The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I've been faced with some big challenges in friendships lately and I've been thinking about the patterns that run through my relationships.
In many of them, it's mostly me giving and them taking. But I've typically felt I was so lucky to have a partner or a friend that I had no choice but to accept those things, unless I wanted to be alone forever and ever.
But the subject came up for me because I have two important friendships now where it's "friendship on their terms," and where the amount of unreciprocated giving I have to do is just more than I can sustain. It reminds me so much of all the bending over backwards I've done to keep partners in my life.
The other pattern I have is that when the strain gets too much, I just back off and never say anything and fade away. I know sometimes they are baffled by this. I don't give them a chance. But now I realize that pretending I'm okay with something I hate is not really "keeping the peace" - it becomes more like lying.
So my challenge is how to bring something up without causing a big drama. Bringing it up gently and releasing all expectations of what the response will be. Just considering it a success that I spoke authentically. It's finding the kind and calm middle ground between "I can't stand your terrible behavior" and "Go ahead and run me over with the tractor some more, that's great by me!"
I'm realizing that this is how I ended up with alcoholics and addicts and people who were unhealthy in a dozen different ways. I did anything to "keep the peace." If I did speak up, it was all high drama with all kinds of expectations attached.
I hope this is making sense. I always blamed all the problems on "them," but I see that I was the author of those situations too. Now I need to do it differently.
I wonder if anyone has any examples of times they spoke up kindly and authentically? It sure didn't happen in my family of origin. So I'm having to do it from scratch.
I can relate to this, and can't really offer an example. Its either Edna,silent one, or Edna sledgehammer. Balance is always my work in progress. Looking forward to other replies.
I too can relate to this, darn it!! Especially the bit about choosing to just fade away - that is a new thought for me, but one that I recognise.
It is funny because in my work life I have often had to say no to people and I have a reputation for doing it gently and with diplomacy. I do not suffer guilt in that kind of situation, I guess because I am doing it for a cause other than myself. But if someone important to me asks if I can stand still while they run me over with a tractor, to use your analogy, that 'can' word gets me every time because my thinking is 'well yes, perhaps I can do that. Is it really necessary? Oh, well in that case please go ahead'. Then I'll pat myself on the back and say well not many folks would have done that, and yet I did it!! And therein l I find one of the unhealthy paybacks that I've grown so accustomed to!! (I suspect that I just felt relief when the challenge was over as well!).
I am finding that my alanon journey is teaching me to be more caring to myself and I am more able to say 'I am not comfortable with that.' Listening to myself, pausing to sense what I'm really feeling has helped me to avoid that fizzy, frustrated anger that comes up, but is rarely expressed, when I'm over stretched by another person's needs.
It is definitely something new that I'm learning about because in my family of origin we were all fairly independent and looked out for each other and there wasn't a great deal of taking.
Mattie great question and awareness. Prior to program I would fade away without explanation . A reading in the ODAT reminded me that this is a great unkindness so I stopped"fading" away and attempted to use alanon tools to express my needs. I did this first with alanon friends and then expanded it out of the rooms.
In business this was not difficult, as acting in a professional manner allowed me to be firm as well as sensitive and I was not emotionally invested. In my personal life, I have learned to say what I need and mean what I say and trust the process .In my relationship, that I have had with my partner of 27 years, I found that when my son was really acting out, I made decisions he did not approve of . I verbalized my choices firmly and let it go . I never tried to influence the solution, and as a result we separated for 2 years,- keeping in touch by email occasionally. After my son passed we reconnected stronger than before. Alanon tools helped me to trust that no matter what I would be Ok and I was.
Unfortunately i still allow my family to call the shots because they cannot hear me and I can honestly say"How important is it"?.
I could have written your post myself and I have been meditating on similar lines recently.
I certainly didn't learn to speak calmly about my needs in my family or origin. May dad and I would often escape together on little trips (getting gas, groceries, going fishing, working on cars in the garage) as a way to get away from the demands of the high drama and mental instability all around.
Recently, we have both been working on expressing needs and concerns in a more balanced way to one another, and messing up a lot along the way, but also recognizing that and stating it, moving ourselves and our conversation more to balance.
The recent doings with my wife is a good example. My dad knows that she was in jail and is now on probation. He also knows that she finally got a job. I am still pretty miffed about the windshield thing, and when we were working on replacing the glass, that came up. I made an effort to not drag other issues into the broken windshield discussion, and my dad recognized that we were getting a bit down, and said, "well, I really didn't want to get into this and ruin our day." And we both took a deep breath, and let the cause of the broken windshield go, and focused on having fun working in the garage together.
My wife and I are also working on more balanced communication, and I am really struggling not to predict anger or drama on her part.
__________________
Skorpi
If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. - Lao Tzu
Communication is so dang hard, isn't it? I let go of a friend about 6 years ago because I felt this very same thing. She even confronted me via email because I went silent for so long and I couldn't answer her honestly. I have since made amends to her last year and we rekindled our relationship but I saw that she hadn't changed and I didn't want to be around her unhealthy relationship style anymore.
Honestly, when it comes to friendships, I don't have much advice because it depends on the person and their sensitivities to these types of confrontations. I know that, for me, I would probably just cut back on my giving and if I were pushed to explain why, then I would tell the truth and express my concerns. But I doubt it would come out all nice and pretty and delivered gently. It would probably come out all jumbled and garbled and I would probably disappear afterwards for a while to give my friend space.....but that's just me and I'm not exactly a pillar of healthy communication here anyway, lol.
I wish I had a better answer here. I love your honesty and self awareness, though, Mattie. It really says a lot here about how you are taking ownership of your part anyway. HUGS!!!
__________________
Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
Mattie - thank you for such an honest, thought-provoking post. I too can totally relate. In my brain, I think I do more than my fair share. This is beyond friendships - it's in everything. Having said that, I am a high energy person and when I set my mind to something, I am 100% in. Of course, I can do this, burn myself out and then I am 100% out. In the past, I too would either fade away or I would create a huge stage with drama and chaos to make my grand departure.
I've come to realize that my people picker was very broken. When meeting new people, I always tended to gravitate towards the sickest in the room. I believed spiritually grounded people were boring. So - once I began to change and value quality of life over anything else, I and things around me slowly began to change. I've got some long term friends who are draining beyond belief. I've kept in touch but made myself less available. I have applied the program tools and detached with kindness, respect and love. I truly had no choice as those who take, take, take all the time tend to suck me dry.
I've just realized that my picker was 'less broken' in my first 20 years of life. This past weekend, I went with 5 other women to the lake. I sat in awe of the genuine kindness, laughter, friendship and love that we all experienced. We have no been texting each day joking still about our together time. What a gift. It's been an eye-opener for me to see that as I began adulthood, I began some habits/patterns that contributed to how I 'choose' people as 'friends' or 'loves'.
For me, because relationships with me have been so perplexing, this is one area that I certainly use 'When in doubt, don't.' I am hopeful that as I continue to grow and learn and get well in this program, friendships and choosing trusted friends will become easier. It seems that a few I've added lately are a bit better, but I again have a super needy person who wants more than I am willing to give. It's yet another progress not perfection area for me.
I do know that I would rather have fewer quality friendships that matter to me than have a ton of acquaintances that I can't call/ask/share with. I too appreciate your post and love the input so far!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Great post and replies. Just the awareness of our short comings here is huge. I'm still a work in progress on this one. Sometimes I feel more confident than other times. Living for years feeling less than and people pleasing takes time to overcome. With my Sponsors and God's assistance I've learned and practice these solutions.
- Pray for Gods assistance
- Talk it through with someone(Sponsor)
- People Pleasing is a selfish behavior- a behavior that I'm trying to rid myself from.
- Mean what you say, say what you mean, just try not to say it meanly.
- If I'm honest with someone, there feelings are not my business.
- No is a complete sentence.
- We no longer need to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain our decisions- Unless we want too.
I guess it came down to me trying to communicate better in all my relationships. To be honest with myself and others. Take action and turn the results over to God. Sometimes I say the wrong thing, the wrong way and vomit all myself. But, at least I'm trying and that's all I can ask of myself. Without action there is no solution.
This is a great topic for me. I appreciate others' input, because this has made me feel completely alone. I've been trapped when I suspect my attempt at talking about it to the offending friend (ouch what a phrase) is my attempt to change her behavior.
How can I be OK with a troubling friendship when I can't change their behavior? (ridiculous, I know)
MikeB yes communicating better in all my relationships would help. Pray more. I will.
I am grateful for this input.
I personally, do not find that, especially after working the Al-Anon program, it is productive, to address directly my displeasure for someone's behavior. If I don't feel that a relationship/friendship is at least semi-reciprocal, I tend to look at myself first, is my expectations asking to much of that person and is the relationship a healthy one to begin with. I tend to just cool it with the person and mind my own business. How I feel is something that is personal and by talking with someone about their behavior just seems to be to manipulative.
-- Edited by Debb on Wednesday 11th of November 2015 11:26:11 AM
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
Hmm, examples.
I've been practicing this and with some successes I think.
I try just calmly and politely letting people know what I require of them and keeping in mind that if they value me, they WILL make adjustments accordingly.
I'm trying to keep in mind that if i want to change the rules (aka my boundaries) then I do owe it to people to at least let them know what those rules are. People have become accustomed to a certain kind of Melly and I can't expect them to know what my boundaries are now unless I tell them!
"I" statements as always are a must to make it work. You can't go wrong laying boundaries when you stick with "what i require" and not 'what you do wrong". I think
__________________
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Great awareness. We're never anyones victim in most circumstances. Whenever I feel like the poor me's. 'Im getting a worse deal' or i feel Im losing out in relationships then it could be that i am people pleasing and like you said it is dishonest. Mostly dishonest with ourselves. I have a problem with fear of people leaving me or rejecting me, another very good reason to end up with an alcoholic.
Its good to remember our program is never about changing another, we dont have the power and trying to think up the right set of words to make someone behave in the way we want is manipulative. So it only leaves the changing to be done by us. Our thought processes or our attitude. Self pity is a common symptom for us and it creeps in for me often and sometimes I dont recognise it. Accepting others as they are completely is freedom. Setting boundaries around what I will accept belongs soley to me, its my responsibility to decide what I will put up with and dont put up with what I wont. For me it can be a simple 'i' statement like I would like .... or wouldnt like.... I remove myself from situations Im not comfortable in. I reach out to people and I dont keep count.
I love the prayer on the Just for Today card. Its so true, when we seek to understand rather than be understood, console rather than be consoled, love rather than seek to be loved etc. It works. Im much happier keeping my eyes on me and my side of this and then it does come to me. The good stuff, the love, understanding etc.
Yes, the more I think about it, the more it's people-pleasing, or at least being too scared to trust my real responses.
I'll give an example of how I think it tends to go. I have a friend who is a lovely person but overschedules herself badly. So she would arrive an hour late when we had arranged to meet up. Sometimes she would forget entirely. I'd be waiting at the restaurant, coffee shop, movie, house, or wherever, and time would go by... Sometimes she'd contact me to say she was sorry she was running late. Sometimes she'd just arrive late in a great flurry. Sometimes she just forgot and she'd never say anything. So if she contacted me, I'd say, "Well, come when you can." And she'd apologize when she arrived, and I'd say, "Well, okay, sounds like you're busy." But it kept happening and it bugged me more and more. I don't mean 10-15 minutes late, I mean an hour or more. And I never even mentioned the times she forgot. I felt somehow humiliated and pathetic that I was sitting there waiting for someone who didn't even remember me. So my resentment was growing and she was just going about life as normal. She knows she's late to things, but she just considers it a regrettable fact of life.
So I decided I would only agree to do things with her where I wouldn't be inconvenienced by her lateness, like if I was home anyway, or going to a movie in a group. She kept forgetting she'd arranged to come to my house, so I decided I wouldn't invite her over any more, I'd just accept invitations to her house, because then she couldn't be "late." But then I accepted an invitation and she wasn't even home when I got there. I waited a while and she didn't come, so I left. She was very apologetic later, but I was livid. I mean this is after 5-6 years of this stuff. And often I have turned something else down because I've agreed to get together with her. But still I didn't say much to her.
So now really I'm faced with either not getting together with her at all any more, or saying something. So now there's a danger it's a big drama. I wish I had said something early on, and if necessary something all along. Like, "I love hanging out with you, but you came an hour late on Tuesday. I didn't know what had happened and I was worried something had happened to you. It turned out you had overscheduled yourself. When this happens it is hard for me. I hope we can make this work but I can't make appointments you don't show up for any more." Or, whatever, something like that. Then if she keeps doing it, I find ways to distance or protect myself. But as it is it is 5-6 years of increasing resentment for me, to the point where I'm ready to break off the friendship, and she hardly knows I even notice. That doesn't sound right.
The one or two times people have told me, gently, when my actions bothered them, I've been very grateful. I'd much rather know than lose the friendship. I don't mean unwarranted criticism, I mean when I genuinely have been careless with people's feelings. For instance, one friend told me that she was bothered that she left me phone messages but I tended not to return her calls. I had no idea it affected her or that she even noticed. I was glad to know.
This example I just gave isn't even the person I'm worried about right now. But it's an example of how I run my friendships generally. I am thinking of the saying "You teach people how to treat you." I guess I've taught my friend that being late and forgetting are just fine with me. But that's a big lie.
Mattie, your post makes a lot of sense to me. It was my habit to keep accept the same unacceptable behavior in acquaintances and rationalize that we're all imperfect human being. It didn't matter that their behavior hurt me, I got to have a "friend." The quality of that "friendship" might be lacking but I denied that and kept coming back for mistreatment. When I could no longer take the pain of association, I retreated and ceased contact. This was my problem, Mattie. I made others my hp. The idea of standing up for myself was just out of the question.
Confronting someone is a risk and the unknown always feels a little precarious for me even today but I bring hp with me and I confront anyway. I usually arrange for a time and place to speak or by phone with the other person that is free of other distractions. I might invite them out for a cup somewhere. I don't need to explain beforehand why. I've simply said that I needed to speak with them about something that's important to me. I like to begin the conversation by telling them that I value them as a person and friend and that I hope they feel the same. I've mentioned good times that we shared as a way of affirming my feelings of closeness for that other person and that I would like to look forward to more such times with one another. At this point during this "good energy" I'll state what took place or continues to take place concerning my friend's behavior. I try to voice this with just facts and leave any judgement of the behavior out of it. A personal example of mine is that the other person would phone me at the last minute and break plans over and over again. In this case, the person had a myriad of excuses - lack of funds, household crisis etc. I resolved this by enjoying their friendship only when that person was part of a group who were meeting for a social get together. I could still enjoy their company within the safety of a group and reserve my one to one friendships for people who were respectful of my time and reliable. It was best to tell this person that I liked her very much but she seemed very busy. I told her I'd love to hear from you by phone anytime and hope the next time the whole gang meets, you might join us. In this way, I was able to maintain the friendship on limited terms.
I have close friendships with people are caring and respectful today. Not a lot of them, Mattie but a few good friends. I think it takes time to find true friends who are keepers. It easy to have lots of acquaintances especially if you're willing to forfeit your dignity. I rather have quality than quantity. Because I feel this way, I can say what I mean without saying it mean and let go of the outcome if I feel someone isn't being a good friend to me. I'm willing to go through some momentary discomfort by addressing the issue with the other person because if I don't I'm not being a good friend to myself.
I would hope a friend would speak to me rather than not see them any longer because of a behavior of mine. If I have a defect that I'm projecting onto another person and it's affecting them, I'd like to know that. I can grow more aware of how I'm interacting with other people. I can decide whether there is validity to what they are telling me, get feedback from my sponsor about it and if needed make changes for the better.
Hope something here helped. (((hugs))) TT
__________________
Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
TT, thank you, that is so helpful. I am so reassured knowing that other people have faced these problems too.
To caricature the situation a little bit, my current friend-that-I-have-a-problem-with did a thing that was difficult for me for twenty-five years. We didn't have contact for a while (partially as a result of this), and now we're in contact again. And she's just done it again, in a way that's especially hard for me. So I feel like saying (though I know this is unhelpful), "WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING! I CANNOT STAND THIS ONE MORE TIME, DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME, YOU %$#*!!!" (Add about 15 minutes of swearing.) And she would obviously think, "She has gone off the deep end, I just did this one thing for a completely reasonable reason, what is her problem??" And I would say "YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS INTOLERABLE THING FOR TWENTY-FIVE YEARS! AND I CANNOT STAND ONE MORE INSTANCE OF IT, NO WAY, NOHOW! DO YOU HEAR ME????!!!!" (Another 15 minutes of swearing and maybe some explosions.)
So my challenge is condensing this into a gentle little talk.
It sure makes me wish I had just spoken up early on.
(I have never yelled at a friend like that or even in any way. But I guess I always felt as if my options were keep to quiet or to yell the house down. So I kept quiet. Who knew there was a middle road?)
Another thing about speaking up early on is that then I'd get to see whether they were responsive to my comments or whether they just blew them off and did the same old thing. And if then I backed off from the friendship/relationship ... what years of turmoil I would have saved myself. And suffering through the shenanigans of alcoholics and addicts.
Mattie, it sounds like this person really pushes your buttons. Whether they are doing what they're doing intentionally or oblivious to it; the result is the same - you are affected by their behavior. Of course you know already that we can't change others behavior only our response to it. Just like screaming and threats by family may have caused the alcoholic to abstain for a day, those threats didn't work longterm for keeping them sober. I think the same can be said for other behaviors. You may shock your friend with your reaction but longterm.. this person will only change if they care to change and have the capacity to do so. I've had people in my life who had the willingness and genuinely didn't want to repeat behaviors that upset others but they just forgot over and over again. Such a person in my humble opinion is not trying to intentionally harm and they genuinely feel bad when they do. It's been my experience, that some discomfort within them causes these things to happen again and again and we can become the unfortunate recipients of outcomes of that discomfort. Sounds a bit like alcoholism huh?
Mattie, you are the one who knows what the offense is and whether you can QTIP quit taking it personally. You will decide whether there are enough admirable qualities about this person to merit rekindling your friendship or if this one behavior is a deal breaker. Sometimes one behavior really is a deal breaker. Sometimes things just aren't fixable between people.
I think the good news here is that you've grown. Sometimes the tough news is that others still may be displaying the same behaviors we once accepted with silence and an unresolved resentment. They wonder why we're so upset now. We never showed upset to this extreme in the past. They are doing what they've always done but now we're way more angry! Congrats Mattie, you've got a program :) and are having growing pains.
Well, maybe some time with hp will help for reasoning all of this out. Definitely a time for the Serenity Prayer too. (((hugs))) TT
__________________
Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
While I understand the need to scream and vent and the desire we have for ourselves to be heard by our friends and acquaintances, we all know that the approach is harsh. I know that if it were me I would say something along the lines of, "Friend, I have to tell you that when you are late to our meetings/get togethers/dinners, I feel disrespected and it hurts. I'm sure you're not intentionally trying to hurt me but I feel unimportant and that my time isn't valuable to you. What do you think about that?" And, then wait to see the response. Once they apologize, like most good people do, you can ask the person to discuss solutions and work to that solution together. If she changes and makes effort, you'll know she values you and can be empathetic towards your feelings. If she doesn't change or just isn't capable of changing, then you have your answer and you can respond accordingly depending on what you find acceptable or unacceptable with her.
You get to choose, Mattie, what will work for you and yes, it's painful to lose friends or to have to test a relationship. Honestly, I wish relationships weren't so dang hard but people are imperfect and we get to choose the ones we want in our lives as close friends, the ones we keep as acquaintances, and the ones we choose to let go of for now. You'll find your way, you always do! HUGS!
__________________
Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I relate to this so much. I feel like I am much more aware of it now since going to the meetings. But that does not change the the fact that I need to get over my fear of the outcome when confronting these issues. That's my biggest hurtle fear, and boy is it a doozy. I'm new and still working on my first step. I know I am powerless its very clear to me but I still need to come to peace with that.
Especially the bit about choosing to just fade away - that is a new thought for me, but one that I recognise.