Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

PrettyPink · Member

Do they understand how much they hurt you?

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to MIP PrettyPink - so glad you found us and so glad that you joined right in. Alcoholism is a dreadful progressive disease that affects every element of a person - thinking, spirit, emotions, body....it is also considered a family disease as most who live with or love an alcoholic are affected in one way or another. Typically, the person is no longer in control - the alcohol or the disease is. Denial is a huge part of this disease and even the smartest alcoholic typically reaches a point where no human power can relieve them of the disease.

When one chooses recovery, they will go to AA or another recovery program. Friends and family affected by the disease and the diseased are encouraged to attend Al-Anon. In Al-Anon, you will learn more about the disease and how it affects us - those who live with or love another with an alcohol issue. We learn ways to respond instead of react as well as how to detach with love and put boundaries in place for self-protection and preservation.

I encourage you to read around here and check out any local Al-Anon meetings you may have. There is help and hope in recovery and you are not alone.

No amount of caring, love, coaching, counseling, crying, begging, pleading, bargaining, etc. would change my qualifier's choice to stay active in their disease. I needed to do some retooling of my own to restore me to sanity. Please keep coming back!

PrettyPink · Member

We aren't married, I moved out long ago. His children have kept a tie between us though, and recently things have come full circle and I found myself emotionally attached to him again. Do I love him, yes. But he doesn't think he has a problem and I cannot live like that. He is worse now. I'm seriously concerned for his immediate health, it's gotten so bad. He is only sober during the hours he is at work. Blackouts. Repeating conversations 30 minutes later not remembering he already talked to me. My brain tells me I need to walk away and move on. My heart is making that so impossible that I feel like I have severe depression and can no longer function.

jojo8466 · Senior Member

I'm so very sorry you are going through this. I believe that the majority of us on this site can relate to everything you are feeling. Be grateful you aren't tied to him through marriage or this whole situation would be so much worse. I understand your heart making it impossible for you to move on - the heart wants what the heart wants (not an Al-Anon approved saying) And I understand not feeling able like you can even function. The first time my ex abf ended it with me he met me in person and I literally could not hardly get out of his truck - my legs were so weak I thought I didn't have the strength to stand on them when it was time to leave.

Please know that there are people out there who care for you - you are loved - and things will get better slowly and in time. Depression is a terrible thing - I hope you can get some sort of help to get you through this difficult time. Do read others posts on here - try to get strength and wisdom from their situations and read that others have been where you are at and it eventually did get better.

You are in my prayers. Hang in there. You deserve better than this.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

HI Pretty Pink Welcome . Alcoholism is chronic disease over which we are powerless, so it is important to focus on ourselves and work at changing the attitudes that keep us in pain.

Please search out alanon face to face meetings and attend.You are not alone and there is hope.

Desperateinnyc · Veteran Member

I honestly do not believe they know..I don't think their disease allows them to even think about it, at least thats my experience. Let's face it, if they did allow themselves to truly see the pain they've caused, they couldn't handle it. But their sickness shields them from having to really see the wreckage they have caused..leaving you and me to handle it and remember. But as weak as u may feel right now, you are much stronger then you believe. I know this, because I, and you, I imagine, would know the pain we caused, and we would care and we would do something about it. Addicts can't, not when in the immersion of their addiction. Not fair, I know..but I'd rather feel empathy and hurt from that, then be them.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Love your response Desperate in NY. I agree

Desperateinnyc · Veteran Member

Thanks, I feel kinda bad being so blunt, but it was truly from my own life lol

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

You were honest and open and shared your ESH that is how it works.

Calm Lady · Senior Member

Thank you for your share, Desperate in NYC.

When I was trapped in alcoholism that is exactly how it was for me.

It is only now I am 6 years from my last drink that I am able to see the hurt, harm and chaos I caused. My brain shut it all off. Also I thought it was everyone else who was the problem, not me. Insanity. My diseased thinking twisted everything around.

lookingup · ~*Service Worker*~

Such great esh here,I wouldn't know how to add to it..I'm presently without any alcoholics/addicts in my life due to all the insanity it had brought into my life in living with it for 53 yrs,from birth on up,just been 3 mths right at it living without it.so far it's different I have to say my mind is so much clearer everyday,I do miss my qualifiers I loved them so much,just wasn't working anymore for me time I moved on to a better life that serves me lots better and opens up many new doors.im working steps and learning new tools in which to live by it is amazing how this program works we are each miracles in progress,I know that it works if we work it so I've decided to work it cause I'm worth it,your doing great pretty pink you have come here and shared that's a great tool you have already,reaching outward rand looking inward,we begin to heal.....hugs ((((pink))))) your not alone......lu

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Sending positive thoughts and prayers....this disease is so cunning, baffling and powerful - self-serving and selfishness are key characteristics. I agree with Calm Lady - when the disease was in control, I never bothered to give anyone else a second thought. If they stood between me and what I wanted to do, they were the issue, not me. If they suggested I hurt them, I'd be totally baffled as to what they were saying/seeing. I never ever gave a thought to what I was doing and how it affected/hurt others. The disease tells the drinker it's all OK and they are nagging, full of drama or trying to control our choices as adults.

The best choice I ever made in dealing with this disease in others was to go to Al-Anon meetings, embrace the suggestions, work the program and find me again. I did not know how lost I was until I began looking for me. I feel as if I have been found again and can make decisions that allow me to have joy and peace no matter what another is doing. I still get sad or worried, but using the tools of the program and support of others in recovery, I can get through the hard times.

There is hope and help in recovery - you are not alone...keep coming back!

PrettyPink · Member

Thank you all for responding. It really does help to hear opinions/stories from others with experience. This man is the first alcoholic I have every dealt with. Googling and reading only get me so far. Question: This may just be me wishful thinking.... but if I can do it, does it make me a bad person to walk away? Cut off contact? I've already alerted his daughter of the seriousness of his progression and said that I felt bad things could be coming. I just am not sure there is anything personally I can do to help him. If I can't help him, shouldn't I attempt to save myself? Every phone call throws me back in the pit.

Calm Lady · Senior Member

It doesn't make you a bad person if you walk away, it makes you a sensible one.

Enigmatic · ~*Service Worker*~

When I first arrived at AlAnon, I held the incredibly arrogant and misguided notion that I was the one acting responsibly, justifiably, and appropriately in my interactions with my qualifier. I was not the one with the problem, I was a victim; I could no longer accept the devastating behavior or endure another moment of pain delivered by my qualifier.

It was in AlAnon that I learned that I was just as sick as my qualifier, and my behavior toward my qualifier and others in my life that I saw as "helpful" was in fact, often incredibly unloving, hurtful, and counterproductive...and I didn't have a clue.

This incredibly humbling experience opened the door for compassion as I realized that I, too, was acting in ways that hurt others without intending to. Seeing my qualifier as the one with "the problem" kept me from seeing the nature of my own wrongs, my hand in the insanity, and fostered my resentment for 'working harder' for the success of our relationship.

I am so grateful that AlAnon helped me see the value of looking at my own behavior. My peace and serenity depends on addressing my own feelings, behavior, and responses, not in having to 'understand' or correct that of others (though recognizing threats to personal safety and acting accordingly is imperative).

This has helped me greatly to avoid seeing unwelcome behavior as a personal insult or affront to me, but rather as a sad, unfortunate symptom of the disease. That leaves me free to take the steps I need to safeguard my serenity without the unpleasant, draining weight of bitterness and resentment.

Just my thoughts, very thankful for the program

e_i_m · Senior Member

There's nothing anyone can do to make someone else recover or change their behavior. The person needs to accept that they need help, seek the help, and continue following a program of recovery. If there were a way that anyone could make another person stop drinking, there wouldn't be any active alcoholics/addicts in the world.

Calm Lady · Senior Member

e_i_m wrote:
There's nothing anyone can do to make someone else recover or change their behavior. The person needs to accept that they need help, seek the help, and continue following a program of recovery. If there were a way that anyone could make another person stop drinking, there wouldn't be any active alcoholics/addicts in the world.

Amen. This is the truth.

Freetime · ~*Service Worker*~

My peace and serenity depends on addressing my own feelings, behavior, and responses, not in having to 'understand' or correct that of others (though recognizing threats to personal safety and acting accordingly is imperative).

This has helped me greatly to avoid seeing unwelcome behavior as a personal insult or affront to me, but rather as a sad, unfortunate symptom of the disease. That leaves me free to take the steps I need to safeguard my serenity without the unpleasant, draining weight of bitterness and resentment.

Paul, I think your statements are brilliant. They really capture the essence of Al Anon as I understand it. Thank you for sharing with us.

-- Edited by Freetime on Sunday 9th of October 2016 12:17:15 PM

PatG1025 · Veteran Member

Having been on both sides of the fence (30 years in AA, 25 years in Alanon) I've come to believe that I can be selfish and self-centered as a using alcoholic, but also selfish and self-centered as an Alanon. I've done both. I couldn't become other-centered until I joined AA and did a lot of clearing away the wreckage of my past and present. But when my husband showed signs of active alcoholism (we knew I was the alcoholic, but I didn't think he was) then I did all the things other pre-recovery Alanons do: try to control the alcoholic, try to get him to see reason, try to reason with him, try to manipulate everything to get him to meetings, on and on and on. I even left Big Books and recovery literature all over the house.

My AA sponsor at the time (a husband and wife team) suggested I get rid of all the literature scattered around the house (hide it) and start working on my own recovery, get to meetings, work a program, etc. and when he sees how I am not focused in on him, and I'm focused on me and my happiness, he felt neglected and ignored, and eventually asked me what he ought to do. I suggested he go to a meeting. Which he did. We went to separate meetings, had separate sponsors, and I did not do his inventory or question him about his recovery.

It's a tough life living with an alcoholic, i'd rather be one.

But we got married long before we got sober and after sobriety we spent a lot of years creating a new marriage. One thing I do know for certain, there is no relationship with an alcoholic while he/she is still drinking. We are only connected to the disease. It takes two people working on a marriage (or relationship) to make it work. Sometimes people are too sick to do that (I was too sick to do that). It's best to release them with love and let them find their own way.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Â

Understanding as much about our disease as we can is very, very important and was for me because so many questions got answered and I am less disturbed (insane) about it.Â For me because of the presence of the Mind and Mood altering chemical many human traits and behaviors go by the way side and block their other wise use.Â The basic ones such as fear (most predominant alcoholic emotion and anger which abounds because of the lack of self control) remain and this explained much and more about the alcoholic/addicts actions and reactions so I could get the right picture of what was happening with her and the keep out of the participation with it.Â Our program has slogans and ESH which guide us thru the mis-understandings to teach us when and when not to participate.

Ever wander why the last word of the second step is "sanity" and why a power greater than myself is necessary to get there?Â Our disease is cunning powerful and baffling and we need all of this program to walk thru the mine field without blowing ourselves up.Â

What answer would you like to this question which could ever make you feel better about yourself and the condition you are in.Â This is one of the thought questions I learned to let go of because it was again showing more of a concern about my alcoholic/addict that I could feel honest about myself.Â When I let go of that process I could love her without justification and love myself without outside influence.Â Â Â Kinda sorta a technical response and I say that I went to "any lengths" to learn my program.

Great Post.Â ((((hugs)))) confuse

Fooled · Senior Member

Enigmatic wrote:
When I first arrived at AlAnon, I held the incredibly arrogant and misguided notion that I was the one acting responsibly, justifiably, and appropriately in my interactions with my qualifier. I was not the one with the problem, I was a victim; I could no longer accept the devastating behavior or endure another moment of pain delivered by my qualifier.

It was in AlAnon that I learned that I was just as sick as my qualifier, and my behavior toward my qualifier and others in my life that I saw as "helpful" was in fact, often incredibly unloving, hurtful, and counterproductive...and I didn't have a clue.

This incredibly humbling experience opened the door for compassion as I realized that I, too, was acting in ways that hurt others without intending to. Seeing my qualifier as the one with "the problem" kept me from seeing the nature of my own wrongs, my hand in the insanity, and fostered my resentment for 'working harder' for the success of our relationship.

I am so grateful that AlAnon helped me see the value of looking at my own behavior. My peace and serenity depends on addressing my own feelings, behavior, and responses, not in having to 'understand' or correct that of others (though recognizing threats to personal safety and acting accordingly is imperative).

This has helped me greatly to avoid seeing unwelcome behavior as a personal insult or affront to me, but rather as a sad, unfortunate symptom of the disease. That leaves me free to take the steps I need to safeguard my serenity without the unpleasant, draining weight of bitterness and resentment.

Just my thoughts, very thankful for the program

Â I hope you don't mind I am printing this out and posting his on my wall.Â Â I appreciate you for breaking it down for me in that way.Â I so needed this today

2HP · Senior Member

It has NOTHING to do with you, my friend, it is NOT PERSONAL. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it. You are powerless over their addiction.... and so are they. It's a terrible, terrible disease.

I personally love the story in Courage to Change, page 74. Let me know if you don't have the book, I will be happy to send it to you (((peace)))

-- Edited by 2HP on Sunday 9th of October 2016 07:48:15 PM

LinSC · Senior Member

Do they understand how much they hurt you? I think my qualifier did a lot of the time. He wasn't 24/7 in a stupor and he wasn't so dumb that he couldn't see some reality, although knowing the hurt he caused made him feel guilt...which in turn caused him to drink more to drown those feelings out, so it was a vicious cycle. Yes I think they know, but they are in denial caused by their disease.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Good questions and when I worked on the answers I got peace of mind and some goodies like forgiveness, empathy, compassion, gratitude. Alanon meetings will help you with where you are right now.

2HP · Senior Member

Trying to answer your question sends me right into powerlessness and unmanageability because your question is an OUTWARD focus.... him. Nothing makes me crazier than my outward focus where I have no control. The more productive question is, do YOU understand.............?

It's like the story of the pigeons in the tree, did the pigeons CHOOSE that path? who knows. But the man sits down under the tree and then the pigeons do what they do best. Which makes the man very, very angry.... until he realizes... until he realizes... until he realizes... that pigeons were merely doing what pigeons do.......it was NOT because he was there.

The man learned to check the trees for pigeons before sitting down... because he understood how HE felt about the pigeons.... because he cared about himself.... because he valued and loved himself.

When I realized that my alcoholic husband was going down.... and I was going down with him.... was that pleasing to God who had an extended hand of rescue to me?

Some people would rather die than change... we have that option too. I had gone that far down the scale into deep depression. But nothing is too hopeless with God. Al-anon showed me how to grab onto God's hand and that's when my hopelessness began to fade. The sun will shine for you too. You can believe and trust that.

(((peace)))

-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 10th of October 2016 09:56:58 AM

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

This is a GREAT thread, and summarizes Al Anon in so many excellent posts!

Kenny

Bethany66 · Senior Member

2HP, Thank you for the pigeon analogy. It made a perfect mental picture. I am going to get better at looking for pigeons before I sit down!

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Â

LOL Bethany...that IS what it is about...we have to become alert.Â ((((hugs))))Â Â Thanks for the laugh!!!

Â

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

At her bottom, my wife was to busy thinking about suicide to think about other peoples' feelings. I was at a business trip in Canada, wife called me, I asked her to walk next door to the neighbor's house since she was obviously drunk and the neighbors were sympathetic and would let her lie down for a nap. She insisted that there was nobody home, even though I had just gotten off the phone with them. I yelled, implored, and pleaded while I was out on a factory floor with colleagues around, then hit MY bottom, and gave up, and put her into God's hands.

After her DUI, jail, rehab, and about 50 AA meetings, she told me that she had already given up, she would rather just end it all then live through the hell she was going through right then. That was when I realized that not only had she been making MY life hell, she has been making her life WORSE than hell, and didn't know how to fix it with the alcohol soaked in for so long. My real start of compassion for alcoholics started that day.

Kenny

starcatcher2 · Senior Member

Thank you for posting this comment "The disease tells the drinker it's all OK and they are nagging, full of drama or trying to control our choices as adults." I am recently going through a break up (and it's so hard), he told me that there was too much "drama". When all I have done is stood by him and try to be supportive. Never gave ultimatums. Never threatened to leave, BUT when I had something to say I was nagging. He never really heard me. So I stopped asking questions.

After his binges he said ALL THE RIGHT THINGS. Until I finally realized I couldn't do it anymore. What hurts most is the betrayal. He's already talking to other women within a few hours of us ending it.

PrettyPink · Member

Well another day. Trying desperately not to get sucked back in. This is so hard! Part of me wants to allow myself to get sucked back in. I'll be hurting either way. The other part of me went to the Dr and got an anti-depressant. Can't wait for it to kick in. Maybe it will give me the strength to listen to my head instead of my heart. Life just really stinks right now. Saying that makes me feel a bit guilty. Reading all the other stories here I see that so many others seem to have a worse situation than me. That just breaks my heart. I know how bad I feel, I don't think I could ever recover from some of the situations I have read about. Hugs to all of you.

texas yankee · Senior Member

What has helped me maintain my tenuous grip on sanity is something others on this thread have alluded to - that most likely my 30 year old son does indeed have fleeting moments of clarity (maybe his disease is "resting"), when he is acutely aware of the damage he has done to himself and his family - but almost immediately his disease quickly recognizes this "weakness" and comes charging back with drink or drugs or even just sleep, so these really painful thoughts get suppressed and the disease once again regains control - I can only imagine the pain my son feels in these moments - my heart breaks for him - but of course, that's when I need to hustle myself off to a meeting or call an Al Anon friend.

What really scares me is wondering which path he'll take when the pain gets to be too much for him - drink some more, go to AA, or kill himself.

Thanks to Al Anon, I'm able to get on with my life, but it still breaks my heart all day every day - for me, I don't know that I'll ever be able to eliminate the pain that my son's situation causes me, but Al Anon has certainly helped me cope with it.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey PrettyPink - it's very hard especially in the beginning. For me, this is where meetings and the literature really, really helped. When my mind would float to my qualifier, I would literally find a meeting, read some literature or come here. I had to focus on just one day at a time - not yesterday and not tomorrow or beyond. Just one day at a time and do things that were just for me.

I was so obsessed beyond my wants/needs that I wasn't quite certain how to be good to me. Others in the program suggested small things - bubble bath, painting nails, read a book, take a walk, go to the gym, etc. I kept doing different things and found good activities to fill my time - which I enjoy!!

So - keep coming back and do what you can do to focus on you! It's not easy but it does get easier with time and with adding your program things into your life.

Calm Lady · Senior Member

texas yankee wrote:
What has helped me maintain my tenuous grip on sanity is something others on this thread have alluded to - that most likely my 30 year old son does indeed have fleeting moments of clarity (maybe his disease is "resting"), when he is acutely aware of the damage he has done to himself and his family - but almost immediately his disease quickly recognizes this "weakness" and comes charging back with drink or drugs or even just sleep, so these really painful thoughts get suppressed and the disease once again regains control

Many thanks for sharing this.

Resonates very strongly with me. Both relating to when I was active in the horrible disease of alcoholism and that I see it in my AH.

it also breaks my heart when he has his moments of clarity and can feel what the disease has created to him and those around him. As you say, the disease senses this and steps back in to protect the A from seeing reality.

I also have leant to remove myself.

In AH, it's like he operates from two different parts of his brain, depending on who is in the driving seat at the time. Him or the disease. Nowadays is mostly the disease such is the progression with it.

His face, mannerisms, body language, the way he talks, everything is different when the disease is in charge. It is very strange. Two different people. Jerykle and Hyde as is often mentioned in relation to this disease. I learnt recently that the man who wrote that was an active A.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

There is no magic pill that makes this all go away or better, I tried that too as many here would say. The only thing that made my life 100 times better was Alanon meetings, the literature, the sponsor, the steps. Hope you hear the message everyone has been giving you.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Enigmatic, I love what you said here and I can so relate, having the courage to take an honest look at me and my part in how my life was going was the key to my freedom from the pain and misery. I hear you.x

PrettyPink · Member

I wrapped up one last commitment with my A yesterday. Can't explain why, but I went into the day very calm after weeks of emotional upset. I think I almost managed to detach from being IN the situation, and just watched and listened. For the first time I think I actually was able to separate him from the disease if that makes any sense. What I saw was heartbreaking. But the funny thing is it wasn't breaking my heart for our relationship, it was breaking my heart to actually see his illness. Wow. I think I am numb maybe because right now I don't feel much of anything at all, except that I am baffled on how he has been surviving and making it through everyday life. But maybe not as numb as I thought because a can feel a tear escaping now as I write this.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

((Pretty Pink)) be gentle with yourself. Positive thoughts and prayers on the way.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Hugs))) for you....it's perfectly OK to grieve the loss - it's a part of living/life/recovery. I so agree with Betty - be gentle with you and treat yourself as if you are your own best friend. I'm also sending you prayers for peace and positive thoughts!!

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Pretty,

It's OK to feel feelings. It's what we humans do. I spent much of my life trying really hard to NOT feel feelings, and that has done nothing but backfire on me in later life.

The feeling of one's feelings is necessary. The question is, what do we do after we have felt those feelings? Our reaction to the feelings and the situations that brought them up is what we have control over, certainly we have no control over our qualifiers.

So feel away, and do be gentle on yourself, those feelings are likely wounds healing, and you would have patience with yourself if you had a broken leg, so same for a broken heart.

Kenny

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene