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I have a question. I am trying to decide if I can live with the way my new boyfriend handles affection. I am trying to figure out if it's my own emptiness from living with alcoholism for so long that is making me more needy and craving affection, or if it's just the fact that I need more from him than he is capable of giving. I went three years at the end of my marriage without sex and without any type of affection, and granted that was the way I wanted it but now I am feeling that I constantly want my bf to touch me or rub his hand along the small of my back or hold my hand in public, etc etc. Now, I want to say, though, that he does do these things....just not enough, lol, and that's where the problem comes in.
We have talked about our love languages and mine is definitely physical touch while his primary love language is acts of service, which would explain why he gets up before me and makes me tea and brings it to me in bed, and then makes my breakfast and gets stuff out of my car when I just barely mention having left something in there, etc. He is extremely giving and kind but not much of a communicator of feelings both verbally or physically. I have no idea how the man actually feels about me, but his actions tell me that he wants me around for a while. Yesterday I met a lot of his family and we took his brother's boat out on the lake. His brother is an alcoholic and I got to see his own family's dysfunction with his grown nieces and how they interact with their father (serious issues there) and my bf made no apologies for them, he accepts these people for who they are, and he didn't explain away their behaviors to me. He knows I know what alcoholic dysfunction looks like and I found it so easy to be around these people (not because I am familiar with alcoholic dysfunction) because my bf didn't make a big deal about who they were or how they were acting. He never apologizes for other people, he never makes excuses for them, and it's very refreshing to be around someone who seems to just love people where they're at. Obviously, that was something I needed program for in my own walk with my family dysfunction.
It was funny: last night I was sitting on the couch with him and we were watching a movie and I chose not to lay all over him like I used to and I was just thinking that it was time for me to bring it up gently and talk about how we are doing meeting each other's needs etc. Just as I was about to open my mouth to talk he reached over and grabbed my hand and threw his other arm around my shoulder. ARRGGHHH....I had just had it all figured out and then he decides to reach out, LOL.
We have a great relationship so far and I'd hate to throw in the towel on something great just because I feel that my needs aren't getting met. I constantly try to figure out if my needs are unrealistic especially when I'm dealing with a man who's personality is introverted, shy, reserved, etc. He is the exact opposite in many ways from my X and I love that about him because it's very new to me to be with an introverted thinking person instead of an emotional needy man like my X was.
Anyway, I am basically going through a bunch of FOO stuff (family of origin) and alcoholism whiplash here. The big question for me is: am I too needy, do I expect too much from a partner? Or, if I were a NORMAL person without the history of neglect and abandonment, would this relationship be meeting my needs?
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
Have you asked him to be more physical like that? I am kinda like you but I didn't need someone who initiated that constantly. I at least needed someone that would not tell me to stop if I initiated affection or tell me I was hanging on them too much. I would begin initiating conversations about feelings and such. Be honest. You guys need to be able to talk about all sorts of things. Don't just sit back and wonder. Ask. If you can work through this stuff easily, then it's a good indicator to keep moving forward. If not, you have your answer. I see you as being fearful of being direct so you are leaving a lot in limbo. There is a way for you guys to discuss things without you sounding like a needy coda weirdo.
I agree deb, but sometimes a guy might just thing he's "not supposed" to do those thing or a woman doesn't like that amount of touching all the time. Maybe "ask" is not the right word. If you say you really like those things and he still doesn't do them...then you have your answer.
One question also might be whether you've always been very much a touching-type person or whether this is partly a reaction to being starved for so long. If it's a result of being starved, and your bf steps up to the plate and is able to give when asked, it might be that part of the craving is the need for reassurance and that the importance of it will die down over time (though not to nothing - just the extra craving part).
I know that in normal (I mean non-alcoholic) relationships, people tend to carve out ways of being that are sort of the opposite of each other - one will pursue so the other one pursues less, one will be more reserved and then the other will pursue. Sometimes it can get out of balance. But it does sound as if that was what was happening when he reached over to you - when you didn't "pursue," he felt his own need for closeness more. Granted, if the relationship is dysfunctional it really gets out of whack. But in functional relationships too people sometimes get into little niches about it. I had a friend who was doing her PhD on this and it was an eye-opener!
Mattie brings up a good point. In my prior relationships, I was never touchy feeling and actually hated public displays of affection, etc.
I have to say, though, that the man is not devoid of any and all affection. We went to the movies with my friend and he had no problem holding my hand and then having his hand on my leg the whole time. While out with family yesterday on his brother's boat, he did put his arm around me at one point, and when I wake up in the AM he oftentimes will throw himself over me and hold me before we get up.
And, I also want to make it clear that I've told him that if I get too needy or touchy with him that he has every right to ask me to back off. He hasn't. Actually, if I initiate any contact he never pulls away, never balks at it, and always reciprocates.
Anyway, it's just those CODA thoughts and dysfunction that get in my brain and I wonder how much of it is just ME feeling like I need to fill some void that I've been missing for so long or if it's me truly being a mismatch with this guy. Honestly, I don't want to go there with my thinking yet because I truly care for him and I do feel he cares for me, as well.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I am NOT a touchy feelie kind of person - so I would view you as 'needy'. My point is....you may not be needy but based on my frame of reference and upbringing, I am who I am.
I think what's more important than if he touches you enough is are you able to talk freely about your wants/needs? My As have spent a ton of time suggesting my wants/needs are 'ridiculous' so I tend to reserve conversation unless it's super important to me. Having said that, if I were to ever consider another partner at a future point in my life, my number one criteria would be comfortable communication. If that raised red flags for me, that would be a deal-breaker.
So - you and I would not be compatible, as I would not be able to meet your needs. I believe where couples get into trouble is when they try to be something they aren't are are not comfortable with.
I don't know if this helps or not but I admire you for the topic and the open share!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Iamhere, that is very important too and I do struggle with this. Pinkchip referred to it above about making sure I can communicate effectively because that will show me really how well we are matched. Honestly, we do talk a lot to each other: about our past relationship mistakes, what we've struggled with in interpersonal relationships, and about our family of origin issues. So, we should be comfortable enough speaking to each other about our feelings but it's really never come up and yes, Mark was right....I have some fear wrapped around that type of conversation. I know I need to address that and this guy seems like a safe person for me to do this with as far as I can tell. I'm going to his place tonight; we're making dinner together so maybe I can talk to him later? UGH....
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
My hope is that your ease of communication continues - I think that is so important.
I can only speak for myself but I feel I have spent so much time walking on eggshells, not saying how I truly feel for an assortment of reasons and not being true to me.
I just wanted you to know that FOO and past experiences does affect so many things, please know that if he's not super touchy/feelie - it doesn't mean he's not into you. It just means it's an uncomfortable place for him.
It took me a long while to hug people in the program. I am still guarded with new members, but I try. I am more inclined to be like he is - show someone I care by doing for them.
(((Hugs))) that your evening goes great and the conversations is better than great!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
LOL, well our conversation didn't go where I thought it would but we talked about fears in relationships (well, I did anyway) and when I asked him about relationship fears he said, "I don't know. I don't think I have any." Well, that was a foreign concept to me. He went on to explain that his perspective on relationships have changed over the years and that he will never try to force a relationship again and that he believes every relationship he is in is a choice. But, that really, he has no deep seated fears about relationships or the outcomes or whatever.
He did tell me that he's never had a crazy or emotionally unstable girlfriend ever and that he's never dated addicts or people with serious issues like depression. He said he can usually weed those women out. I guess I can take that as a compliment since his perspective on me must fit that category, LOL. Nice to know I'm not crazy or unstable. So, program must actually have helped me to some degree right?
There's still a lot about this man that I don't know and I am trying really hard to not judge, to remember that the past is the past, and that I am staying with him as a choice not because I need him just as he is doing with me.
__________________
Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I hesitated responding to this posting because I believe that, with the help of HP I must satisfy my Own needs and that in a relationship I am never going toNeed anyone again .
I have always examined my motives and looked at my needs changed them all into wants and then proceeded to go get them. It sounds as if this gentleman is healthy and loving and I would simply connect with him and see where it goes. If you feel you need more cuddling then ask for it and see what happens .: My Principles are : I want you , I love you but I am never going to NEED you . That is what I aim for in all my relationships I only NEED HP
This is my favorite quote on the subject:
Hope and faith goes hand-in-hand, because without hope there is no faith. The same goes with want and needs, without any wants, there no need to have a need.
Betty, your quotes bring me such comfort. "I want you , I love you but I am never going to NEED you" is incredibly powerful. I want to share something that I found on another site. It hit home because my A has always said that using the word "but" negates everything said before it. Although I could understand his point, I found it difficult to express myself at times because, for me, "but" is a very commonly used word and doesn't need to be viewed negatively. For him, it was black and white.
Anyway, the post talked about using the word "and" in place of "but". They used the example "my husband is a wonderful man, but he's an alcoholic" vs "my husband is a wonderful man and he's an alcoholic". Two very different statements. When I shared this with my mom she used it in a more general sense and it worked then too. "It's a beautiful day, but it's really windy" vs "it's a beautiful day and it's very windy". The day is still beautiful regardless of the wind.
My A and I are not together at this time. It's too bad because I would have tried to incorporate this little change into our conversations.
I can't help but smile thinking of the old Meatloaf song, "Two out of three ain't bad". His lyrics were "I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way I'm ever going to love you". I think he had it backwards ....😄
Thank you Betty for that.
I love what you said because I know the truth behind it all. And, yes, he is loving and healthy and self confident. He marches to the beat of his own drummer and he's very clear about that. We're honest about the fact that we trust each other, we are kind to one another, and we make effort weekly to spend quality time together. He's been a HUGE blessing in my life. Unfortunately, my fears of losing the relationship get in the way of me just being in 'today' and loving 'what is'. I really need to work on that and meditate daily on doing the best I can to stay in today and stop fearing the future because only my HP knows what that may look like!
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I am glad you had a great conversation and 'normal' people can't ever relate to what we've been through. I love what Betty has shared as she's spot on ... we don't need people for surviving; we only need our HP.
My 'need' above is for all of my relationships. I'm not in the market for anything beyond friends, and I've got very specific criteria now. Honest, open communication is key for me and I will walk if they are gossipy - I have come to find that almost intolerable. I don't decipher between 'good and bad gossip' - I've got a program acquaintance and when I ask, "How are you?" She tends to answer by telling me what she knows about others instead of how she really is. I told her my feelings and she didn't agree and we're not close as this is an issue for me.
You will be perfectly fine so long as you are relying on your program and your HP! Relationships come and go but HP is ever-present.
I love MEATLOAF songs!!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
This is a really interesting question to me because I am not a touchy feely person and I don't like a lot of physical contact. I think I am an affectionate person in that I want and need a quick hug and kiss each time I see the people closest to me, or of course physical intimacy with a partner but as far as touching when we are sitting on the couch or being pressed up close when sleeping, I find it unbearable. I know that has been upsetting to some of my partners and my child sometimes likes to throw herself over me when we watch TV and don't even get me started on the cat trying to sit on me all the time, UGH! lol. I tend to say 'I am not furniture" a lot.
I would hate to think it was a deal-breaker with a partner as I don't know that it is something I could negotiate. I often "conceded' with Abf and allowed him to cuddle up when it really wasn't comfortable for me but inside I was uncomfortable and really didn't like it and I would be sitting there trying to be his version of 'affectionate' sometimes for hours whilst I was screaming inside "OMG get off me!" People pressed up on me makes me extremely claustrophobic. My daughter lounges all over me and to be honest I really don't like it and it is in no way a lack of love for her. And the cat tends to go sailing through the air pretty regularly and I love that furry little bugger as well!
I like that you recognise that he shows love more 'through service' as I think that's probably more my "love style' as well. Good on you for understanding differences and trying to make peace with them.
Is it a deal breaker for you? I agree that someone slapping you away when you try to hug or show affection is painful and unkind; i find that very painful but as to regular prolonged snuggling, is that something you need or is it just that you feel that is how love is expressed and if it isn't given you don't feel confident that you are loved? I ask because for a very long time I felt that i wasn't loved if there wasn't sexual intimacy and slowly over time I discovered that i didn't WANT the constant intimacy, I just believed it was "proof" that I was loved.
I really hope this doesn't sound as though I am minimising your feelings at all because I absolutely am not. I'm just honestly curious and also hoping that it's something you can work around because it sounds as though you've found someone you really enjoy being with right now and I hope this is something you can resolve!
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Andromeda, I've been reading this thread and reflecting on it before deciding what I'd like to say. I hope that this first part will not be offensive as I am speaking only from my own experience.
When I'm used to drama-filled relationships, lots of turmoil and passionate ups-and-downs, and then I'm in a relationship that seems "normal," aka drama-free and stable, I tend to start over analyzing and actually searching for something "wrong" in that relationship. I can't seem to accept that a relationship could actually be so...well...drama-free! It's like I purposely look for something to be wrong because that's just how relationships as I know them ARE. It just can't possibly be that smooth, right? I'm ashamed to admit I ended a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man because it didn't have the drama I didn't know I was craving. I had my reasons for ending it that made sense to me at the time - he wasn't willing to argue passionately with me, he must not be passionate ABOUT me or love me! He didn't pay enough attention to my hobbies so he must not even care about me! Stuff like that. Looking back I can see I was just creating drama where there wasn't any because it was all that I knew.
I am not saying you are doing the same but it's food for thought. I know it was a big realization for me.
To speak to to the specific issue of affection, I think I sound similar to your boyfriend. I am just not a touchy-feely person. I never have been. And it has nothing to do with the way I feel about someone. I can love someone with my whole heart and it still doesn't occur to me to be cuddling and touching and embracing and kissing all the time just because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't reject initiations of physical affection but I'm not focused on them. And I tend not to even realize it's something the other person is missing unless they point it out. My AH is very into physical affection and we've had a lot of discussions about it. He would equate my lack of physical affection to a lack of love and I have had to explain that's simply not the case. That's just not how I experience and show love, I do it in different ways. And that's OK. For me and for us. Only you can decide if it is OK for you, but try not to assume that his lack of physical affection equates to lack of love! I am a testament to the fact that it's not!
The more I think about it, the more i realize this is totally MY PROBLEM. He came over tonight for dinner after we both got off work and we only saw each other for about an hour and a half, yet he greets me with a kiss and a huge hug when he gets here and was totally affectionate while he was here. He even helped me cook dinner tonight and helped clean up the dishes. I'm the crazy one and I admit it, LOL! But, i am getting healthier every single day and I hope that I can apply all that I'm learning moving forward.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
Great Andromeda knowing how this program works is important. I hear that you are being Honest, Open and Willing and doing fine by keeping the focus on yourself, examining your motives, seeing reality with courage and acceptance and then working a 10th Step on the subject.
Andromeda - WOW @ the awareness you are now feeling/seeing. I see your program at work and it's very lovely to watch.
Keep on working it and more will be revealed! (((Hugs))) to you and best to you both as you explore your relationship/bond!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Thank you, Iamhere. I know I am falling in love with him and it scares me. I love what Betty shared about being Honest, Open, and Willing. I need to work on that in this relationship because I know I hold back emotionally to protect myself from being hurt and I actually think he does too. That's not going to work for much longer as we get closer and I need to think about how to apply that principle moving forward without coming across as needy or too over the top with my emotions. I am so used to suppressing things that I have no problem not feeling anything at all and that will be a problem if I want a real relationship now and in the future.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
All I got is one day at a time, one moment at a time. For me, there are days where I am all that and a slice of bread - self-esteem and self-worth - great. Then there are days were I'm at a different place and have to be gentle with me but mindful of program and where I want to be. So - when I begin to think too much or too deeply, I have to bring myself back to this moment on this day.
Worrying about your relationship with 'him' beyond right now is a bit more than you need to chew on. Stay present and enjoy what is. That's the only way I get to and through most days/things in my wacky world!
(((Hugs))) andromeda - you're just fine! Perhaps you are thinking too much....I do that often and it can be very paralyzing for me if I don't redirect myself to the present. Just a thought!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
HAHA, I have to laugh. I just got home and logged on, after spending most of the day with him and his 2 girls. It's hard not to look into the future. His 7 year old 'accidentally' called me mom when she wanted me to watch her do a cart wheel(she was way hyper and excited so everyone pretty much overlooked what she said, thank goodness). And, when I read a book to them on the couch, his 9 year old rested her head on my shoulder. The present is a beautiful thing but when there are kids involved, I get more scared and tend to think 'future' and trip on that for a while, LOL.
And, yes, I do think too much. WAY TOO MUCH!!!
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I can honestly say that two dependent children would be a show-stopper for me right now....just for today - BTDT - Been There & Done That! But - that's just me and where I am at. I am grateful that I am not in the dating world. I didn't do well when I was young and hot - I suspect it's a big challenge as we get a bit older. I was awkward then.....ha.ha.ha.
Hang in there - the answers will come with HP help/guidance!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I wasn't hesitant at first but now that I'm getting to know the girls, I 'feel' hesitant...if that makes sense. I helped with some homework last night and his 7 year old asked him to check the work and he says to her, "Did B check it for you? If she did, then I don't need to do it."
The relationship is changing and sometimes I think it's moving too fast, other times I think it's moving along just as God intends it to be.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
"But " I till revert to my old ways occasionally.
