, I am so sorry you are going through this .. My personal take is and was of it has potential to harm my children or other people I would be negligent in not taking action. Once I did I had to let go of the outcome. My children were old enough to decide if they were in an unsafe situation. If they were they has the right to end visitation on the spot. I have ZERO regrets about this clause in the parenting agreement. The last spend the night visitation they had was awful their dad was drunk acting out crying and so on they were done. I also had a tro on him because hours behavior made me feel unsafe. He wound up on the mental ward about 6 weeks later. Now it made it extremely hard on me .. There were no breaks there was no guarantee he would show up to visitation they would do a max of 2 hours that was it. He couldn't deal. It is what it is so no worries there. How I allowed him to feel the consequences was to let the law handle things. He violated the tro at one point and just to be sure what my motives were I prayed a great deal about it. 24 hours and I spoke to my kids about the action I was going to take because this affected them too. My youngest who was 8 I think? Maybe 9 said to me mom .. It is better for dad to be in jail than worry he's going to hurt himself. Yes .. He left them with that little tid bit of he was going to hurt himself. So he has had some tough consequences and no I can honestly say after checking my motives praying discussing my course of action with my sponsor .. It was not done to punish. There are other things I did financially to punish him .. The jail time tro visitation with the kids and when to involve the police were not done in anger. It was my obligation knowing he was out of control. I documented .. And let my hp do the rest. I do not think turning a blind eye to someone who is drunk and driving is ok. It's a question only you can answer for you though. Hugs s ;)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
hi - thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to share your thoughts with me.
I want to clarify, by no means do I want to turn a blind eye to drunk driving!!! My starting premise is that it is absolutely not okay with me, but I am struggling with what to DO about that, besides respond to it at that moment. I would like to put some structures in place, which will happen if/once we move forward legally, in a parenting agreement, but I'd like to do so before then too.
He had his court hearing for his hit and run last week. I was hoping that the legal system would lead to consequences that would get his attention, but he got off lightly. Low fine, reduced to "reckless driving", not enough points to lose his license, etc. At that point I realized I am the only one right now who can do anything, and drinking/driving is absolutely not okay with me. While at the same time realizing I can't control his drinking. I struggle with where on the spectrum to land - it really helps me to have a clear mental/emotional "place" from which I am living and making choices, and nothing is clear here for me.
Unfortunately, all of his drinking is sneaky and the kids can't tell when he is drunk. None of us have ever seen him drink in the past 2.5 years, but he has been intoxicated often. I think he spent so much time drunk before we learned that he was secretly abusing alcohol, that we aren't sure what his normal vs drunk personality is... he is often a little "off" - he denies reality (i.e., he could be laying on the couch doing nothing, and tell our son that he is working hard, when our son can see the truth for himself). He says inappropriate things in front of our kids and others about our marital situation, etc. I still don't know if his off-ness is a sign of being drunk, or it is who he is. That mystery/unknowingness is actually the hardest part to live with, and makes it really hard to put any of it on the kids to determine when he is drunk. If I don't know, how can they?
The night of his hit and run, he came home to them, and told them to go to bed right away (1-1.5 hours earlier than usual). He lay down with younger son and immediately "fell asleep and started snoring." Neither one thought he seemed drunk, even with his odd behavior.
I do have Alanon meetings I regularly go too, but honestly, I find this forum much more helpful for some of the practical aspects of living with alcoholism, especially in regards to children. My local people are absolutely wonderful, and I get comfort, strength and insight into life in general from them, but there are very few who have dealt with issues surrounding young children. I live in a rural area, and our meetings are also very small. That said, I am very, very grateful to have them, and looking forward to going tonight, as tired as I am today. Thank you! Hope you all have a beautiful day!
When my child was young, my fellow Al-Anoners advised me just to assume that my A was always drunk - since there was no telling or predicting. So I just assumed that he would always be too drunk to drive safely, and made decisions accordingly. If you had asked him, of course, he would have said that he was never too drunk to drive safely. So I never let him drive our child anywhere. I simply said, "I can't tell, but the stakes are too high for me to take chances."
It was pretty clear to me that you are against anyone driving drunk especially driving your children and I'm with you on that, its scary. I don't think its you being a punisher oceanpine to expect a sober driver. The crappy bit is what to do when reasonable is not possible. I don't know what I'd do. But I wish you lots of courage and wisdom and strength. You've come quite a way.
I too read/understood your original post to mean you were against anyone driving impaired. I too wish you tons of wisdom and courage as you move forward. It's a difficult situation and I have not successfully been able to control my qualifiers. I spent a bunch of time trying.
Sending you positive thoughts and prayers - answers will come as you keep processing! That I can confirm - more will be revealed has been a true statement in my growth.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I wanted to clarify one issue that the courts really drove home to my xah about his dui. He had classes he had to take and was outraged because his dui was "reduced" to reckless driving .. Well he showed up to class told the lady where he needed to be and she said oh dui .. He corrected her to say no it's reckless driving. She looked him dead in the eye .. No honey .. I don't care what out was reduced to the original ticket will always read D.U.I. I almost snorted laughing trying not to laugh. So regardless of what the ticket is reduced to it will read DUI on the original ticket. So that still in your favor .. The only way out wouldn't be would be if the whole ticket was thrown out. You habe rights your children have rights it's something to pray about and discuss with your sponsor. Kids have no choice and no voice. Hugs ..
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Hugs oceanpine. I am in very similar situation - hadnt seen AH drink but he was drinking daily. Drove with kids in car, etc. somehow he's never gotten DUI, have no idea how he hasn't. I met with 3 lawyers before one took my concerns seriously - I documented what he'd done - dates, facts, no emotions, and which child was affected. I have full custody, he is to send breathalyzer before he gets kids, and every 3 hours during a visit. If he doesn't send one it states in our agreement that it means positive, a missed or positive reading and visitation is ended for good, he has no chances (he agreed even though he still denies it all) It's not perfect but its something in place. Find a lawyer that takes you seriously, safety is at risk. This disease sucks :( take care!
Kerrymom good for you. You took the actions based on your children's safety. No better motive really. When I was stuck in denial I tried to tip toe around any actions so as not to upset anyone or hurt feelings. I was insane when I think of how sneaky I became to try and get the right result in an unconfrontational way because I didn't have the courage to call a spade a spade. I couldn't do the right thing for the sake of it being the right thing.
My AH is his disease used to often say he was a better driver with a few drinks in him. He honestly believed this. He no longer drives. Stopped several years ago. Thankfully.
My A dad used to drive us kids drunk all the time. My resentment though fell on my mum for not keeping us safe instead of on my A dad who was actually doing it. I remember being very little and very frightened as the car swung around out of control.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Tuesday 8th of November 2016 03:57:15 AM
During the divorce of my exAh I didn't want my young (at the time) children spending over nights there because he was usually drunk and high. The judge told me that since during my marriage I knew he drank and got high and I left my children in his care when I had to work I had no right to say he is incapable now. That was a tough hit. I educated my children. They eventually learned on their own.
That judge is insane. "You did something that endangered your children in the past, therefore your children should remain endangered in the future"? Thankfully some judges do recognize the risks.
Insanity was actually the word my lawyer used. LOL I later learned he was very pro-father involvement. Whether they were capable of being a father or not. My children 24, 20, and 17 now rarely have anything to do with him. Occasional phone call, here and there. They do relay stories of overnight visits where they were taking care of themselves when they shouldn't have been.
