The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Please forgive me, everyone. Trying not to vent too much but I can't take it anymore. My partner is one year and two months sober and I am very proud of him and his heartfelt fight for sobriety. We love each other very much despite the bumps in our road (right now they feel pretty huge) but I believe we have a lot to teach to and learn from each other. I have been supportive of his journey in every way I can think of, after six years of hell watching him commit virtual suicide in front of me, plus two fun emergency trips to the hospital and seeing him through rehab.
Unfortunately right now he is the classic post-AA newly-recovered saint - from everything I have seen and heard from others - sanctimonious, self-centered, puritanical, very demanding of praise and attention, still mostly entranced by "The Program" and spouting its dogma, and horribly judgmental of anyone and anything outside of it. I can't do anything right; I am not exactly like him, and because our habits are not identical, therefore everything from the way I wash the dishes to how I fold the towels and when I like to go to bed is now wrong, wrong, wrong. Also I'm "angry" and "bitter" and selfish. And no amount of validation or thanks I give him is ever enough. He's like a 62-year-old two-year-old.
I'm not banging AA when it does help people. When it does, great. I just don't think it's for everyone. For him, maybe it did save him, simply because he's retired and had nothing else to do but go to three meetings a day and hang out with other members - but from my POV it's been sometimes an obsession and a crutch, along with the four pots of coffee and the pack of cigarettes a day he's still smoking. But of course he can criticize and pick at me on issues of time management and domestic comfort; not only that, I drink wine, so obviously in his expert opinion I am a desperate alcoholic headed for the grave, as are any of my friends who would dare to imbibe alcohol. Are you kidding me? Living with him it's amazing I'm not in the gutter with a bottle of vodka; I only have so much patience.
I've drastically reduced any type of social life along with his journey; rarely entertain or have friends over anymore; almost never go out or do anything that would threaten his sobriety. Not that he notices.
Let's add the issue no one seems to want to talk about: now that he's sober we now have almost no sex life. His new devotion to eating at very strict times, meditating twice a day, having to go to bed and get up at a certain hour - all this equals almost zero physical intimacy unless I initiate it. And if we don't, even though I'm still working variable hours and am a natural night owl, it's somehow still my fault because I'm not being sweet and nice and supportive enough of his needs. I'm going out of my mind. I live in a fricking monastery run by a cross between Cotton Mather and Oliver Cromwell.
I really am not trying to bang AA. For those whom it helps, I say good for them, congratulations on your success, and blessed be. To be honest the meetings I've been to were horrible - people crying about their problems, chain-smoking and quaffing coffee, all obviously sober but seemingly really unhappy. I know not all meetings are like that, but that's what I saw. I asked my partner about it, because when he was starting to cut down on meetings he cited the same things that were making the meetings non-productive for him: people ranting uncontrollably about their own issues, guys picking up girls with their sob stories because they wanted to get laid, people not respectful of the speaker, people who weren't there for the right reasons.
I asked him why the members were there if they had stopped drinking but hadn't dealt with the root issues that were making them drink in the first place. What was AA doing about that, how was it helping. What did the AA script have to say about that beyond surrender, abrogation of personal responsibility, and lifelong helplessness. He couldn't answer me.
I'm sure many will have some strong words to say about what I just wrote. Again, meaning no disrespect to AA when it succeeds. I'm just in a disillusioned space with its effects myself. Thanks for reading.
Hello there sounds horrendous for you at the moment.
the AA program is one of progression not perfection but sometimes it will seem like forever to get anywhere near progress.
i am an Alanon member and also a sober 21 years AA member.
the things you are describing have only been shown fully to me since joining Alanon re my sons drinking.
it must be so frustrating to watch someone you love stop drinking but not change for the better. We call this in AA being a "dry drunk"
the AA steps are usually done with the help of a good guide or sponsor and this person helps u to see yourself as u are warts and all.
If your hubby is doing his own thing he's finding what's called in AA as " an easier softer way" which is bound to effect badly the ones around u who love u.
your best plan would be to join a good face to face Alanon meeting and start doing the steps yourself and u will soon see what is supposed to occur because it will happen to you if u give yourself to this simple program.
at least u will see it for yourself and perhaps even make a good friend or two.
i hope u will find this useful ....would love to hear what u do next.
Thank you Quakeroat for your experience and advice. I know I'm being impatient but it does seem like forever.
Will keep y'all posted. I just can't stand the constant criticism and nitpicking. To be honest I've had the steps crammed down my throat so much over the past year by him that I just don't know if that would work for me. I wouldn't mind communing with fellow al-anon folks, but I have my own daily system of prayer, meditation, and search for guidance, and I just don't feel the need to change it for a different system. He persists in acting as if he needs to "convert" me since obviously he is morally superior now he is sober (whatever!!!!)
I should mention that his mother was a huge AA supporter and he grew up as a young person being towed along to meetings, even though he was later a youthful drug dealer, crashed cars and so forth, did crazy stuff, luckily didn't get killed, arrested, or kill anyone else. So this whole moral tidal wave really makes me laugh, but because of the way his mind works he doesn't get the joke (irony and sarcasm are lost on him).
I'm so sorry. You've invested a lot in your A and in waiting for him to be a good partner, and to see him turn into a sober but crummy partner sounds just infuriating.
I can understand how frustrated you are at AA, especially if your A is spouting slogans and acting as if he has the Secret To Life Itself.
It sounds to me as if he's only working the program halfway. He's got the sobriety, but not the humility and self-awareness. Unfortunately the program can offer the path, but it can't force anyone to walk all the way down it.
If anyone in the picture is deficient, I'd submit that it's not AA, it's the person working (or not working) the program.
Sad to say, sometimes sobriety turns drunken asshats into sober asshats. When you remove the alcohol, you don't always remove all the personality.
The question is: is he midway on the journey, or is he who he is? Because if it's really not going to get any better, that's something to be aware of when you make decisions about the future. You're in the best position to get a feel for whether he's coming around to being a better partner, however slowly, or whether this is it.
I hope above all you'll take good care of yourself. This sounds very infuriating and stressful.
Thanks Mattie - you made me laugh ;) - I agree: sober asshats (bwahahaha!) Heeheee. I needed that.
And of course I love the bloody idiot, which of course just leaves us all in the flippin' ditch!
I think it is early enough on his journey that he may be just swimming midway in a low tide. But if the twisted logic (which he seems to have carried over from his drinking days) and reverse emotional blackmail continue, I will have to call him on it. I am not a doormat and I don't deserve to be treated like one because I am my own person. I agree with you it's not AA. It's his work (or non-work) with the program that is the issue. From what I've read here there is a lot of discontent with those loved ones who are NOT doing the real work but claim they are "with the Program" and want to basically stay the same but claim the benefits of change.
Human nature, of course, but hey people.....as a motivational speaker I heard many years ago said - "Everyone loves honesty... as long as it's not honest".
I really appreciate your support and sympathy! As I am now posting at 4:30 AM I'm sure y'all can see I didn't have a restful night. Tchah! Onward and upward ;)
I do believe that attending alanon face to face meetings will open up a new door of freedom for you It is here that I learned how to keep the focus on myself, validate my thoughts and needs, live one day at a time trusting HP and remove the destructive tools of blame ,judgement self pity and fear from my tool box. Living with the disease is difficult and each of us benefit from a program of recovery in order to regain our self esteem and self worth . Keep coming back You are worth it
PS Today's reading in our" One day at a time "meditation may be helpful http://alanon.activeboard.com/t60521228/odat-7-10/
Oy....Hang in there. Your husband sounds like a typical 1 year sober AA minion. I was the same way at 1 year sober. I lived in an AA bubble and I had to in order to stay sober and for it all to stick. During year 2 is when we typically start focusing on emotional sobriety. Everyone is a bit different. Your husband may think he has all the answers, but really he is just starting out. I can't guarantee that he won't stay stagnated at this point in sobriety, but most folks to settle into a more well rounded lifestyle within 3 years or so.
Herbalist going to ftf mtgs will save your sanity!
Alanon is about you not him. I joined when i was
At rock bottom and there was one way and that
Was up.
My xah has been going to AA since 2011. He did not
get better but much Worse and he has been dry for
30 years. He attends 2-3 mtgs a week. Does not
Have a sponsor or do the steps. He likes the soft
Approach in other words not looking at himself
Or being honest. He loves helping others.
Take care of yourself that is all you can do. I am
Now divorced living in my own apt after 30 years.
Going to aa gave my xah the courage to end the
Marriage and pursue new opportunities.
They are who they are underneath wether we like
It or not. The disease progresses too. Take care
Of you. Alanon gave me "me back " with lots of
Loving support.
I agree with Pinkchip - he sounds as if his recovery is in progress. Just like Al-Anon, the As stress progress, not perfection. There are no guarantees that a person in recovery will be what we want/need them to be.....they are a miracle in progress, just as we are.
I too think you can benefit from Al-Anon....my recovery has taught me how to love me and accept what is going on around me with a bit of grace and dignity. No matter what my A(s) are doing, I get to choose each day how I want to live - with peace and serenity or caught up in the crazy. I no longer spend my time watching to see how they act, what they do, etc. I no longer respond to the sarcasm, criticism, etc.
What's been the most profound is as I've become calmer, more accepting and more peaceful, so are they. When I don't engage, any drama stops much faster. When I keep the focus on me and accept them as they are, my life is so much better.
I hope you find face-to-face meetings and begin your own recovery. Keep coming back - the program works when we work it and you are worth it!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I will take your advice and try to find a ftf meeting nearby. It really strengthens me to hear from you all that this is a typical one-year state. I guess it's been such a journey (and we were making such a big deal of his one-year anniversary) that subconsciously I was probably expecting everything to be more rainbows and less work as he achieved that milestone, which of course is silly.
I agree with you about not engaging - that's my character problem to work on. I am strong-willed and outspoken and I simply hate letting him always do and run everything as he likes when I don't agree or feel unheard; it makes me feel like a doormat. Then to be basically told I'm a selfish and inconsiderate whiner on top of that pushes the big red nuclear-warhead button. Then the next day it's all apologies and "he's still working on himself". Fine. Could you not do that work so that the person who supports you the most wants to break a chair over your head, and then maybe one over my own just to even it all out?? (it's a joke, you can laugh). At least I still have my sense of humor ;) Thank you again for your shared wisdom!
Living with alcoholism wether wet or dry is difficult especially
If they are not actively working on growing or changing in a
Program such as AA. My xah blamed me for all his problems
After he started attending.
The thinking when two are in recovery is for both to work on
Yourselves then when you are both healthy enough then work
on The relationship.
This is where alanon tools come in handy. Good and healthy
Boundaries to protect you and your sanity. There are tons of
Them to learn at meetings. Go with an open mind and listen,
Learn and absorb.
Thats why the wisdom to keep the focus on you. You can
Not get someone else to change to how you want. You can
Only change you.
If and when you start ftf mtgs they are about you and your
Recovery it is your personal recovery not his. He should have
His own male sponsor that he goes to with his problems and
concerns For himself. Recovery is very personal journey.
I have to reply with this...early on I was told that if there was anything that would send an alcoholic back out again (back out drinking) it would be the unrecovered spouse. I thought that was bs and so put it out of my mind and then one night my alcoholic/addict wife came home from a meeting and asked me "do you think I am an alcoholic" and I answer from my own egotism..."No"....and she when back out on another 5 year run and we lost everything we hadn't already lost up until that time...the miracle was that I got into Al-Anon and got to save my life and sanity. I stopped holding her and her disease for the sickness in my life considering I learned I had other choices. Will be listening with the rest of the MIP family on how it works for you. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
The one year mark was horrendous from my point of view as well. All the same behaviour but no booze to blame any more! I must admit that part of that was that my own feelings were coming to the surface and I was spitting angry! That is not to say that my husband wasn't being a creep - he was, but I do remember feeling bad about putting myself down when I didn't joyfully deliver on the 'great job darling!' congratulations journey. My own resentments were getting in the way, and they were real and in a way justified. I had to (still am) deal with them and start learning to put them down (they are my armour and I believe that is natural and in a way quite sensible, given the journey, but they are not fair or applicable for today, and today is what matters now. It ain't easy though!
During the first year I had expectations that my husband would finally be appreciative and grateful that I stood by him. Oh how silly can I be?!!!! I would say approaching the 18 month mark it started to get a bit better and he occasionally would say something positive that would surprise me. We still have a way to go, and some of the arms length stuff going on is down to me as well - it just takes time, for both of us, unfortunately. I find that firmly keeping my focus on my life helps and accepting that for a while I am standing on my own two feet without a knight on a white charger coming to my rescue has actually been a positive and liberating learning curve for me.
Oh - and it helped me when I read somewhere that it is difficult to be a lover and a carer/nursemaid at the same time. So I stopped being a nursemaid. I married a lively, entertaining, capable, challenging person. I had the hots for that person. Then alcohol got in the way. And now, as you say, living with a martyr is a bit of a darn contrast - not really my type! But maybe we can learn to get our kicks in different ways. Another learning curve coming my way I guess!
With regards to putdowns from a demanding two year old attention seeker are concern, I decided that it takes two to tango and whereas when my husband was drinking I learnt not to engage I now value my own self respect - which means that sometimes I do respond by simply saying that I don't agree. But that is not as necessary any more since I figured that if someone, anyone, and especially my husband, wants to put me down (perhaps because of their own lack of self esteem?) then they can go do it elsewhere. I am just not interested any more. I haven't discussed this thought process with my husband, I don't think there is any need, just holding onto that thought has changed me enough that I am no longer in a victim role, and it shows!! I hope that makes sense! By the way, when my husband did put me down or insulted me or whatever I would pledge myself an enjoyable experience of equal and opposite magnitude - I can remember even smiling to myself once when he was being a bit rude, thinking 'oh yes, I'm going to have some lovely fun because of this!'
These are just a few of the upside down thinking things that have helped me in this topsy turvy world of alcoholism. I love meditation as well, and now yoga too.
Your post, and the replies you've had, have helped me. Thank you for sharing.
I read your post thinking "pinkchip, pinkchip, pinkchip" the whole way. He's always so brutally frank about his journey, and not shy about telling it like it is when it comes to putting up with someone early in recovery! And all the other double winners here too! It's great hearing how they had to go through a transition period and came out such great people on the other side. I've never had the pleasure because my A is still 100% in denial, and when I read these stories, sometimes I selfishly think that it would be better for me just to keep working on my side and hope she stays in denial! I've heard 2 years as a benchmark for other addictions too as the period it takes to truly restore clear thinking. So I have a long time to go myself! I'm just getting started and I wasn't too clear thinking before I got involved with my A!
As far as programs, you can lead a horse to water but you can't...wait...maybe that isn't the best analogy. I'm not a "program" person either. I mean, who want's to be "programmed"? For me Al-Anon is all about the kindness and understanding that these people are willing to share and the support I feel from knowing that I'm not alone. As far as steps...I know the box step, the foxtrot, the tango, the watusi...I'm sure I could get to 12. But the thing is, the more time I spend around these people, the more I want to learn their steps because regardless of what my A might be doing, these people seem to know something I don't, and they are willing to share.
"Take what you want, and leave the rest." The programs are simply an opportunity. A structured, documented, supported, long-standing, freely-available, widely-published, practiced, understood, dissected, tried-and-true, tested and yes - proven - opportunity, but only an opportunity none-the-less. Now, "proven" does not mean "100%" for everybody, but it means "proven to work for many, many people" who can learn to listen through the jargon and catch-phrases that are necessary to package it for consumption and get to the meaning behind them. I bristled at the very thought of a 12-step program - until I spent some time here. Now I'm learning a new dance!
You sound like me and many others here. The first Al-Anon dance is called the "How do I get rid of living my life with burning resentment that keeps piling up and piling up until I'm going to do something that everyone reads about in the paper" dance. It's a complicated dance, but you'll look really cool doing it.
Wow everyone, thank you for putting a smile back on my face today. I left for work feeling drained, numb, and temporarily defeated, and your shares of how the "timeline" has worked out for you all have been truly helpful. A gentle reminder for me to not be so impatient for the sun to suddenly burst through the clouds. I know this isn't the last dark day we'll have but your experiences have given me perspective and new goals. Not to mention not breaking chairs over anyone's head, including mine (joke:)
Things were better this afternoon when I got home. He had calmed down after all his hysterical fight-picking fracas and critical attacks that drove me into hair-pulling teeth-gritting screaming frustration and said, "what on earth are you going to do with me?" I said, "I'm just gonna keep loving you." And I do, but by god I'm gonna go elsewhere and show myself some love when I need to and stop feeling as if it's selfish. I literally bellowed at him that I was incredibly happy I had finally connected with support people who had actually helped me remember that I'm not crazy, I'm not terminally angry, I'm not self-centered to want sanity in my life, and that his "work on himself" isn't my 24/7 second job. I also told him flat out that his behaviors are about 90% the way he was when he was drinking, it's just now the beer has been removed. That hit home. Especially the fact that I deliberately used "program-speak" about physical vs. emotional sobriety. Hah.
He never really connected with his sponsor, for those of you who have asked....he is not someone who has friends, period, and that I think is part of why he tends to pickle in his own brine. I have a fantastic support system and the best friends in the world, and sometimes I think that puzzles him; he just can't figure out how you get all these important people in your life. Yikes, I'd be an axe murderer by now if I didn't!!
The journey continues. I'll keep all you kind people posted and I thank you again, very much, for your lifeline on a hard day.
your honesty is doing me good.." I would like to thank you and say "that's how it works" we are specialist in our field and that's why we need each other. If you love him please give him yet another chance and trust your God for the outcome
It takes 2 years for the brain to recover fully.... I am glad you have turned to Alanon, because it helps to not dwell on what the alcoholic is trying to sell you today.
I was the supportive wife for 25 years of a an Alcoholic that maybe in those 25 years stopped for a year...he had buddies from AA that came and got him from sober living to party
one nite. He was off drinking again, until the day he died, ...about a year later from that binge. Do I blame AA or his friends, somewhat, but it doesn't help to build a mountain
of evidence against AA, what purpose would it serve. Don't blame an organization, that would not do your substance abusing husband any help, it takes the responsibility off
of him, when he needs to recognize it. Be grateful he is not drinking, and alive...
Meantime, it would do you a world of good to start your own recovery and not worry so much about him. In Alanon we learn the art of detachment with love. A handy little
tool that saved my life.
So Alanon has a lot to offer you, tools, solutions, higher power and if that's not enough, you can come to this board and vent and cry and tell us your inner most fears, we have
all been there. Please keep coming back, for your own serenity...
Thank you Bettina and everyone! I do appreciate the new tools in my toolbox.
I am an aggressive and precise thinker (former project manager; yikes old training dies hard) and therefore tend to be immediately reactive to hyperbole, twisted logic, poor listening skills, drama, and thoughtless puritanism. Which is what I have a big hot bowl of right now. Excuse me, I think I don't want any more spoonfuls. As a matter of fact I some days I want to throw the spoon and then run away to join the circus! ;)
But I do love him and he continues to work and improve in small ways, which is all that matters. He can have all the chances he needs as long as he isn't destroying me in the process, because I've been through that before emotionally and refuse to stand for it again no matter how valid it is for the other party. And I don't blame AA, he is just still working on taking what he needs and leaving the rest behind as AlmostThere said. As I am working on not engaging in his drama, yet somehow still communicating support, which really is like putting a toddler in a timeout.
And I apologize if sound whiny. Milkwood pointed out the nursemaid/caretaker issue and that is a big thing. One of several job-hats I wear is therapeutic massage and energy work with cancer patients, elders, people in hospice, and just plain old sore people. I'm also an adult-education teacher at night. I love it, am lucky that he has supported me completely in establishing my own massage practice, but he still has no concept that some days - not all, but many - I will come home with nothing left, not even fumes. I'm touched-out, I'm empathied-out, I'm caretaker-ed-out, AND I'm hungry and my feet hurt. But he's retired and doesn't need to leave the house, doesn't understand I don't want to talk, I CAN'T talk anymore, I've interacted with twenty or more needy people today. I just want to collapse. And then I get yelled at for some triviality like "You use too much dish liquid and you need to change" and my brain goes into nuclear spasms.
When I'm rested, it's really hysterically funny as an example of what humans do to each other. Just not at 11pm with sore feet. (Y'all get big points for laughing at my sarcasm by the way ;)
Well now that was a bit of my vent! Sorry Bettina you encouraged me. You, and so many others here, have been though so much worse. I'm not complaining, just venting to people who seem way more patient than I am right now ;) Thank you again and be well!
Smiling in recognition of all that you say Herbalist!
I once worked out that I had gone for four years without having one single day to myself to do just as I pleased - yikes! I've sometimes thought that I would fall head over heels in love with someone who, when I got home, just once in a while greeted me with tender loving care - and yet I have never asked for it - perhaps because I don't yet trust my husband to deliver and I'm scared of being disappointed. So there's an idea to consider - learning to ask for what I need without expectation!
What amazing work you do with the therapeutic massage - it must make a wonderful difference to so many lives and I'm not surprised you love it.
im so glad u contacted us on here herbalist I have learned so much from your straight forward very expressive truths.
the way you coin a phrase you could write a good book on " how to survive living with a recovering alcoholic"
i remember some people in my early days told me I had "lost my sense of fun" had become "boring" and do u know of course I thought it was they who were in the wrong. They seemed like they weren't glad for me to be free from addiction, but looking back who would be when I was putting on aa tapes with " inspirational speakers" and if they didn't get the point I would wind it back to let them hear it again. All cringeworthy stuff now to think back on but I felt so "saved" and special it was a good job I had no partner for 13 years.
having said all that without the spiritual experience I encountered I feel I would have been in the futile state I was in forever more. I started to believe big things could happen and they did. Soon all family and friends forgot how obsessive I was in the beginning and started to act as if it never happened. When it came to do,s which included people drinking alcohol though they remembered not to offer me any lol. Today I feel respected by my family and partner.
I will pray that one day quite soon your loved one will watch and feel those pennies drop, keep on being pretty much who u are I wouldnt change a thing about u but just keep an eye on the ones that have trod this path before u.
Yee ha thank you Q-oat for my daily dose of love and wisdom. Milkwood, we should have a tally board, I don't think I've had a day off to do as I wanted for the same time as you (haha). I think it is almost criminal that we are not allowed to DEMAND ACTION somehow about the toll that takes on your psyche, your spirit, and your ability to support the loved one in recovery. Some days it just feels like you have your head in a noose.
We all do need to train ourselves in asking for what we need. It is not easy and I am still not always very good with it.
Unfortunately, every addiction is an isolator, and so I have found with him. I have to frantically crawl out of the quicksand to my support people when I can't take it anymore with him, and they are always there for me - for which I give thanks every day. But every day, outside of meeting acquaintances, I am all he has, and I find it a queasy burden. Sometimes coming home feels like taking the ferry back to the desert island of recovery on which my house is right now - all my friends and family are still at the clambake on the other shore. It's uncomfortably similar to the knot in my stomach I had coming home when he was drinking, in fact it's the same. Which partner will I find tonight? Jekyll or Hyde? The normal sociable one or the supercritical, puritanical, nitpicking recovery-nazi?
There are days when I want to shout, "WHO PEED IN YOUR CORNFLAKES THIS MORNING, FOR GODS SAKE! LIGHTEN UP!" At the point I am ready to do this, however, it usually him that is calmly pronouncing that I am angry and resentful (and also used too much dish liquid and burnt the toast). I talk to myself a lot on the way to work after this, in case you're wondering. I really don't care what other drivers think of me, it's my therapy, and if I want to open all the windows and scream I do just that (even in winter ;)
I have found that having the courage to validate myself and my needs by saying what I mean without saying it mean, went along way in helping me to deal with the insanity of this disease.
I did reach the point where my serenity was more important than sacrificing myself on the altar of pettiness and so I used the serenity prayer and the slogans in order to stay sane and detach when I wanted to REACT and explode. It was amazing how well that worked.
Just been thinking about our nice exchange Herbalist and smiling at the recognition that we can do something about some of the things that drain us! Finding the recuperative space to take care of myself so that I can do what I love, and carry on giving is so important to me and has been a huge learning curve. We are allowed!!!
