The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
My A and I had couples counseling with our pastor last night. For the last couple of sessions I have felt confused afterwards but in these sessions is pretty much the only time my A is open and honest enough to have a meaningful conversation.
So last nights topic was fulfilling each others needs....The A admits that he has been drinking and the relapse days are getting closer and closer and the # of days of sobriety are fewer in between relapses. According to him its because of stress. He stated that what he needs from me is my support and that if he feels like reaching out to me he will. Fine, I have accepted this. His boundary is for me to not ask him how his meeting went, if he is going to a meeting, share any type of Recovery article I read, share any step work I have completed, and anything related to ala-non. Fine I can do that. He doesn't like my boundaries...if has been drinking and he is snoring on the couch I will not wake him up to go to bed. The snoring keeps me awake and makes me angry. Often he wakes up in the middle of the night and comes to bed and acts like a child yanking covers etc. My other boundary is drinking and driving. He then stated that his biggest barrier in achieving sobriety is that if he does I get my way. So then the Pastor asked him if sobriety is what he wanted and he said yes but I don't want her to get her way.---very confusing.
Moving on to my needs...I said most of all I need him to engage as a husband. There are decisions that need to be made regarding certain things in the house that he keeps procrastinating on. There are things that need to be done that just aren't getting done. The house is in my name only as I had it long before I met him and these things will affect my home owners policy if they are not done. I had to switch homeowners companies because of his rock bottom and my policies being cancelled because of him. I tried to explain that I need to respect my boundaries as if I am kept awake because of his snoring and I get angry Im just hurting myself, Im putting myself in that position, and I have the right to not have to listen to that because he made the choice to drink. As for the drinking and driving, he has lost his license multiple times and has continued to drink and drive. Should he get into an accident and die, I'm alone, what about if he kills someone else? I am alone because he would go to jail. If he continues to drink and drive and gets caught he will go to jail and I will be alone. I have accepted this, therefore its a big issue for me.
Well, to make a long story short, he doesn't know about the husband responsibilities because he is working his recovery and trying to meet his responsibilities at work, and its not fair that he has to sleep on the couch when he works 12 13 hour days and its his truck, his drivers license and his business. So when I replied then I will take the responsibility of hiring someone to do the job, its not my choice whether he sleeps on the couch, and ok well then I need to take the steps necessary to protect myself. (I have no idea what that is yet) and he replied see you always get your way.
I don't even know what I am feeling right now. I am trying not to be angry. I am trying to not dwell on the fact that its not his way or my way and we have to take turns like children. Im just trying to break it down in my head and prove to myself I guess that some progress has been made and I should be grateful for that. I guess I just feel sad. Sad that he feels that way. I guess I feel lonely because I don't have the partner that I married. I am disappointed that things didn't turn out the way I had envisioned.
Suzann, prayers coming your way. I can't imagine how awful it must be, trying to take care of yourself while being weighted down by someone who doesn't even realize the extent of his disease. Blame is such a hallmark of alcoholism - it's always the other person's fault.
Hang tight to the sure knowledge that nothing you have done or can do will have an effect on him, only on you. In my case, I also needed "him to engage as a husband". When it became crystal clear that this was not going to happen, I knew I couldn't go it alone. So I reached out and did something I hate doing - I asked my friends for help. And they poured out their love, support, and actual help. I'd never felt as if I was capable of having close friends, so their response still feels like a miracle.
The program has taught (and is still teaching) me so much. It is a daily struggle, but a hopeful one. You are getting stronger every day. Do take time to nurture yourself. You are healing, too.
(((Fooled))) talking things over and reasoning thing out with a still drinking partner is never very productive. The concept of compromise,working toward a common goal, is often over looked because competing and one up manship is a defensive tool used to keep the disease going. You are not alone. He drinks and relapses because he has a disease.
I can understand his objection about attempting to draw him into your recovery program. That could be a negative. Alanon has pointed out to me the fact that I need to meet my own needs and let go of expectations of others. Examining your motives in this instance would help.
I believe your boundary about snoring and sleeping out in the other room is valid. If he comes in and pulls blankets etc I would move myself out to sleep elsewhere. Positive thoughts on the way. Keep on keeping on
Thanks Rosemeyer I guess I am so taken aback by the selfishness, the self centeredness, how in his mind his relapses are because he doesn't want it to appear like I got my way? How is that a marriage?
Yes Betty I thought we were working on a common goal, but apparently we are not. Well not right now. Thank you for sharing that defensive tool, it makes me sad that he feels he has to compete with me. I suppose I shouldn't take it personally though, as he must feel that way with everyone when he is actively drinking. I didn't see myself as drawing him in to my recovery program though. I often shared with him certain articles or video clips that were both AA and Ala-non regarding his exposure to Alcoholism and both parents being Alcoholics. But it applied to me too. I did share with him some of my journal entries regarding my steps. When he came home from a meeting I did ask him how it went, kind of like a welcome home conversation starter. Maybe subconsciously I was trying to push and prod and he saw that.
(((Suzann))) - so sorry that these sessions are leaving you confused and sad. I can so relate to that aspect - we never were successful in any type of counseling. I believe I came to the table looking to collaborate and my qualifiers came to the table to prove me wrong/crazy. It was extremely dysfunctional - at least the two of you are sharing - we could not even get there. Of course, with the help of Al-Anon, I had to learn and accept that the resistance to change for them (and I at times) had more to do with the disease than the person. It is a selfish disease and even when the qualifier says they want to fix things, the disease suggests in their mind that they want to fix things IF they get their way.
I agree that every step you take helps you and your program. I know that each time we tried, I often left with the thought.....well - there's another hour of my life I'll never get back. Of course, I was in my own craziness caused by this disease, but I never left there feeling better. I can NOT say the same for my time spent in Al-Anon meetings - I always leave feeling better, uplifted and loved.
When one is in recovery and another is not, it's very hard to not get further apart. I've heard often in this program that you are either moving forward or going backward - there really is no standing still in life. That does make sense to me now in ways I couldn't really understand before.
Prayers and positive thoughts for you - so sorry for the pain and the sadness - you are not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
My ex husband used to fall asleep (pass out) in the lawn chair by the backyard fire pit, long after the neighbors had gone home. For a long time, I would get myself up at 3am and go out to drag him in so the neighbors would not see him in the morning. This usually took an hour or more out of my full night's sleep that I needed badly to take care of our three kids and a household the next day. My sponsor helped me realize that he is a grown man, not a child who has fallen asleep 'in the car' who needs to be carried inside to bed. I stopped dragging him in. He eventually had the consequence of a neighbor seeing him snoring in the lawn chair when he came out to pick up the newspaper on the driveway. Let's just say - my husband never passed out outside again.
He also fell asleep snoring on the couch many times. When he came to bed and continued to snore, I would get up and move to the couch.
I was once told that addicts stop maturing emotionally at the age they started using. In my ex AH's case, that would be age 14. He was and still is very much a self-centered, immature, boundary-testing 14 year old. I used to always say I felt like I had 4 kids instead of 3. Irresponsibility and being overwhelmed at 'adulting' is classic alcoholism. I learned to check my expectations at the door. Expectations are pre-meditated disappointments - like going to the hardware store for bread. I accepted that my AH was not going to be able to 'adult' or step up to the responsibility of marriage and family.
Keep coming back,
Cyndi
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"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
It is frustrating when you are the only one really looking for change. It's good that you have come here for some solace and support. The people here are so wonderful, and I'm learning so much. I completely understand the drinking and snoring thing. It's extremely frustrating. The "getting your way' comment seems so very selfish. You're not looking to get "your way". You're looking to save him, and your marriage.
One thing that I have learned, through being married to my AH for 9 years, is that we can't be held responsible for our A's actions. There were so many times that I hid his bad choices from loved ones and friends. While I am still quite protective about who I will share things with, because of his position in our community, he will have to answer to our kids, who are now adults.
Cyndi, I loved your share about the backyard fire pit. It's amazing what they will do when they think they can get away with it...and as long as we are protecting them. It was also interesting to read the comment about how addicts stop maturing emotionally at the age they start using. That really speaks volumes.
(((((Suzann))))) this was a tough period for me also and thank God for the program, meetings, elders, sponsorship, literature and the opportunity to kill my resistance and just go along with the program one day at a time. I needed only to rescue myself and allow my qualifier the same opportunity. We get it at different times and different ways so I practiced self focus. HP always...24/7. One of my first things first was understanding that I was dealing with two partners...the one I wanted to be with and the one I got and when I understood that solidly I came to understand that I needed to slow down to decide which one was with me at the time rather than just act as if I was getting it normally right. I had a wife and an alcoholic/addict or who was alcoholic/addict and had to know how to respond appropriately. When she wasn't sick we did reasonably well and when she was sick we did very poorly. Alcohol changes everything and I have to act in kind other wise my expectations become a journey into hell. I also had to know and still have to know where I am at mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually in a present basis. Those are my inventories that I take constantly or else I am blind to who and what I really am especially around others leaving them to figure out the reality of a situation. It isn't only drunks and addicts who can mess up the atmosphere around them.
Keep it simple...try breaking just alittle bit of it down and then move on to more. Use your sponsor or sponsor(s) and of course remember God will do for you what you cannot do for yourself. ((((hugs))))
I discovered I couldn't work on anything, let alone my marriage, when my wife was active. Her want for another drink trumped everything else. She is not a manipulative person at all, but when she became an alcoholic, if her behavior wasn't directly about getting more alcohol, it was passively/manipulatingly about getting more alcohol.
She would say things just like "you always get your way" to make sure that I would somehow feel that I owed her something (ie "letting" her drink). She would talk about my shortcomings and problems almost incessantly so that we wouldn't talk about her big problem.
Keep coming back here and sharing, and going to F2G if you can. Acceptance of the situation will bring you a long ways toward serentiy, and sounds like you are getting very close.
Thank you all for you ESH One of the questions I asked his rehab counselor was does all marriages with an A end up in divorce? He said no, but it takes a special kind of person and a lot of stars in alignment for it to work. I felt like I made a lot of progress in the time I have been here. I am anxiously awaiting when the kids are out of school for the summer so I can start my face to face meetings and get a sponsor. This has been a setback for me. Our pastor called me this evening just to see how I was doing as he could tell I was just crushed. All this time he has told everyone that I was not the problem for the drinking and he pretty much blamed "me getting my own way" I know that I am the cause, but still..and it is like you were told Cyndi, he is emotionally 12! I realize that his childhood was not the best, he was very physically and emotionally abused as a child. His mother used to drag him to the liquor store after the older ones went to school and when she got drunk beat the crap out of him. When the state forced her into rehab his older siblings and his father blamed him. Trust me I get it I do understand But I had to walk away when after I bought new towels and sheets for myself with my bonus money that I worked for,...now we are not talking Macey's and Cannon towel or 450 thread count....we are talking Walmart on sale and yes I did buy 350 thread count sheets because I have never had 350 thread count sheets and I worked my butt off for them....in retaliation had to go to the underarmour store and buy 4 sweatshirts at $60 a pop. My score was for the whole house and for him and I to share...No one else in my house wears a XXL. And to top it off, the man who can never get any task I ask of him completed because he never gets a lunch...today used his lunch hour to get an estimate on his new truck that he hit a deer with the other morning. The truck I refused to co sign for or insure and he argued as to how much he deserved. Tonight I look at him like a big big baby and I don't like him much.
It is so typical of them to put the blame and the responsibility on everyone but them. I recognize this from so many of my own experiences. What a perfect example that your A blames you because he is too drunk to get up and move from the couch to the bed! Sometimes you just have to laugh. Similarly the idea that he would stop drinking except you would be happy about it and therefore he doesn't want to! What a perfect convoluted justification for not stopping.
I am wondering if your pastor has very much experience with alcoholism. After my unsuccessful experiences with counseling and my drinking A, I found that most (maybe all?) counselors with actual experience in dealing with alcoholics require the alcoholic to be working a program of recovery before they will take them into counseling. Otherwise - as I found out from long experience - the counseling is useless. The A's are full of evasions and deceptions, plus their thinking is so messed up from the alcohol that they can't really work hard at the counseling anyway. Your A's complete lack of logic sounds pretty standard, sadly. I guess going to counseling satisfied me that "I tried," but other than that it didn't do a darn thing. Except show me that a lot of counselors are naive about alcoholism. Sorry to be discouraging. I guess one thing is that the situation is becoming clearer. And you are healing and getting healthy even if nobody else in the marriage is!
Whats better is he claims he is unjustly accused..."I swear I didn't touch a drop" Well, he doesn't snore like that any other time. He didn't snore like that when he came out of rehab and I knew he was dry. Then I start questioning myself, am I unjustly accusing him? Am I being too hard on him? Last night he didn't seem to have been drinking, but once he got home from is meeting he fell asleep on the couch and the snoring began. The rock the walls snoring. So I turned off the lights and the tv and went to bed. When he came in at 1 am, he said I wasn't drinking. I said well you were snoring like you were and I wanted to opportunity to fall asleep before the snoring kept me up. That annoyed him. One of the other boundaries I have is don't call me on the way home from work when you have drank. I don't want to know. I don't like hearing your heavy speech, and the fear of him being in an accident, so when he did call me yesterday he sounded ok and told me about his lunch hour chore, and I did say wow you get a lunch hour to handle your business but for the last 3 weeks you cant do anything that is on your list of responsibilities. Im sorry it hurts my feelings.
Unfortunately our church has a lot of addiction, our Pastor is not a SAC but he does counsel a lot of addicted families. My A goes to AA daily except for Thursdays when I go to a CODA meeting, and he sees a therapist biweekly as well. However, my A is just of the belief that the more he sits in the meetings it will eventually sink in by osmosis and I truly do not understand what it is like for him. Perhaps I don't. I cant begin to imagine what the thought process that goes on in his head is. All I do know is that life goes on whether he drinks or is sober and there are responsibilities that are going unmet and if he isn't going to meet them I must meet them because it affects me and to be honest that pisses me off. I know ultimately what is going to happen here, when I hire someone and the job gets done he is going to feel guilty and then I will be accused of being controlling.
I accept that I am not perfect and I have my own faults, these last couple of days I just feel like I have lost ground in my acceptance of the situation. I don't want to raise another child. I just feel like I am falling backwards and I cant stop myself from the sadness.
((Suzann)) this is a difficult and painful road. When I first made the decision to apply alanon principles to address the painful experiences in my life, I made a meeting a day, got a sponsor, worked the Steps, used the slogans as a Mantra, made alanon telephone calls when I was unsure and focused on myself while disengaging from the behavior of the other people in my life. The more I could detach from everyone's actions the more serene I became.
As I am still following this discussion (I love all the ESH and learn for myself as well!) - I recall my first sponsor, she was actually a double-winner. She lived on the opposite side of the country from me so we emailed frequently. One day she responded to an email of mine and said, 'Cyndi, I want to challenge you for your next email to me, I do not want to see any mention of your husband at all. I don't want to know what he did, what he's doing, what he said or what you think about what he did or said. I want to hear only about YOU, and YOUR program, and what YOU are doing every day.'
I remember finding that kind of harsh at first and I went moody and quiet for a couple of days. Then, I sat down to email her and stopped and restarted the same email at least 10 times before I could put together something that had NO reference to my alcoholic husband at all. Then, I suddenly understood the purpose of Al-Anon (it's about MY healing and recovery), and I understood the concept of detachment a little more.
Not more than a couple of months later and about 3-4 meetings a week, I realized that my recovery was finally taking precedence over my husband's problems. When we separated, my healing really skyrocketed because I had even more 'space' to focus on my own health.
Keep coming back <3
__________________
"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
I remember going to meetings and trying
So hard just to understand the thinking that
Was Going on. It took me a long time and
Really working and understanding steps
1,2 and 3 to get there plus all the literature
And love and wisdom of alanon.
Self will, true acceptance, letting go, self love,
Boundaries, detachment, taking my Power back,
Strong believe in my HP, stop trying To make my
marriage and my husband be what i wanted, stay
on my side of the street, believe In me as a whole
person, self forgiveness, Self acceptance, self care,
stop being the doormat.
It all takes time and effort, i am still working toward
My goal to get emotionally, mentally, physically and
spiritually fit. I lost a lot of me for far too long it beat
Me down. Now i am pulling myself Back up to where
i belong wih my loving HP help and the strength and
Love of the alanon program.
(((fooled))) - huge hugs....I am short on time as I am leaving town but I know that when I arrived, and began detaching and trying to focus on me, my sponsor told me as Cyndi as said. She kept saying so long as I kept focusing on my qualifier, looking at what they did/did not do, how they did/did not do it, etc. that I would not move forward. So - I do not discuss them here too much - only present issues. They are going to do what they are going to do until they change. We can change with/without them changing. I heard this over and over and over and like Miranda - it took time for it to stick, but it did.
I am not the same person I was before recovery and they have changed too. Not necessarily as a part of their recovery journey but as part of their life journey. I had to let go of assuming how they are/were is how they would always be. I never use absolutes when discussing any other person in my life as if I can change, they can too. I believe HP has the power to move us all on our journey and when I get hung up on the actions/words of others, it only hurts me.
Take what you like and leave the rest - you are doing good work because you are feeling and processing. All of this is part of the journey - just keep your processing on your side of the street and leave his alone.
(((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
This entire thread is a monster for recovery...this is how the elders treated me and other newcomers when we first arrived "take the focus and effort off of your alcoholic/addict and put it on yourself alone. Do not mention the pronouns she or her or them and use "I". No at first I didn't get it and when I did my whole planet turned upside down. This subject was also our meeting topic last night and our new comers went quiet and I could tell they were listening deeply. One of them replied "I must change my thinking and understanding if I want to get well" which is quite near my own from back in the seventies. I am so grateful for the patience and understanding of our program and it's fellowship. Today I have a life which is saner and happier. This isn't about perfection. It is about progress. Mahalo all (((((hugs))))
I love that Jerry! This thread has been a reminder to me as well, because I have been doing WAY too much talking about.... wait... what I mean to say is...
I keep touching my toe over to the wrong side of the street lately and really need to stay in my own yard and spruce it up.
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"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
Jerry brought up an interesting point that struck me. It was always pointed out to me that in letter writing, answering a customer, and all sorts of things, that I should refrain from the word "I". It's been something that has stuck with me for so many years. I've never wanted to appear self-important. Looking back on my history, I'm now reminded of my Grandma, who was incredibly selfless. I adored her. She always put everyone else ahead of herself. My Grandfather was an A, and I can remember, if my brothers and I were staying over night, we had to be very quiet, in the morning, if he had been drinking the night before. It's funny how you forget some things. I'm guessing I saw so many things in her that I wanted to emulate, because I loved her so much. I'm guessing I need to detach from some of the selflessness and really think about me.
I remember those days of trying to figure out if my A had been drinking. Because if he had, my plan would be treating him one way, and if not, another way. Like maybe your plan is if he's drinking, you leave him on the couch, but if not, you wake him up and get him to bed. But really a grown man shouldn't need a "mom" to get him to bed - we adults get ourselves to bed. So maybe you don't have to figure out whether he's been drinking - maybe he's just always responsible for getting himself to bed, if he wants to spend the night in the bed. Then you're relieved of the burden of figuring out if he's been drinking.
When my A would be slurring or whatever, at first I would say, "You've been drinking so I'm not going to have this conversation now." Then of course he would say, "I have not! You're so paranoid! I can't believe you're always accusing me!" And on and on. And who knows, maybe a few times he hadn't been drinking. He always drank in secret so I could never tell. But what I did was I learned to say, "I have no way of knowing whether you've been drinking or not. It doesn't matter. You're behaving in some of the ways you do when you've been drinking, and I just can't continue a conversation with you when I see those behaviors, it's too hard on me, that's just the way it is. So I'll continue this conversation some other time." For a while he would roll his eyes like "I can't believe I'm with this person who's so stupid to think I might be drinking sometimes." Because denial is their Thing. But after a while he'd just shrug and we'd have the conversation some other time. Then I didn't have to try to monitor him for his "real" state. I didn't want to have a conversation with him (or drive with him, or go to an event with him) if he was behaving like he was drinking, whether or not he actually was. So that way of handling it finally worked for me.
I almost believed him it was me, I am the problem in our marriage, I am so controlling, I always have it my way etc. etc. So I went to several counselors -- alone, with him -- but nothing changed I still am behaving in a manner that I myself am worried about my own behavior -- I am nuts! Until I came across one counselor who said that if alcohol is present in the marriage it would be best to address that first. So I came across Al-anon (2011 - took that long for me to understand because it was only this year that I came to seriously practice), and only did I realize where his behavior and my behavior is coming from. Still a lot to learn and it really helps to keep coming back.
Wow I created quite a topic lol I am so grateful for all of your love and understanding. I am so grateful I was led to the board and this program. Im doing somewhat better today, still processing some things, and in some ways I think I am working step 4 and not even realizing I was.
Mattie, that is beginning to be a big issue for me. Trying to decide are these behaviors drinking or not drinking and I got the same responses. I realize that alcoholism is a disease and not a moral issue, accepting the denial and the lying as part of the disease and not a moral issue I am working on. However, I hate myself standing there trying to detect the denials and the signs of use. I have become to believe I am superior and I need to change that. I am guilty of denial and lies at times...mainly to myself but still. I am going to start working on maintaining an even keel that the evenings I am the same whether there are signs of drinking or not. You are right about the mom thing and I did bring up that point yesterday in the conversation about the retaliation over the towels and sheets. I am not his mother. It is not my job to wake him to tell him to go to bed drinking or not, to tell him to take a shower because he reeks of beer, to remind him to take his pills or manage his medication...etc. I think my offense to the situation came in about the getting in my way and like you jocelgp I am often accused of being controlling. I probably am in a defensive kind of way. I recognize that in myself when it comes to my polysubstance abuser son. The mind game of strategy for this behavior v. that behavior is in fact a way to control. I have to accept that about myself and stop blaming my qualifiers for how I got here and figure it out on my own. I have to work on my side of the street as you said Cyndi
IAM thank you so much for that. As I sat there during the conversation I didn't acknowledge my disappointment that this was not what I was expecting or what I wanted. As Jerry pointed out I have two husbands right now. The one I like and the one I don't like. I really miss the one I like. I am lonely without him. But I am changing and maybe we both need to change in order to have what will work better. Even though I liked the old one better, that one wasn't healthy for me because look where I am. Neither one of us had a functional upbringing with alcoholic parents. We don't know how to interact on a normal day to day basis because neither one of us had that. It was chaos.
Thanks for all the ESH and sticking with me everyone....progress not perfection. Im trying to get back on track and maybe I had my own relapse.
