Welcome I do understand your concerns and would like to suggest that although it is difficult to pin point your husband 's alcoholism that attending alanon on a regular basis would be extremely helpful for you.The internet describes your husband's style of drinking as follows:

"A periodic alcoholic for the most part, doesnt think they are alcoholic. It is not unusual for a periodic to go months without incident and then just take one drink. Any particular one drink lets the alcoholism loose again for however long it lasts. A occasional alcoholic is still the full alcoholic until they do the job to accomplish steady sobriety and stay in sobriety.

The periodic alcoholic can be incredibly dangerous to themselves and others because when they drink they drink in great amounts that severely affect their ability to function. As oppose to some functioning alcoholic who frequently gets averagely drunk then sobers up to function, a periodic alcoholic may drink themselves into stupors, unconsciousness, and occasionally even into death. "

The bottom line is that it does not matter how often or how much he drinks, it is his inability to stop once he starts that counts.

In alanon I found that alcoholism is a chronic, progressive fatal disease over which I am powerless. I did not cause it, cannot control it and cannot cure it. Since the person who is using the substance, is the only one to decide to recover, it is up to me to take care of myself and develop new constructive tools to live by. Attending meetings, making boundaries regarding the children and keeping an open mind helped me to find solutions that worked for me . Please keep coming back. There is hope.

 

 

Welcome to the board Jaclyn and I hope you stick around.  Al-Anon made it simple for me when I first arrived as an analytical and a trunk full of questions about my wife's drinking and using.  Simply said "If her drinking and using bothers you...she is alcoholic".  That was the "done" for me and I stopped asking questions and just accepted that our life was overtaken by the disease and then I found out I was born and raised in it and my family of origin was still practicing.  I stopped drinking all together and stayed in recovery.

I have heard the phrase "High Functioning" alcoholic often and have the experience of being a therapist in a very large recovery program in central California...my experience is that there is no such thing as a High Functioning alcoholic after all I had to do was sit with the sick family.

There are short ones and tall ones, thin ones and fat ones, dark ones and white ones and those  who are multi-lingual and still alcoholism is a disease period. 

Keep coming back and stay with your recovery program cause that works when you work it.  (((((hugs)))))

Welcome and I'm glad you have found us.

My ex-husband was (is) exactly the kind of alcoholic you describe.  Long months or even a year or two without any drinking.  But when it starts, bam!  All kinds of problems.

My experience with this is that it held steady, as far as I could tell, for maybe thirty years. I thought he was an exception to the rule of "It always gets worse, never better." (Unless arrested by a formal program of recovery.)   It didn't seem to be getting worse.  But after thirty years, it started slipping downhill.  So i think he was just getting worse more slowly than some. 

It is definitely alcoholism.  Like your H, mine denied it could be alcoholism, because it wasn't like the stereotypes in the media. 

Part of the whole syndrome of alcoholism is denial.  They can be standing there with a drink in their hand and they'll deny it.  "I'm just holding this beer for some guy.  Who?  I didn't catch his name.  Where did he go?  What do you mean by that?  How am I supposed to know?  You're so paranoid!"  Just craziness.

So in my experience, they will always find a way to say they're not alcoholics because they're not like "those guys."  It means nothing.  It's just typical alcoholic denial.

I have rarely heard of interventions working.  They often get the alcoholic to start treatment, but they rarely mean that he continues with treatment.

You may know the Al-Anon "Three C's": You didn't Cause it, you can't Cure it, you can't Control it.  The "it" being the drinking.  That means, sadly, that no amount of coaxing, explaining, threatening, or intervening can make him want to stop drinking if he isn't ready.

We can change the situation, though, by going into our own recovery.  We need recovery too because alcoholism sucks everyone around it into the insanity.  Our thoughts become distorted and our lives difficult.  When we work on our own recovery, things start to change.  And because the whole dynamic changes, the alcoholic is no longer the one "setting the tone."  His insanity begins to stop with him.

I hope you'll find a good meeting, and keep coming back here on these boards - we're always here.  Hugs.

Thanks for sharing sunshine. It's interesting to hear about different types of alcoholics, especially when they don't fit the stereotype. My AH drinks everyday but after work and usually between 4-6 beers. So he rarely binges, and rarely is hung over but it's very constant. He used to drink much more and has a DUI to prove it (before we met) so I think in someways he's managed to at least curb the more dangerous behaviors. Still, it's not healthy and we don't move forward as a couple because nights are for TV and drinking(for him). It also tires him out more than he realizes and when he hasn't had a drink for too long he can get snippy. We don't have kids thankfully, I def get the impression I'd be like a single parent if we did. So, like any others here, I'm trying to move forward with my own life experience but it's a challenge. I wish you the best :)

I tried forever to figure out if my AH was actually an A or not. The statement about if it is a problem for you was reassuring. My AH is probably what you would call a functional alcoholic. He drinks almost every day. He does it after work and can stop before he gets too drunk to function the next day. On the weekends this all changes. When he is with friends who are drinking he cannot control himself and drinks to a point of being out of control and the behaviour changes at that point are quite surprising. When I was trying to convince my AH by counting drinks and reporting back to him, by brining to his attention how he changes when he is drunk etc etc. it all fell on deaf ears. He once told me "I am so afraid that you are going to tell me that you won't stay if I don't quit drinking completely". That to me made me realize how powerless I was over his drinking. That he would fear making the choice made me realize how powerless he feels over it all.

Thank you, everyone for your thoughtful replies. It really does help to hear from those who have btdt. One thing I want to clarify is that don't try to control his drinking, although I do nothing to encourage or support it, either. For example, unlike the rest of the family, I will not buy him alcohol as a gift. I won't ask him to drink with me. I won't order him a drink when we are out. I almost never make comments about it or confront him about it anymore, unless the children are in danger. We used to talk/fight about it many years ago, but I decided that unless I was willing to leave, then there really isn't anything to discuss. That's the only boundary I have left. I don't know what other boundaries I can set, really, but I am open to suggestions. As far as driving the kids, we do have an au pair and between her and I, we do almost all the driving. My husband does some driving on occasion, but almost none of it is routine. When we go out as a family and he has too much to drink while we are out, he does let me drive us home, but has almost never asked. And because his drinking is so unpredictable and he has gone months without drinking (as far as I can tell, anyway), I don't feel like a total ban on driving the children is practical or enforceable. He simply would not agree and he would do it anyway. He just denies he has a problem (or at least he did the last we discussed it).

So I wouldn't say I 'police' his drinking so much as pay attention to it. I need to know if he is getting drunk so I can plan for it to keep the kids safe. For example, I may need to change driving arrangements or ask someone else for help. If I see that he is drinking heavily at night, I will be sure to not take any medications that might cause me to sleep heavier than usual as I know I will need to be alert if an issue arises with the kids. I will try to get downstairs in the morning before the kids are up b/c he sometimes falls asleep on the sofa leaving a glass of alcohol on the coffee table along with cigarettes and a lighter. Another example, if I notice he has already had a couple of drinks before I am supposed to leave for a meeting at night, I might stay out for only short time and then return and make some excuse about why I'm home early. Or if I might make up a reason to call home a couple times so I can confirm his sobriety. If he sounds impaired, again, I will come home. I will not knowingly leave him responsible for the children while he is impaired. It's just too dangerous, esp. for our child with special needs. Several attorneys have told me to document his drinking as much as possible, in case it might help with custody or visitation or supervision later.

I have also been told repeatedly that if we should divorce, it WILL be my responsibility to 'police' his drinking in the sense that nobody else will. If he is drinking and driving with the children or drinking and neglecting our youngest, unless he does something to draw the attention of the police, nobody will know, unless I do the work to find out. Only then, with evidence, will I be able request a change in custody or additional supervision or an ignition interlock, etc. It's not a job I want, but I don't see that I would have a lot of choice if my children's safety is at stake. Better to be proactive rather than reactive. To be honest, I don't care if he drinks himself into a stupor and sleeps in a shit-filled gutter at this point. I actually hope and pray he does something stupid and hurts himself before he hurts someone else. Then, not only might it help him to realize the extent of his problem, it may convince our other family members that his drinking is problem so they stop the atta boys, back slapping and toasting. No wonder he doesn't think he has a problem. Almost nobody else does, either, it seems. I'm so frustrated with the police I could scream. How can they not catch a drunk driver when given the tip with location, direction he is heading, car and driver description, and tag number? I have lost count of the number of occasions I have called to report him. ARRRGGGHHHH!

I just want my children to be safe when they are with their father. Is that too much to expect?

Thank you.  That is excellent advice, but how do you enforce it with someone who doesn't agree to it?  

I have thought a lot about ways to share custody that reduce the danger to the kids and living within walking distance was something I had thought about. How old was your child when you separated?  Did your child have overnights with him?  He has said (and I have been told by attorneys) to expect that he will fight tooth and nail for 50% custody and that he will most likely get it.  There is just not enough evidence that he endangers or neglects the children or that he even drinks too much.  It is my word vs. his.  But regardless of how much or little time they are with him, if like you said, I were to assume he will be drunk, then I would never let my children be alone with him.  He could put them in the car at any time and b/c of his disability, the youngest needs 24/7 supervision and assistance.  He likely always will. 

Our son was 3 when we separated.  He did not have an overnight with my ex until he was maybe 12, and even so, I gave through instructions about coming back if need be, and as I say, he lives one block away.  There are no overnights in the custody agreement, and it is written in the custody agreement that I can prevent my child from going to his dad's at any time if I suspect he has been drinking.

In preparation for this, my lawyer said that I should document everything, which I did.  I would catch him behind the house taking a swig, and I'd write it down with time and date.  I took photos of piles of empty bottles, etc.  I would have taken videos of him behaving drunkenly if I'd had the right kind of phone.

In my situation, my ex knew that I had the goods on him, and he did not fight the custody agreement.  In fact, I believe he was relieved that I stipulated that I would shoulder the vast bulk of the child-raising.  He just wants to see his kid for a few hours once a week.  He is perfectly happy to be free from the responsibility of driving him anywhere, getting up and feeding him breakfast, shopping for food, clothes, school supplies, and all that, getting him to sports and friends' houses and everything.  I think a lot of alcoholics are like that. The alcohol comes first and the rest comes way down the list, as we know.  Sometimes they don't like their "honor" to be damaged by being called an alcoholic, but they're fine with behaving like alcoholics, and that includes having someone else take care of their kids for them.

Another thing is that I had written into the custody agreement that I could deny him access temporarily if there was reasonable evidence of drunkenness - and he could do the same.  Now, there's zero chance that I'm going to be drunk.  But this clause reassured him that it wasn't just "me out to get him," it was to protect our child.  If I'd thought he could be sneaky and vindictive, I would have put extra requirements in there, like a breathalyzer or something.  But my own A is too drunk and disorganized to be sneaky or vindictive.  Small favors! 

Many marriages break up because of alcoholism, and so many lawyers have dealt with these issues.  I think in your shoes I'd get a good lawyer who is definitely familiar with alcoholism, and ask him what the options are and how you might protect your kids.  Then you'll know the best ways to move forward.

Iamhere,

I'm not sure I'm following you . Are you suggesting that I am projecting the worst case scenario unless I can prove it to the court/system? And that if the court/system doesn't consider him a danger to the kids, because I don't have enough "proof", then I should trust the judgement of the court? I absolutely want my kids to have a strong healthy relationship with their dad. But not at the expense of their safety, even 'sometimes'. "Legal proof" does not define the reality of a situation, in my experience.

Also, you said,
"My children were not dumb and quickly figured out when they should rely on their father and when they should not. I always made sure they had contact numbers to reach out to if they were ever uncomfortable with any situation."

Maybe my older children will learn they can't rely on their dad to not endanger them. But maybe you missed the part of my post where I said my youngest child has a significant disability. He is 8 and doesn't have articulate speech, uses sign language (which his father as only barely learned), has the language skills of a 2 year old, cannot dial a phone, tie his shoes, use the toilet or dress himself. He does not, nor will he ever, have the judgement to know when to rely on his father or not.

If I misunderstood your message, I would like to understand. Please clarify.

I do appreciate that you took the time to respond and for sharing your experience.

Sunshine

goodmorningsunshine66 wrote:

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Iamhere,

I'm not sure I'm following you . Are you suggesting that I am projecting the worst case scenario unless I can prove it to the court/system? And that if the court/system doesn't consider him a danger to the kids, because I don't have enough "proof", then I should trust the judgement of the court? I absolutely want my kids to have a strong healthy relationship with their dad. But not at the expense of their safety, even 'sometimes'. "Legal proof" does not define the reality of a situation, in my experience.

What I said - when we sit and project the worst case scenario, it's not good for us, our sanity and/or our program.  I then stated,

"If there is not evidence today that your child is in danger, the law can not support you."  It is when there is a proven threat of harm that you will get support. It's been that way since the beginning of time and will remain that way. I can share that my AH was extremely inattentive and even left the home to go 'down the road' when the boys were quite young, unsupervised and unattended. It was an extremely poor decision and I found out because they boys got into a physical fight and called me when they couldn't find dad....

I should have included, in my state.  So - to make it clearer maybe, in my state, unless there is irrefutable proof of danger to the child, there will be no limitations placed on either parent and the courts desire joint custody and shared custodial arrangements.  They will rule 50/50 unless the two parties agree to different in advance.  

  In my state, proven undisputed facts are all that is allowed in custody disputes/agreements.  I never said you should trust the judgement of the court, but in my state, you are at the mercy of the court.  Everyone wants their children to have a strong healthy relationship with both parents; in my state, they want the child to have a relationship with both parents.  They view healthy and strong as subjective, not measurable.  So, in my state, unless there is proof that a parent is a danger, they will have equal rights/shared custody.

Also, you said, "My children were not dumb and quickly figured out when they should rely on their father and when they should not. I always made sure they had contact numbers to reach out to if they were ever uncomfortable with any situation."

Maybe my older children will learn they can't rely on their dad to not endanger them. But maybe you missed the part of my post where I said my youngest child has a significant disability. He is 8 and doesn't have articulate speech, uses sign language (which his father as only barely learned), has the language skills of a 2 year old, cannot dial a phone, tie his shoes, use the toilet or dress himself. He does not, nor will he ever, have the judgement to know when to rely on his father or not.

I did not miss that you have a special needs child.  I did perhaps falsely assume that when your husband had one child, he had them all.  Most of my friends who have ex-spouses with custody agreements split their children equally between the homes to keep the children together.  While your youngest may not be able to communicate directly with you any issues, concerns, discomforts, I was hopeful that your other children would.  I can not speak to your children, their intelligence and/or their judgment.  I only can speak to mine.

 

          ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 My ultimate point (not clearly stated, apologies for that...) is that you are looking to what might be or what could happen, and that doesn't help you heal today.  Al-Anon suggests we work on ourselves for a while before we make any life-changing decisions - exception ... if there is abuse or fear of abuse.  As we get stronger and move away from the insanity of the disease and the diseased, we gain clarification and better judgement.

I also think it's very important that you continue to seek answers for custody concerns from legal resources in your area.  In my state, both parents have equal rights and joint custody unless one agrees to less than.  Also, in my state, there has to be proof (a written documentation by one party would not be proof in my state) of parental neglect/abuse/abandonment before any judge would consider action against another parent. 

From your first post, it appears you've consulted counsel in your state already, and it appears similar to mine.  While there are many here who have gone through separation and/or divorce with children, the circumstances are never the same.  I wish you the best as you move forward through this process.  My apologies for the confusion in my post...

-- Edited by Iamhere on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 07:08:07 PM