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Ok so I have been following Al-Anon's advice for a few months and a few things do work, such as if he comes home drinking, I tend to go into another room or not engage with him, which has definitely kept me in control of my emotions. But I still don't like the fact however that the next day he is completely fine and happy as if the night before never happened so it still bothers me that the next day I'm technically expected to detach with love which means in my opinion not saying anything or bring up the topic or arguing with him, because if I do say anything even lovingly he becomes defensive and thinks he did nothing at all wrong. so now I haven't been saying anything in the mornings as I figure some part of his brain has to know that he's messing up his recovery so why add to any insecurity he already feels. but in the meantime the stronger part of me especially because we are not married and have kids from prior marriages and we don't live together makes me think, what the hell am I doing this for? I mean it's pretty rare for someone to become completely sober and never drink again and even if they attempt to be sober it's going to be an uphill battle for a long ass time, so is Al-Anon teaching me that it's still OK for them to come home drunk and I am just supposed to do my own thing and ignore him and live like this for God knows how long ? even if you're married and have kids and love the guy how long can you possibly deal with that kind of behavior over and over and over again ? sometimes I feel like Al-Anon is saying don't worry about them worry about yourself. which sounds nice, but how are you not supposed to worry about someone who is causing you stress and pain because you don't know what they're doing, you don't know if they're in a bar you don't know who they might be hanging out with and that's kind of hard to overlook.
The way I understand it, we are detaching not for their comfort, but for ours. Because arguing and trying to persuade and confronting make no difference to whether or when the drinker decides he wants sobriety - if it made a difference, there'd be no drinkers in the world. So stopping that pattern is for our own sanity and calmness. I get that feeling of "not wanting to let him get away with it," and "letting him think there are no consequences." The truth is, if we stay with them, we're sending a signal that we'd rather put up with the drinking than leave. Which is the case. So words aren't going to be effective anyway.
As for how long you have to put up with it - you don't have to put up with it at all. Al-Anon can't give advice on whether to leave or not to leave, because no one knows your situation as well as you do. But leaving is the good and right solution for many people, and there is no obligation to stay. Some people do choose to stay with their A's, and the only concern, as I see it, is that those who choose to stay do so out of their own free will, and not from a sense that they have no options. (Of course some people do have concerns of income and so on, but I mean avoiding some idea that people feel they "have" to stay, or they're "not trying" if they choose to leave, or any psychological pressure that keeps them in a bad situation.)
That's how I understand it. Take good care of yourself.
The way it worked for me was, when I was able to stop concentrating on what HE thought and felt and what I thought HE should think and feel and instead, learned to be in a quiet place in my mind where only me and my HP were allowed to have an opinion....then, I was able to make good decisions about what I wanted to do.
As long as I was acting out of a desire to change someone else-s thoughts/feelings/actions, I was miserable. Because it's impossible, and a one way ticket to insanity.
That's the reason al-anon suggests not making any major decisions for the first 6 months or so- because it takes time to start comfortably thinking your own thoughts instead of trying to think other people's thoughts for them, lol. Then it's a lot easier to decide what you will and won't live with and if there's benefits to staying, going, etc.
What are you doing it for is a good question to ask- what do you get out of the relationship? Can you look honestly at that? For me, back when it was bad and I was stuck, I benefited by feeling as if I was superior to him, by having someone else's life to focus on instead of my own miserable train wreck, etc. And yeah, I loved him and didn't think I was lovable enough to have boundaries...the list goes on. What does it look like for you?
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I like the feedback you have received from Mattie and Miss Mel...It is what I listened to and followed up on myself. It took me a long time one day and a time to "get" this program and have it work for me. I stopped doing the program because of her and I dropped "she and her" from my justifications on why my life was the way it was. I took responsibility totally. Stay in the day and keep coming back because this works when you work it. (((hugs)))
I agree with all that has been posted and would like to add that I could not get this program until I had accepted that I was truly powerless over people, places and things-- That was a painful bottom for me but then the light came through and I understood. I could develop new healthy tools to live by and then make healthy choices for my life. What freedom!!!
Be gentle with yourself and learn to love yourself just as HP does
I don't see anything wrong with saying something to him in the morning. As long as you mean what you say, see what you mean, and don't say it mean. I keep it to facts and me statements when I do. Not something like "wow, what the heck are you doing, drinking all night again last night", but I say something like "you seemed impaired last night, I think you were drinking. I of course don't know, but it seemed like you were, and I thought you might want to know." Sometimes that leads into her saying "wow, really, I was drinking?" and a continuing conversation, sometimes it leads into "I wasn't drinking, couldn't have happened", and sometimes it launches into yelling. But it doesn't launch into a yelling *match* (usually) because I don't feel the need to justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain afterwards. Since it's my feeling, then it can't be taken away from me, and I just walk away if yelling ensues. I have given information to my wife, and what she does with it is her choice.
Aerin - this is an awesome thread - thank you for starting it. How it worked for me is three fold. First I Came (Step 1) - came to the program, came to meetings - worried, defeated, sad and broken. Then I Came To (Step 2) - fog started to lift, I was able to listen actively and hear about the program, hope, solutions, etc. Lastly, I Came To Believe (Step 3). In arriving and accepting I was powerless, some of my sanity was restored. When I realized no human power could help me forward, I did reach out to a Higher Power. As I began to turn my will and life over, more clarity happened.
It took me a while too. It's not an overnight process, and for me - 6 months wasn't near enough time. The more I embraced the program - meetings, sponsor, step work, reading, writing - the less I consumed myself with my qualifiers and what they were/were not doing. My sponsor even suggested that for those potential confrontation times (morning after), I take my dog for a walk or work-out or listen to music. It was an avoidance strategy as I was a controlling confrontationalist. I wanted others to 'hear my concerns', 'understand what I was saying and nod their heads'...
That never ever happened yet it was part of my habits/patterns. In time, I was able to know what I needed for me/my program/sanity, and established boundaries. I did stay in my marriage and have found my joy and peace through many things - sports, program, reading, exercising, etc. Staying or Leaving is a personal choice and I've seen both.....
Using a PAUSE was extremely helpful -- using the program to direct my courses of action for my improvement instead of the improvement of 'us' or 'them' was helpful to - takes practice, practice and more practice. Recovery is a life-long process, IMO. Some get it, others do not. Be kind to you and work on you and trust the program!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
It's not necessary to pretend everything is fine if it isn't. You can state that you were unhappy with the way someone's behaviour has affected you without analysing why they behaved that way. Detaching for me doesn't mean ignoring awful behaviour, it means stating how it has affected me and doing it calmly, and then following through with whatever boundary is appropriate. So for example, "I didn't get any work done last night because you kept arguing with me. I'd like to be left in peace to work today, thanks". or "I didn't get any sleep last night because the music was turned up very loud" or "you kept waking me up to argue, so, I'm feeling very angry and unhappy today and I'd like to be left in peace, thanks". Or, 'you said a lot of mean things last night and I don't particularly feel like a hug, thanks". I think it's respectful because it allows him to consider why he behaved in such a way (if he even remembers) and take his own inventory if he cares to. If I instead yell 'you were drunk last night" instead I open up the door for a fresh round of 'I was not" or 'so what, I'll do what I want" etc etc which is pointless and benefits no-one.
-- Edited by missmeliss on Thursday 2nd of June 2016 03:36:43 PM
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I can relate to the frustration I'm reading. For me the detachment part lead to acceptance. I have also learned I don't have to like what I accept and for many things this holds true. Its a part of disentangling. My husband is an alcoholic and the selfishness of it can piss me off. But, now that I know and accept completely what he is, the only place left to look is me. Its very hard because I've found that the dynamic of alcoholic relationships whether its family or intimate partner, encourages enmeshment. So not reacting is part of keeping me out of what isn't mine and moreso keeping them out of my self worth and self esteem which have always been fragile and very susceptible to the views, both spoken and unspoken, of the ones I love. My ah and I are fizzling out slowly. We live in seperate states, don't share finances, and really live seperate lives. And with this programme and a lot of emotional healing, I can see very clearly when the disease is doing the driving. It makes me uncomfortable. Still learning to do different, had to begin with thinking different. The thing about this programme I have to add is that it grows. Questioning and feeling like something isn't right is definitely a part of that growth.
Great point A41 Acceptance does no mean i like the situation. It simply means I have stopped fighting reality and wasting my time trying to change it . I become upset when it rains on my parade but since I cannot change the fact that it is raining so I change my plans.
It reminds me of the line from the song "My arms are to short to fight with God"
I remember feeling this exact way near the end of my marriage. I remember saying your exact words to my counselor. I was resentful. Why should *I* go sit in a church basement and work steps when HE is the one with the problem? To me 'detach with love' was nearly impossible. I had a lot of resentment that he was 'allowed' to 'get away with bad behavior' and I was just supposed to suck it up and ignore it. And go get 'help' for myself. Meanwhile he could just be happily drinking and doing nothing to help our relationship. I like a lot of the suggestions here around using 'I feel' statements to express your very real feelings, but then not picking up the rope to endlessly defend them.
In terms of dating someone of course, the dynamic is totally different. I had a hard time breaking up with my recent relationship and couldn't understand why. His drinking and lifestyle habits made me uncomfortable, because of my own past experiences. Why did I stay so long? I didn't even want to go out with him to begin with because I knew he was a smoker. For me It finally came down to - am I getting what I want from this relationship? Am I growing as a person, and are my partner and I mutually supporting each other in all ways in this relationship? The answer for me was no. It is no different than other potential 'deal breakers' that could happen... one partner can be an atheist, which may not go well if the other is a devout Christian. One might be a strict vegan, the other may not- this could cause many conflicts if either person can not 'accept' this lifestyle difference. I am a fitness professional - I have no interest in dating pot smokers.
At the end of my marriage, my husband and I had basically two separate lives and we were living as roommates and parenting partners only. He liked to hang out in the backyard all weekend drinking. I liked to go running, biking, out with friends for lunch and shopping... he didn't even go to Friday night football games where we could meet other parents and have new friends. I went alone. I was already living like a single woman really.
When I was dating my boyfriend, all we did 'fun' together was go out to eat, and drink. He would 'say' he wanted to do 'active' things with me, but it never happened. We did do 'married people' things like go to the hardware store together. But we weren't married. I signed up for a yoga class once near his house so that when I was with him on weekends, I could still 'do my thing'. But we would go out the night before and then be tired and lazy the next morning and yoga wouldn't happen. I continued to do 'his thing' with him, and slowly 'my stuff' was going by the wayside. He didn't 'get' my love of working out and even implied that I needed more 'balance' in my life. So in this case, our lifestyles just weren't lining up, and neither was our individual idea of what 'balance' means. Combined with my 'fears' of being with another addictive person - It meant it was time for me to move on.
I have been seeing a guy friend for a little over a month now and I know we are going to fizzle out. All we do is go to local places, have drinks and watch bands. I enjoy this, and have enjoyed our time together the past few weeks. However, my cardiologist just gave me the all clear to return to my normal fitness routine (slowly rebuilding of course) with no restrictions. So last night he wanted to meet up at 10:30 when he got out of work and I declined, because I have been sick this week and wanted to be rested to return to my favorite gym workout this morning. He was a little 'pouty' about it - but now that I can really focus on my healthy pursuits , I will not choose to spend weekends in bars or drinking with friends constantly. I gave up a lot of my interests for the last boyfriend, and I certainly am not going to do it again. Since we are not in a 'relationship' really - this is something that I am going to not give in to like I did before. My friend works out at the gym almost daily, but he also still drinks a lot of whiskey on the weekends. That's fine for him, but I don't have to sit with him just because that's the only 'time' we get together, when I could be doing something more active and fun.
So for me it's really less about 'alcoholism' and more about - do our interests and lifestyle choices line up enough to continue dating? Do we have the same values and principles?
If not...then it's up to me to make a choice to move on. My decision is about what *Cyndi* wants and needs from a relationship, not about *him*.
Hugs,
Cyndi
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"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
I had the same issues with understanding that alanon was giving me the gift of standing in my truth and being ok with me. What my xah did or didn't do was and is about him .. Not me. I wish I had been more in a place to state it in a mean whay I said said what I meant and not say it mean. At least it stopped being about me in regards to his choices and let it be about me in regards to my own choices. It took me a long time to figure out how to talk to him. Honestly still don't have it right at least I found my voice. Hugs a ;)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Yup. I have no slogans for you. No well versed ideas or ancient wisdom. I just hear you. Maybe that's the point? Finding our own truth through being heard? It's why the HP concept is powerful and free. malleable even . ;)
THis is a great post and I got a lot out of the responses to it. I struggle with the same thing. One thing I notice from my own experience however is that when I focus on him too much then my life does become unmanageable. I can literally drive myself crazy. I know my life is unmanageable when I can't sleep because I'm worried about him, I stop doing the things I like to do to take care of myself and I start to isolate myself just to focus on him. I can't change his mind about drinking or all the behaviors that go along with it. I do speak to my AH about the issues that arise as they arise and I always do it the next day when he's sober. I have found over time that I pick and choose what to bring forward. Meliss I really love your statements about telling him how you feel and why you don't want a hug etc. I like it because my AH will often get up the next morning and act like everything is ok. And there I am angry and resentful.
In the meantime I reach out for support when I need it to the friends I have made in the program. Last night I was talking about this very subject with a friend from my group. We talked about how I could apply the alanon principles to this particular situation and I figured out a plan of how to address it so I don't just let it slide but don't confront and argue and defend my statements. Then the majority of the conversation was about what brings me joy and what I can do more of to make my life better. I'm not sure how the program works for you but for me I notice that I can sit and stew about an issue for hours, days or weeks and not get on with my own life and I still won't solve the problem. But when I decide to let go and leave it up to God or the universe or whatever to sort out the problem I can actually get on with my own life. I go to yoga or do some gardening or I go out to a movie by myself or meet up with a friend. I treat myself the way I want to be treated and I keep myself busy with other things. And often that issue resolves. I find that when I'm not specifically focused on the problem my brain or my HP or both have a way of figuring things out on their own. Suddenly I will find the right words or come to the right decision.
As for the staying or going piece I find that Al anon makes me realize I have choices. They aren't easy choices but they are choices. I can leave if I want to. I can stay if I want to. I don't have to make the decision this moment if I don't want to. I went to see a counsellor about this exact issue "when will I know when I should leave?" And he told me "you will just know". He told me I could trust my feelings and my decisions. That was a new concept for me. He also recommended face to face meetings which have been so very helpful.
