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I am trying with all my might to use my program tools and conduct my relationships in new healthier ways - but my emotions are scared as heck.
One thing I've realized is that I typically have had a partner and friends who are not very sympathetic when things are hard. My parents were pretty dismissive of any problems, and I grew up thinking that was normal, so I accepted it from people close to me. "Don't be a crybaby!" "Oh for God's sake, like you've got problems!" "That's nothing, when I hurt my ankle I had to... [long story of misery that one-ups whatever my problem is]" "Gripe gripe gripe - just put up and shut up, for God's sake!"
My A would actually walk out of the room if I was upset about something. When I found out my mother's illness was terminal and began to cry, he started to yell at me. "You just don't have enough faith in God! If you had enough faith this wouldn't bother you!" Then he stormed out.
The guy after that, when I had a crippling shoulder injury, said to me, "I always consider it a sin to be unhappy. Do you want to commit a sin?"
So they put it in moral terms, like I'm violating God's will to be sad - when what was actually going on was that they didn't want to be troubled to pay attention to someone who wasn't them.
It took me a long time to put this together, because, like I say, I was so used to being dismissed that I thought it was inevitable.
So I've been somewhat involved with someone who's been showing some red flags. And now the same situation has come around again, but this time I see it for what it is.
I went through something traumatic and sad, involving someone's death, and he was flippant and dismissive. So I tried to be as healthy as I could be, and wrote a little note basically saying "I need to focus on getting myself back in order, so I don't have much to give right now - I'll be in touch again down the line."
Although I know I've done the best I could, and I'm taking care of myself, the whole thing is giving me panic attacks. The F.E.A.R. in my brain is screaming at me: "You've alienated the only person who will probably ever be on your side! You're much too demanding! You need to put up with what you can get! Now you'll be alone forever! You can't possibly find someone who will be supportive! Now he'll hate you! See what you've done! It's all your fault! You're an idiot! Plus you undoubtedly betrayed the fact that you were angry, and now you've just ruined everything and it's all! your! fault!"
I know my brain goes crazy, and yet the fear feels so real.
Any ESH on this? Any similar experiences? I'd be so grateful for your thoughts.
-- Edited by Mattie on Monday 27th of July 2015 02:57:41 PM
(((hugs))) Mattie That really sounds like my"ANTS __(automatic negative thoughts )in stereo. What I see in that interaction with your friend, is someone who is drawing a boundary with courtesy and respect, while placing principles above personalities. I can identify with the voices within because mine were nonstop when I first began dating and using this program effectively.
I do believe we grew up in the same family as mine were very dismissive of my feelings, but overboard about their own. I too learned to make my feelings unimportant and my needs minimal
Remembering that fear is "false evidence appearing real", and listing all my assets, helped me at times like this. I would counter my negative thoughts with my assets such as:I am an; attractive, intelligent, , compassionate, loving,, kind human being and any man would be privileged to be my partner. Believe it or not, I started to believe that and to act in that manner. I still remained humble but my self-esteem grew as a result. Yours will too
Learning new ways, practicing these principles in all our affairs, certainly, talks easy but walks hard. Trust HP and keep on keeping on. You are doing great.
I am one who battles with connecting my head and my heart. Often, my head tells me that I need to step away or take a break or take a different path, but it's my heart that makes me second guess myself. I too had reasonably dismissive parents - I was the youngest and the only girl so I was raised to be rough and tough and a tomboy. My mother sent me out to play with the boys always and often and then wondered why I got my dress all dirty/muddy.....it makes me laugh now but it was one of many things that affected me when I got to the program.
I struggled to be 'girlie', I never learned to cook, clean, etc. as my mother was a control OCD person who did all the housework so it would be perfect. She never talked to me about women things or sex or ..... so - I learned all that on my own and made a million plus mistakes.
When we have this disease or live with others who have the disease, it takes a huge toll on our self-worth and self-esteem. For all the tapes that play in my head about mistakes, regrets, not good enough, not lovable, not adequate, etc. the only solution that has ever brought me out of it was program. Whether I am reading literature, talking to my sponsor, working with another, etc. it's the only solution that has ever brought me any peace. And, I feel as if I tried just about everything else and some things would bring a temporary distraction from what was truly an internal issue, but only consistent program efforts bring about a longer term solution.
When I first became involved in the 12 Steps, I remember trying to bring the "rough and tough me to the tables". As I worked the steps, and realized I was human, those walls began to come down. My dad actually called me a crazy person once when I was upset over a death in the family - as it was so out of character for me/us. I'm still more guarded than many, but I've learned in the program that real emotions are very healing and it's healthier to feel them than to stuff them.
Trust your instincts - that's your HP speaking to you. You are worthy and you are lovable - don't settle for anything less than deserved or anyone who treats you less than a queen!!!
We're here for you - (((Hugs))).
-- Edited by Iamhere on Monday 27th of July 2015 04:23:49 PM
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Emotional support is not asking for too much, despite our programming a long time ago. I've found shutting down the little voices makes them louder, so I try self talk with affirmation and reason. You are on your own side, your friends here are in your corner validating your right to an emotionally safe and loving connection with significant others, and no, it isn't all your fault, for you are not the master of the universe and the three Cs apply. And you know why you feel like this, so acknowledge where it comes from giving it permission to ease up. This is how I work with my "ants", and something nourishing to eat, as forgetting to eat really ramps up my anxiety.
I completely relate to the expectation of being dismissed. Even just recently my mother said to me "So you're going through a divorce. So what!" and then proceeded to talk about her own divorce that happened 18 years ago, while mine is going on right now. It was just a reminder to me that there are some people that are capable of empathy and compassion and others that struggle with it. It is what it is. And yet she wonders why I don't call often....
I pray that you're successful in finding more supportive people in your life. You deserve it. We all do!
As for the note you wrote, I think that was a great display of you working your program. It's similar to the way I dealt with my mother after the above exchange, except you handled yours with more grace and aplomb than I did. Good for you!
Your feelings are real and deserve validation when you express them to people who are your friends. These people seem to find extreme feelings icky for lack of a better word. Hmmm who can't deal? They can't, not you. You sound emotionally available and capable of intimacy. To my understanding, true friendship definitely involves intimacy. You can pat yourself on the back for setting a boundary with that guy because "we teach people how to treat us." Yeah... definitely need to put down the hammer and get out of your head for a little fresh air ((((mattie))) You deserve the best you can give yourself. That especially includes the kind of people you invite into your world to stay. You've changed, grown while other people in your life have their protective "I don't do feelings"walls up. For me, those people can't be more than acquaintances these days because I can't fully share with them. It's disappointing when we open ourselves up and are vulnerable with people trust and are met with this kind of rejection of our feelings but it's a good lesson maybe of what emotionally unavailable people look like. Today, I couldn't accept a romantic relationship with someone like that. What if I got sick? I would want that person to be not just a friend but my best friend and help me if I needed them. You're right about the false evidence. There is an ample supply of men on the planet and people who could be potential friends. You aren't fussy, mattie. In my humble opinion, you've just outgrown this kind of response from people because of working the program.
I'm sorry for whatever pain you're experiencing concerning the death of someone close to you and I hope your shoulder is healed now. I'm glad you're part of our family of choice and keep coming back. You have a lot of wisdom to share. It's a gift to read your posts. TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Monday 27th of July 2015 06:02:46 PM
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Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
First I want to Say I'm Sorry for the Loss of Your Friend, I Know that can be a Tough Go, and Makes Life Harder to Focus on Us when Our Hearts are Crying for Our Loss... So Know you are In My Thoughts & Prayers
I to can relate to the Lack of Parental Support in my Upbringing... I was Often Dismissed before I Even got out of my Mouth what I was Trying to Say, and because Of This I Was Quite a "Quiet" Child... I didn't Feel Worthy of a Complaint no matter how much Pain I was In, and I Seeked Out people that was the Same way as My Family... They Could Dump Mountains of Crud on me and I Will Listen and Only Speak if Ask too...
Since i have Got to this Program I Have learned that I am Worth More then An Ear others that Have No Ear for Me... Tho I Still Listen to "Some" I Limit myself to whom I Hear it From, I don't allow the relationship to be One Sided, If I Don't Get what I Give, I Don't Give... and At times I thought that was Selfish but Honestly My Program Told me I was Worth Way More then I was Allowing my Life to be... I Wasn't the Door Mat, and I wasn't the Scapegoat... I was Worthy of Feelings, and I was Worthy of Love & Understanding from others as well...
I'm Glad your Here and I'm Glad you Brought this up because i know Good things will Come from this...
I have a Dear Sweet Lady in My Program that Challenged me One time because We had Talked of this Very thing, and she said that For ONE MONTH... She wanted me too... Get up Every Morning and Look in the Mirror... and Say... "I Am Worthy of Love & Loving, and I Am Worth it!" and Every Night Before bed look in that Same Mirror.. and Even If I didn't Believe it... Say... "I Love Me, And I Am All I Need!" and I Took the Challenge because I felt it to be a Chance to Show it wouldn't change a thing...lol Well I still to this day adore this Lady, and She still Challenges Me & My Program as Often as she can, and I have to say... She has been Right about ALL of it...
It Changed How I Looked at Myself, and Made me Realize I Deserved Way More than I Ever Gave myself Credit for... :) So If your Up for the Challenge & Want too... Give it a Try... it Sounds Easy Enough Right? :D
Yes. I do relate to that. People in AA have called upon me for support and some family members. I feel conflicted and like I should provide counsel to family and sponsor or help more folks in AA. But...my plate is FULL with work in a field where I already act in that capacity tons...
For relationships...I often accepted less than I deserved in the past. Not so much now. You can always find a new man Mattie...not that you need one persay. Finding men is not that hard. Finding the right one is a challenge.
I have experienced the same with my various partners and eventually came to a similar conclusion to you- that these people couldn't stand for me to be unwell or needy in any way when my attention was meant to be focused on them them them at all times. How could I look after them if I was going to be selfish and care about myself? You do deserve better, and I like the way you responded, keeping it about you and stating your truth. As to the itty bitty shitty committee, I like Jerry's simple "opposites" and they work well against that lot. For every nasty thought your peanut gallery throws at you, respond 3 times with the complete opposite... They will shut up eventually (((Mattie)))
-- Edited by missmeliss on Tuesday 28th of July 2015 09:03:23 AM
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Mattie, I don't know if you attend face to face meetings however this is where a sponsor helped me so much. I grew up not feeling heard .. what I find I do is I say the same thing over and over again until I am "heard" .. she caught the connection and as soon as she says I hear you and repeats back to me what I am saying or what I need to be validated about my anxiety subsides regarding the specific situation.
I have learned to validate myself so when I get into that spin I can say ok .. this is what is going on and yes that is a "normal" response to an unreasonable situation. I have shared before that I would express I would feel angry and be told you shouldn't feel angry about that situation. It always and I do mean always shocked me .. I had a therapist actually say to me don't cry when I found out that my XAH was having an affair .. needless to say I didn't go back to her. LOL!
It is important to feel the feelings and realize they are not facts .. it is ok to feel something and not act on it. It is ok to say I feel helpless and victimized in a situation. The difference is I know I am not helpless and I know I am not a victim.
It helped me to do some work with my inner child, I'm also a firm believer in trauma work because these are things that train the brain that what I see is not what I've seen and that is not healthy. It is one of the biggest reasons I get so upset with my XAH when he tells the kids they didn't see or hear what they saw and heard .. LOL .. umm nOOOOO .. yes they did see the empties and YES .. they heard you talking to your current girlfriend.
I just encourage you to find someone who can verbally validate you and verbally say yes .. this is not normal .. yes ... it is a healthy response to an unreasonable situation and no that is not ok for a parent to react and invalidate what you are feeling. From there I was able to self soothe myself .. not with excuses and not with victim mentality .. this process taught me that I can't rewrite the past .. I can rewrite my responses .. don't know if any of my ramblings make sense ... I have come a long way to the point when my mom tells me I don't feel something I stop her and say you don't know how I feel and yes .. I do feel this way they are my feelings not yours.
Hugs S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Thank you all for your comments, which are so helpful and supportive. I'm so unpracticed at setting these boundaries that it's hard to tell when I'm being reasonable. (I also have to confess that I crafted my reply with the generous help of someone from our MIP board - I won't out her but she is awesome!)
Basically he responded by saying "Just because I don't say anything about it doesn't mean I don't care." In the past this would have made me feel guilty about feeling bad that he refused to talk about it. But I had a relevation: I thought, what I need in a partner is someone who both cares and can talk about it. His response was all about how I shouldn't blame him for not caring. There still wasn't any direct acknowledgement of what I've been through, not even anything like "That must have been hard, I'm so sorry." It was still all about him and his blamelessness! When just two or three sentences about my situation would have done the trick. And I see that this is a pattern. So I acknowledge his limitations and the fact that he undoubtedly cares up to his level of capacity - it's just that I need someone with a greater capacity.
This is really freeing. Scary, but freeing.
I see how in the past I've accepted emotionally crippled partners because I didn't really believe there was anyone out there with healthier ways. Now I'm thinking that even if I end up "alone," it's better than being with someone who can't turn his attention off himself for a moment. It leaves me open to make connections with healthier people, and not to have to fight off the feelings of worthlessness and anger at being disregarded.
Mattie I relate to your post so much. This is my first post ever. I have been married to an A for 15 years. Divorced from each other, remarried but still live in our own homes. I did not think I could live without him so is the reason we remarried. I just discovered Last weekend the issue is the unemotional way he is to my feelings. He leaves when I need to talk about anything serious. He calls it "having to defend himself". Our relationship is a real mess. He actually hangs up on me if I call him after he leaves, (his way of punishing me).I just started reading this post and a light bulb went off in my head. He's controlling and hurtful. Now I'm a mess. I do believe being alone takes time to get used to but I thinking on trying it. Before we split our homes up he would go to bed and if I went to the bedroom to beg him to talk he got very abusive. Hats off to you for getting this far with your progress.
TrisgaG
Welcome to MIP TrishaG! So glad you found us and so glad that you posted!
Keep coming back and know you're not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I don't need someone that always empathizes with the specific stressors I have. I do require someone that is affectionate, thoughtful, sweet, loving, and expressive. When those things are there (as in my current relationship), I usually have far less need to explain stress or hardship. Just being with my husband is relaxing and stress relieving.
Well, just to argue with Mark's point a little bit, or maybe to clarify. What happened was that I was trying to help a situation with a sick person who is in the same city (abroad, not in the US) that I am in. I knew this person and also the person's relative back in the US who was worried about the sick person. To make a long story short, things went very wrong and the sick person died. None of us had any idea he was sick enough to be at risk of death. This all unfolded over the course of several hours. It was very shocking and horrifying to me. I kept replaying it in my mind: Did I do the right thing? Should I have acted more forcefully? Truth to tell, it probably wouldn't have mattered, but it was very troubling to me. So this guy I have been involved with is also back in the US. In my daily email I said what had happened and how shocked and sad I was. He replied "I have nothing to say about that," and went on to tell me at length about how he had had a joky success at a minor charity event. What he later said was that I "should have known" he was sympathetic. But I was thinking about how I was still so disturbed about this death, and how I was going to have to fake being interested in this charity event, and all of a sudden I thought: Wait a minute, why do I have to give a performance like I care about this charity event? He wasn't giving a performance that he pretended to care about what was upsetting me! So I thought, You know, this correspondence is just dragging me down right now; I don't have anything to give right now. It's like the old saying about how we have something in common: we're both interested in him. Except I'm less interested any more when it's not a two-way street.
So I get that the other person doesn't have to express interest in every little detail of one's life. But when you're troubled by something, ignoring it sends a signal - that's my interpretation. The signal is "There's not room for your emotions in this relationship." It's like being given the cold shoulder, but when you call them on it, they say, "You should have just known I'm sympathetic without my having to express it in any way." Gosh, if I wanted sympathy without any sign of sympathy, I could just buy a block of wood and set it up in a corner, no?
Mattie I hear you. Thanks for the explanation. I have experienced similar disconnects and it's very troubling. In fact my family of origin, does this repeatedly, and that is why I learned not to share any of my vulnerability or sadness with them---Of course they are family of origin and I choose to continue to interact with them as best I acn.
I know that prior to program I never thought I was wotrthyy of any support and that I should be able to handle all my issues with out anyone. When my husband responded in the fashion that you described, I would let go of my pain and be supportive of him. Denial flourished -- How destructive that was!!!.
Al-Anon has taught me to validate myself and not make myself invisible. I am glad to see that you have learned that lesson as well.
Mattie you already know what my take on this is and I have to commend you for bringing it to the boards and for sharing. We all learn from each other and can see parts of our stories in other people's stories, as well.
I remember writing down a list of what my NEEDS would be in a romantic relationship and I thought some of it was silly and one of the things was that I find someone who can express sympathy and also practice empathy.
Your friend basically thought you were clairvoyant and could read his mind and just KNOW that he was sympathetic. I am going to ask you a question for a different perspective: what if you had given that information to that person in a real life scenario? Do you think they would have reacted differently? Is this person's expressions in person the same as it is in written word? I only ask so that you can start thinking about those needs. You travel often and need to communicate via the written word so that could possibly be a NEED based situation. Think about all of it and spend some time journaling if you can.
I know you are afraid that you will lose this person or that you will end up alone. But, I know one thing right now: I have to take myself with my from one relationship to the next and I can't get away from ME. So, working on program, journaling, talking to my sponsor A LOT, and coming to these message boards help me figure out just what I need to do to gain some ground under me so that I can be healthy in a relationship someday.
I just got home from work and my brain is fried so I don't know if this made any sense, but I will be thinking of you and praying for you tonight! HUGS
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
as mine were very dismissive of my feelings, but overboard about their own. I too learned to make my feelings unimportant and my needs minimal
