The material presented
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So my mother told me yesterday we shouldn't obsess over money. if you and your family have good health that's all that matters right? Well yes health is a biggy but so is paying your rent and feeding and clothing your children.
A little background for those of you who don't know: I work full time. I was lucky enough to get a government job 25 years ago. Does it pay enough to cover a family of 4 in New Jersey? In short, no. The property taxes are some of the highest in the nation so that of course is reflected in high rent. The car insurance because we are in the middle of two metropolitan areas is as well. With my son driving in a few months my rates are going up. My daughter needs braces. The monthly payment for that is like having another car.
My AH is working a recovery program. He hasn't drank in 7 months. He is doing well but he sees all this. He saw me work 7 days a week to try to pay the bills for years. I just couldn't do that anymore. It took a huge toll on me mentally and physically, not to mention I barely ever saw my kids or got to enjoy life because I was always working. And I refuse to do that again.
So here's where the problem is. AH only knows how to do a certain line of work. Or should I say he only WANTS to do a certain kind of work. Washing dishes or pumping gas is beneath him it seems. Mind you we don't live in a rural area, it's super suburban with stores and gas stations on every corner. He has a vehicle. His line of work is very slow in the winter. But the rent and everything else still has to be paid. Instead of looking for a steady job he will go hunting which does bring some food on the table so I am appreciative of that but my kids won't even eat venison so it doesn't help much lol. This is where most of our arguments come in. If I make him leave I'm still in the same boat with having to work a second job. I just don't know what to do anymore. When he does work he gives me $$$ but then it stops for 2 months and I'm stressing again. I'm not sure how AlAnon tools can work in this case.
Something another member said on another post struck me. Something to the effect that if you say nothing or remain calm the A thinks its all good and they continue doing what they are doing. This is where I throw my hands up.
As a side note, I am already living in the cheapest rental possible for my kids to stay in the same schools. My son is a junior and daughter will be a freshman in high school. I also work in the area. Unfortunately my salary is considered part of the middle class so I don't qualify for assistance such as food stamps and we have been selling things online. Any ESH is greatly appreciated!
Hi Rosanne, I so empathise and I agree that when it comes to financial inequity like this, saying/doing nothing is like giving consent for it to continue as it is and the resentment can just be so overwhelming.
Many here will say that in a relationship with an A and children we are basically single mothers and need to figure out unfortunately how to do everything and provide for the kids without expecting anything from the alcoholic which is unfortunately true BUT surely we have to draw the line at providing FOR the alcoholic as well. The only way to make that work for me was to scrutinise the budget and view him as if he were an unrelated lodger...what would I pay for/ provide in that instance? Nothing!! He would get work for a few months at a time followed by months or even years of unemployment and when you mention hunting, it reminds me of how he would do things like when he worked in a chicken factory he brought home 20 or so chickens, put them in the freezer and then seemed to think that this poultry contribution (lol I made a funny) entitled him to then eat drink and consume everything I paid for for the next year of his unemployment???? (I'm vegetarian, daughter doesn't eat chicken and the dog is allergic to it so, it was really just a gigantic nuisance) It seems to be a common trait for these non working partners to make odd and really not useful contributions and then demand to be supported in return. So very not acceptable.
I really feel for you and I think I've shared before that I began refusing to pay his share of bills etc. I really hope there is a way that you can make things more equitable and reduce the burden on yourself. Sending you hugs!!!
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
((Roseanne)) I second what Ms.M has suggested . Holding a family meeting, reviewing the budget, truly eliminating any unnecessary item might help a little. I know you have tighten your belts considerably just recently so that maybe talking to hubby about taking any other job would work this time.
Although my husband maintained a high paying job he spent most of his money in the Bar with friends and charged everything he could. I too acted like a single parent attempting to adjust my spending and , watch my money because i did not believe in fighting about money. When he passed the CC debt was huge.
For a few years I simply paid bills and covered the essentials -- no luxary items were included. It all did get paid off and I was finally able to resume a normal life style after a few difficult years. This is not easy
Prayers and positive thoughts on the way
Thank you MissMeliss and Betty for your replies. Betty, I can't imagine having a spouse making all that money just to blow it at the bar but I know it happens. We are in debt as well.
MissM I love your funny about the chickens that made me laugh. Just knowing that people can relate and have the same issues helps believe it or not. I know I sound like a broken record but I am so worried about this.
People tell me how cruel it would be to throw out a recovering alcoholic and I feel like the worst heel ever. I guess this is all part of the disease and I am having a hard time accepting it.
My next task is going through the bills like Betty said and eliminating any non-necessities. That includes cable TV which my son will throw a fit. He has severe anxiety and has been self-medicating with marijuana so I also have that to deal with. Every cent he makes doing little odd jobs or selling things goes to buy that. Without it he said he can't eat.
((Yankee Rose)) Just imagine your own reaction to a beloved sister or dear friend in your exact situation. Along comes anyone else and tells her that throwing out an alcoholic is cruel. What would your response be? Keep in mind you know that even though he may earn something, all of his earnings go toward his own extras. That's a tough position for anyone.
You have coping techniques for your situation to meet your goals. It's not comfortable or easy. It's not what you expected. The LAST thing you need is the judgement of someone who has zero understanding. Ouch
Rosanne what would happen if you stepped back and simply stopped paying for everything? I found when I stated to my A that I just couldn't afford to pay for all of the rent, or to pay the bills and if he didn't find a way to pay half we would lose the home, have the internet etc cut off and then showed that i meant it, he miraculously found work and/or funds to pay his share. I had to become extremely ruthless to make this happen as I've shared before.
Braces is a hard one, my daughter probably needs them really, and in fact her step mother has been badgering me about her needing them yet ex husband refuses to pay for any of them so, huh?????? We're just scraping by as it is!! The fact is she has teeth with a bit of character and I'm encouraging her to love them and enjoy her individuality because braces are just not remotely possible with only me to provide for everything.
I also had a lovely vision of you handing out coupons to your dependents and advising them to go use them, lol
It sounds as though you are carrying a huge burden all by yourself so I really hope there is a way to lessen it for you.
__________________
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Great suggestions, i never could play
Hardball with my ex until we were getting
divorced Then i suprised him, this doormat
had come off the floor.
We had financial problems too, we were living
Beyond our means after he had some job changes.
Now we had debt and lifestyle we could not afford
On one income.
I went back to work, making fairly good money
With health insurance. I now paid 1/2 of all bills.
That was still not good enough he got very nasty.
Blamimg Me for his problems even the financial
Ones.
Now he has all the debt, all his possessions and
Still owes me more. He will be in debt till he dies
Unless he sells everything.
MissMeliss, I hear you on the braces. My son's teeth are not so bad so he is getting by without them but unfortunately my daughter inherited my severely overcrowded mouth. She hates to smile and I totally understand since I don't think I smiled for a school pic until my braces came off (one of the best days of my life!). They are not cheap. I keep bringing that up to him that I have no clue how I will pay for everything. The thing is my credit is still very good and I'm trying so hard to keep it that way so if I stop paying on things, there goes my good credit. I may have to get ruthless and shut the cable off though. That will save me $130 a month. And cut way down on the snacks and goodies that everyone eats in two days.
Mirandac that is exactly what I feel like...a doormat. I'm glad you could relate.
I worked full time and went to a meeting every day in my first year of recovery. Just for me, I would rather deal with the work burden than the resentment of carrying a grown ass man financially.
I appreciate your honesty Pinkchip. It's very hard and I feel like I'm pulled in so many directions. And yes, the resentment just keeps building and building and I can't stop it.
I'm currently reading the Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage. I'm mid-book and it seems to me that it leans toward compassion for the A but then I don't want that to seem like I am babying a grown man. Very, very confused right now.
Just speaking about alcoholism and where he is at. It does sound like he is about the same age as your son. Adults generally need to learn to be self supporting. What would he do without you? Does he know how to pay bills, rent, budget, get health and car insurance, clean, do laundry? This is difficult to express and I dont have the right answer. Some depends on your values and the traditional division of labor in your marriage.
That being said. Much of getting sober for me (and others i know) is about growing up and pulling up the big boy undies. You can also make the point that him having a roof over his head and not learning, doing, and practicing those adult tasks i mentioned is keeping him childlike and stopping him from a fuller recovery. If you were to meet him now, would you be attracted? Would you respect him and see him as a grown up that brings something to an adult relationship. He deserves to become that. He wont see it that way im sure. I bitched and whined my way into adult functioning.
I dunno yankeerose...Like I said. It's complicated, but for your long term future, his growth, and to come back together as grown ups, maybe he needs to just function on his own for a designated period to show to himself and you that he is actually a grown up that can take care of himself.
I don't know. He will probably threaten to drink over it...may sabotage, but really...he has 7 months of kinda crappy recovery. It is not all about the months/years. This is food for thought...not to tell you what to do. For me, I was financially dependent somewhat on my parents due to my drinking. I acted entitled and resented them for needing them like tht at the same time. It was sick. Sobriety is about freedom. I am glad I can have adult relationships without that baggage now and that I forced myself to recover to that degree. Hope this helps in some way.
Hey Roseanne - I have to agree with Pinkchip.....having started my 12 Step journey on 'the other side', I was told that I needed to stay sober AND grow up. Growing up meant owning my debt, calling my creditors, making arrangements and paying my own way...
I came into the program a long while ago, and there were many old-timers and not many young folks. They didn't coddle me and there was a lot of pushing me to do better and be better. I believe had the ride been simple or easy, I would have gotten bored and perhaps returned to drinking/drugging. So, folks holding me accountable and teaching me how to be a better adult, employee, daughter, sister, friend, etc. were very, very necessary for me to get and stay sober.
I have never had a sponsor in recovery that would have allowed me to have a plan that included being dependent on others. That's just not how it was taught to me. I am of the mind-set that I would go out and flip burgers or sweep streets if that's what it took for me to be accountable and pay my way. No job is beneath me, I learned that in recovery. Humility is essential for my recovery - has always been and will always be.
If I change hats, and put on my Al-Anon hat, I understand the resentments as well as the dilemma of seeking a calm solution. My best outcomes have happened when I've written down exactly what the facts are. Then presented them calmly as if I were at work or in a business meeting brainstorming solutions. This tends to help me be less emotionally charged.....Of course, I am one who always writes about 'it', then prays about 'it' and discusses 'it' first with my sponsor for added guidance.
Whether he has a job or not and whether he wants a job or not should not affect who owns the 'worrying'. Even when my AH was incapable/unwilling to help out with things, I always made sure he knew exactly what was going on - as I feel better when I am not the only one worrying.
Of course, please take what you like and leave the rest - my mind is seriously in another place tonight due to some issues in my small piece of this world!
(((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Yankeerose, you wrote "If I make him leave I'm still in the same boat with having to work a second job."
Forgive me for not remembering the specifics of your situation, but is your AH the father of your children? If he is, and if you split up, the court would probably require him to pay child support. I was told that even for unemployed fathers, the minimum per child is around $200 - after all, even if the father is unemployed, the children still have to be supported.
It might not be a bad thing for a court to induce him to do what he should be doing, rather than it being up to your powers of persuasion. Courts can enforce things that individual people can't and shouldn't have to.
I know there's more to the situation than that, but I just wanted to throw that in in case that was a factor in your decision-making.
Hey Rose can appreciate your situation. My AH(long sober)and I share different tasks and one of mine has been physically paying the bills (he works and contributes), but I swear he was unable to write a check until he was 35 years old! During an argument about money we arrived at a solution--he would pay the bills. After a couple of months of playing "magician" and trying to cover all our bills, he was extremely appreciative of all I had done over the years and that carries over until today. I got the job back soon after but continued to clue him in monthly and we gradually made a budget and made financial decisions together. Eventually when I said "how can we afford this increase or that "thing" he was actually able to help me figure out how and his self esteem really soared. I realized I had kept him too long in the dark about stuff , in order not to worry him. My control issues created ineptitude on his part
Often times I say "what if I get hit by a bus? You have to know these things" and over the years showed him where the important paperwork is and the passwords (careful with these if common sense tells you to protect them). We did grown up stuff like make a will and get life insurance one step at a time together. He still wants no part of all the medical paperwork lol. We recently shopped together for cheaper cable and insurance in an effort to keep our bills down. Ask him to get you some insurance quotes or to call and find out what the bill would be if you dropped the premium channels and went to basic cable. Anything to get him involved in the money--baby steps
Show him in a non-confrontational way little by little and he may just "get" that you have been financially acting like a single parent. He needs to know what you go through on a daily basis and how much pressure it is. We are not in the best financial situation, but I find when I don't worry about it, there always seems to be "enough".
My AD newly sober has no job right now, school loans are coming due and she is still living at home with us. She has been a financial disaster so I am going at this again with her. She shopped for her own car insurance and I am hopeful for the first time that she will be able to manage to keep a bank account open. Teaching the sober girl is different from the using girl because now she can actually "hear" me. Plus I'm able to say it nicer now instead of berating.
Both of you have given me great insight and a lot to think about. I am probably enabling again in some way. Hearing from others who are recovering in AA helps a great deal because I cannot begin to understand exactly what he is going through. But you both have given me that glimpse of what a good recovery looks like.
Pinkchip that is a tough question if I would be attracted to him now. We met when I was a lot younger. I always say if I ever have the chance to do things over again with a relationship I would have four prerequisites: no addictions, must have a car, must have a job and must have own place to live. Of course that's easy for me to say now. Who knows what will happen in the future. But I would certainly hope I'm a bit wiser at my age and after everything I've experienced thus far.
Iamhere I am like you. No job is beneath me. I cleaned toilets on the weekends to make ends meet and got paid pretty darn well for it. I have lived on my own since I was 21. AH kind of "drifted" from parents house to living with roommates who no longer wanted him there because he couldn't pay the rent. Now that I look back there were so many red flags. But I didn't care because I was 27 and thought my biological clock was just ticking away! Boy am I paying for it now.
And honestly, I have no idea what he tells his sponsor or what his sponsor tells him. I do know he has one and that they speak on the phone frequently. For all I know he tells him he has a wonderful job and work is just slow right now. Which is only partly true. Again prayers on the way for your Aunt.
Yes Mattie he is their father. I have thought about child support but they would have to put him in jail because you cant get blood from a stone. There are no wages to garnish. Any work he does is off the books. I know so many people trying to get child support from their exes through the courts and don't. My one friend they can't even find her kid's father. It's all pretty unfair to the spouses who have to work like hell to make ends meet. That's my experience in NJ anyway. I do know they will also suspend your drivers license. But it just seems they are unable to make someone work. They do sweeps every now and then for "deadbeat" moms and dads and their names make the newspaper. So embarrassing for the kids too.
Thorn I do like your idea. I have written down all the bills and showed him how much they are but actually letting him pay them is another thing. I usually do all that online so I may just show him how. Thanks all for your input. Any and all ideas are appreciated!
Wow, YankeeRose! What a powerful topic and replies!! I'm shaking my head because I'm in the same situation, yet different! THAT sounds ridiculous but my life feels ridiculous right now! I would love to be able to offer a solution, but unfortunately I can't. All I can offer is an online (((hug))) and a prayer that your situation improves. Do you think your son would talk to a therapist? That might help his anxiety more than the pot, but I know many people are opposed to that idea. A lot of companies have free sessions for employees and their families. Just a thought. You can only do what is right for your situation, although I like many of the replies and will work hard myself on many of the suggestions given. My husband and I had always been in a position where we could help my AD out financially......and we always did! Before he got sick, we talked about cutting her off and making her take responsibility for her own life and family, and now that he's gone, I HAVE to learn to do that, or I will wind up homeless! It's hard for me with my daughter, so I can't imagine what you are going through. It's easier said than done. I thought I was making great strides until I did my budgeting earlier and realized I paid almost $1000 in her and her ex's bills this past month, and that didn't include what I paid for with her 5 kids. I'm mad! Mad at myself for allowing them to talk me into things I don't want to do!! She's ruthless when she wants me to pay for something and I may just need to stop contact with her for awhile, in order to be strong! I know something has to change, and that something has got to be me!! Good luck YR and thank you everyone, because I, too, am taking a lot away from this post!!
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KathyRN
"A PROBLEM IS ONLY A PROBLEM, IF YOU CHOOSE TO SEE IT AS A PROBLEM!"
Thank you for your kind words Kathy and I am truly sorry for what you are going through with your AD and for the loss of your husband. It is so hard doing it all alone and it is so hard when it's your child.
In response to your question about therapy for my son, yes he has seen two therapists and a psychiatrist and also tried a couple different meds specifically antidepressants. They turned him into a zombie and at times he got very angry to the point he put his hand through his bedroom window. I have had him at the crisis center and called rehabs but they tell me there is no inpatient facility to get off marijuana. I realize it's legal in some states but if I'm not mistaken you still have to be 21 by law. He is only 16 and been smoking since 8th grade. He literally throws up if he doesn't have it. He has become so dependent on it. I wish there was a pill that mimics pot for him. I have no idea what this is doing to his lungs and brain. I have had him to gastro doctors and numerous tests done on his stomach. They found nothing physically wrong with him.
So with all this, I sometimes feel like running far, far away.
I'm so glad you got some good insight from the posts. Everyone on this board has been a Godsend. It's really my only outlet right now. Peace and hugs!
Glad to hear Taraxacum. This morning AH said he would be looking for more steady work. I kind of take that with a grain of salt, but it still made me happy that somehow maybe everything I said got through to him and instead of just staring at me when I say these things he actually has a plan. That's all I ask is that he try so the burden is not all on me.
I wrote a really long post but the board must have glitched and posted just the most important piece, my gratitude.
my share:
My AH is high functioning and dry for long stretches. He has a steady job and handles the bulk of our bills. And his thinking on money is very adolescent. He laments about wanting tattoos or more money for eating out, but doesn't care about retirement savings or life insurance. He also thinks his life would be perfect if I supported him financially and he no longer needed to work.
I see him making progress and feel compassionate towards him for his disease. And it is exhausting trying to parent him into adult behaviors and attitudes. I am learning to let go, and stop trying to fix him.
Good for you Taraxacum. I have been trying to fix him for years and it gets exhausting and frustrating. I don't expect him to support me but I do expect him to support his kids and if he is living with us to pay toward the rent and other household bills. But I realize when someone has the disease of alcoholism, even in recovery, my expectations should be low.
