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Hey guys. I popped in a few weeks ago or more, and then have been kind of MIA -- still feel kind of weird about talking about this stuff. But, since then I have left to stay at my dad's. My husband has been "dry" and talking about how he may drink in the future -- of course, at this point, he's trying to pull off, "it won't get out of hand... I won't do it at home" etc. We've been down that road before. He claims that was all "different". He has been referring to his drinking as "ups and downs" which makes me want to SCREAM because ups and downs makes it sound like "no big deal...just some ups and downs" -- while I have had to endure long nights crying myself to sleep, holding my breath wondering how is mood/temper will be from one minute to the next when he's drinking, etc. I've had to deal with name calling, lying, and all the crap that comes along with living with an alcoholic. But apparently they were just "ups and downs" according to him.
When I left, I had it in my head that I was just going to do my own thing and not worry about whether he was still thinking about drinking or not. Because, I know by now that even if he comes around and changes his tune, it doesn't last. He only reassures to prevent me from actually ending things, and doesn't mean a cent of it.
So obviously, I am well aware of the reality of the situation...but right now I'm REALLY struggling between *knowing* and *accepting*. I know that my husband will not choose our relationship over alcohol -- or at least the idea of it since he's dry right now. But I'm having a hard time accepting it. I keep hoping it will change. Because I know that it not changing means I can't continue the relationship.
I made the mistake of talking with him (frequently) on the phone, and letting myself get suckered into the *hope*. That was shattered again today when he once again talked about occasions in which he may drink.
I don't know -- maybe to some people here I might sound like my situation isn't that bad or something, because I know he could be actively drinking right now and things could be a lot worse. But I know from past experiences with him, and from dealing with an Alcoholic mother as well -- that his talking and thinking about it only means that it's going to GET that bad again. And frankly, I just don't even want to go through that again, and be there when it happens.
So while it might sound like I have it all "figured out" -- it's really difficult for me to actually APPLY and adhere to the things that I know... and it's even more difficult to accept these things. Perhaps, in a way I have allowed HIS denial and lack of acceptance to affect my own ability to do so... if that makes sense.
I'm definitely going through the feelings of feeling crazy and like it's "all in my head" or something.
I know I could be going about things that would be much more effective for myself and well-being... but it's been a struggle to actually follow through and stick to it. :/
Just needed to vent...
-- Edited by rt on Thursday 30th of April 2015 12:51:17 PM
Hi RT, I too struggled with knowing the right answer and the actual accepting and acting on the information.
I do believe that my bottom arrived when I knew, without a doubt that I had to leave my marriage (before I killed him) and could not bring myself to walk out the door. Sharing at Al-Anon face-to-face meetings, receiving the support from others who understood as no one else could, gave me the courage to keep showing up for myself without taking any action. Breaking the isolation caused by the disease, I received enough breathing room,in order to be able to make a decision, as to the next right action and then carry it out.
Face-to-face meetings saved my life and my sanity. I took the action that I felt guided to do, the one that I thought would ruin my life forever, and lo and behold everything turned around for the better.
Living with the disease of alcoholism is not easy and although we do appear to know all the answers. Sharing the journey with others is extremely important. Please keep coming back and know you're not alone and there is hope.
It is never a matter of choosing alcohol over you. The alcoholic typically just does not see the reasoning why it has to be one or the other. The disease tells them the problem just that you over react to their drinking. The disease is there...He can't not choose it. He is going to be an alcoholic still even if he's in recovery and abstinent. That is the only think in your post that I see as an interpretation that only hurts you. He is not consciously choosing alcohol over you.
Aside from that, your perceptions seem spot on. You seem to be working step one at a deeper level which is that you really have zero control over his drinking and are ready to admit powerlessness to the degree now that you understand he may never get into recovery. That is difficult to accept. Be gentle with yourself.
I have struggled too with feeling like my wife is choosing her drinking over me. And, even though I know she is not, because she cannot control her disease, it sure doesn't FEEL that way a lot of the time.
MIP and face to face meetings have really helped me stay sane, and I cannot imagine my life without them now.
__________________
Skorpi
If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. - Lao Tzu
When alcoholism is raging at our house, it is hard not to feel the AH is choosing to drink over a relationship with me. But I do realize now that this is the disease not the man. My AH loves me and wants to have a right relationship with me, but his disease wants only to be fed. Once I start to look at it clearer, through a more detached lens, I see that all that thinking is doing is keeping ME in the grips of the disease as well.
So I take a walk. Or go to a meeting. Or read the literature until I feel righter. Not perfect, by any means, but sane-ER!!
__________________
Bethany
"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln
I get what you're saying... but there is still SOME choice in the matter. He has the choice to refrain from drinking, seek help, and do everything within his power to cope with it and better himself as a person. While he has not had a drink (yet), he hasn't sought help for it, and he doesn't give a rat's @$$ about holding himself accountable for his hurtful behavior. Those things are choices...
I'm not suggesting they are easy choices...but they are choices none the less. I have made the fact that he is hurting me very clear. He has the choice to acknowledge it and work through it. And I understand that you may be suggesting that in his mind, he doesn't have a problem, therefore it's a moot point... but whether or not he thinks he has a problem, I would think that at a very basic level of relationship 101 my feelings would still matter. I mean... whether or not I always understand why he gets upset with me, I still care a whole lot about it, and try to accommodate his feelings as not to hurt them (which is likely a problem, considering it is NOT returned whether due to a disease or not).
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe my perception is off, and that is partially what is hurting me so much right now. But I am a very logical person, and it's really difficult to wrap my head around the irrationality that comes along with alcoholism. I get that it's an element of it...but I still don't know how to NOT look at things logically.
I mean, it is pretty difficult for me to separate what is considered part of a disease...and what is just him being an insensitive, selfish person. I don't know that I can blame everything on the alcoholism. I mean, there are plenty of alcoholics out there who work their butts off trying to better their lives and mend their relationships... what about people like my husband though? Is it really the disease talking...or is maybe the disease even an issue because there's and underlying selfishness to begin with?
I apologize if this comes off as really harsh and BLAH -- but I feel pretty angry and upset right now.
And honestly, I am MORE frustrated with myself than anything, because I am frustrated at the fact that I love someone and subject myself to someone who treats me like crap. I mean, it's not just the alcohol... he is consistently manipulative and emotionally abusive. Me giving him the time of day is pointless, because everything I say is twisted around and held against me somehow --used as ammo in some way or another. The fact that I waste my breath talking to him makes me feel like crap about myself, because I know that it doesn't matter, and I know that it's just going to be used to his advantage.
For example, the other day when I foolishly tried to talk to him about the drinking issue, he got mad (of course), and asked, "Really? So you think ALL of our problems is because of drinking? That's the ONLY issue?" --he asked this knowing that I wouldn't be able to say "yes" because there definitely ARE other issues... (although, it's hard to tell which ones may be related to the drinking sometimes) So when I started to say, "No, but..." and was going to continue to explain that it is a major source of many issues, and that working on that issue would help our relationship out a great deal and put us in the right place to work out the other issues --- before I could continue my response, he cut me off and said "See! Exactly!" and started going on and on, yelling loudly, talking over me so that I couldn't say what I wanted to. He CLEARLY did it on purpose, and it was manipulative because he knew that I couldn't say "Yes, that's our only issue," -- he does this ALL the time. And if I try to avoid a question, or answer it without a "yes" or "no" statement he will very loudly demand over and over and over again "YES OR NO! YES OR NO!"
Then because I realize that there is no point in discussing my feelings or talk out our issues with him... then when I attempt to retreat/refrain from talking to him -- he calls me over and over, and then leaves messages and texts like "you ignoring me isn't going to help. it isn't productive" and things like that. It makes me feel TRAPPED. And as much as I know that he says these things to get under my skin, and to get me to do what HE wants... I can't help that it gets in my head -- or, at the very least, then I know that if I continue to avoid talking with him, then later if I want to talk to him, he will attempt to force me to take blame for that too. And tell me how wrong and bad I am for ignoring him. It makes me feel CRAZY and it makes me feel trapped. The only solution I can even come up with anymore is that I should leave him, permanently, get a divorce. Unfortunately, as much as this is probably the only decent option I have... emotionally I am not ready for that :/
Again...sorry if I seem a little frazzled and ridiculous right now, but I am kind of emotionally charged right now.
-- Edited by rt on Thursday 30th of April 2015 03:13:00 PM
-- Edited by rt on Thursday 30th of April 2015 03:15:34 PM
((((rt)))) you are normal now for being in this disease. It will take letting go of your affected thoughts, feelings and behaviors first so that you can learn others from those who have come before you and survived the disease. Make sense?
Only one of the things I learned about knowing was what I just mentioned...I had to come to understand the disease from sooooo many others and acceptance was "just for today" I will live it as real. In the meantime while growing up in the program I did have the confusion and anxiety you speak to because new lessons conflicted with my own older habits of thinking, feeling and behaving. When I learned more I did much better.
Living in the present and not the past or future helps a ton and one of our pamphlets "Just For Today" helped so much. I memorized it. See if you have it or your meetings has it. Sometimes a meeting will give it away for free. Make sure to get the Al-Anon literature. Keep coming back.
RT, I don't mean to say that alcoholism and the disease model absolves him of responsibility and consequences. It doesn't. What it has done is warp his emotional and psychological functioning to the degree that everything passes through that diseased filter. You just gave loads of examples of standard alcoholic defensiveness, blaming, denial, and bullying/hostage taking relationship patterns. He doesn't choose to be that sick any more. He sounds like an emotionally crippled drunk. Period. He may be dry for now but he sure isn't in recovery because those conversations you cited are straight from the alcoholic playbook. Believing he is logical enough, insightful enough, objective enough, or humble enough to see the how much his disease is owning him at this time is not helping you. Right now, sounds like he is only capable of being an immature, blaming, bullying, manipulative dry drunk at best because that is where he is at with his recovery or lack there of. And it sounds like he is going to drink again soon and thinks he can twist this and play just enough head games with you around the topic to get you back and then do what he wants.
In sum, he's not ready for recovery yet. It is what it is so it's not a choice for him. Bullying you and manipulating you using blaming, deflection, denial and all sorts of other rypical alcoholic behaviors seem loke the better choice in his diseased mind because up til now it got him what he wanted which was to keep drinking AND have you. Please don't drive yourself nuts expecting logical behavior from a sick drunk. That will only keep you frustrated, paralyzed, feeling cheated and wounded when he could easily just stop this sick behavior and be a sensible person. He isn't sensible.
Accepting what he is and what he is bringing to the table because of that can be freeing for you. It can allow you to step ofd the merry go round and deal with reality rather than going round and round and round with his illogical drunk self trying to get him to see and behave rationally. So what do you do now? Do you have to divorce? I don't know. Maybe there is still some value in the relationship. Maybe there are are some boundaries that will be able to make this okay. That remains to be seen amd you don't have to figure all that out right now. My biggest point here in talking so much about him is just to state that it is freeing to finally accept "Hmm...he's acting just like a sick alcoholic with no recovery...because (drumroll) that is what he is." He doesn't have a repertoire of healthy help-seeking or coping skills to choose from. Knowing that...accepting that...You can focus on you and drop the futile arguing, games, pleading, trying to talk sense into him. You get to focus on you...the person that has gotten disregarded and whose needs have been on the back burner to this sick drunk all this time.
RT, I don't mean to say that alcoholism and the disease model absolves him of responsibility and consequences. It doesn't. What it has done is warp his emotional and psychological functioning to the degree that everything passes through that diseased filter. You just gave loads of examples of standard alcoholic defensiveness, blaming, denial, and bullying/hostage taking relationship patterns. He doesn't choose to be that sick any more. He sounds like an emotionally crippled drunk. Period. He may be dry for now but he sure isn't in recovery because those conversations you cited are straight from the alcoholic playbook. Believing he is logical enough, insightful enough, objective enough, or humble enough to see the how much his disease is owning him at this time is not helping you. Right now, sounds like he is only capable of being an immature, blaming, bullying, manipulative dry drunk at best because that is where he is at with his recovery or lack there of. And it sounds like he is going to drink again soon and thinks he can twist this and play just enough head games with you around the topic to get you back and then do what he wants.
In sum, he's not ready for recovery yet. It is what it is so it's not a choice for him. Bullying you and manipulating you using blaming, deflection, denial and all sorts of other rypical alcoholic behaviors seem loke the better choice in his diseased mind because up til now it got him what he wanted which was to keep drinking AND have you. Please don't drive yourself nuts expecting logical behavior from a sick drunk. That will only keep you frustrated, paralyzed, feeling cheated and wounded when he could easily just stop this sick behavior and be a sensible person. He isn't sensible.
Accepting what he is and what he is bringing to the table because of that can be freeing for you. It can allow you to step ofd the merry go round and deal with reality rather than going round and round and round with his illogical drunk self trying to get him to see and behave rationally. So what do you do now? Do you have to divorce? I don't know. Maybe there is still some value in the relationship. Maybe there are are some boundaries that will be able to make this okay. That remains to be seen amd you don't have to figure all that out right now. My biggest point here in talking so much about him is just to state that it is freeing to finally accept "Hmm...he's acting just like a sick alcoholic with no recovery...because (drumroll) that is what he is." He doesn't have a repertoire of healthy help-seeking or coping skills to choose from. Knowing that...accepting that...You can focus on you and drop the futile arguing, games, pleading, trying to talk sense into him. You get to focus on you...the person that has gotten disregarded and whose needs have been on the back burner to this sick drunk all this time.
Thanks for taking the time out to write all of that... I really appreciate it. That makes more sense, I suppose.
It doesn't help that I have dealt with an alcoholic mother (and brother, but his alcoholism does not/has not ever impacted me as much, because I don't see him a lot) too. It's like sometimes when I'm going through this crap with him, I start feeling really angry and resentful like WHY is this such a theme in my life? I know it's not like I'm a victim that the world is against...it's just really frustrating. I get so angry and feel so angry towards alcohol/drinking of any kind now as a result. I used to be a semi-normal person that could have drinks socially with friends once in a while, and I can't stand the sight of a bar or a bottle anymore... I don't like to hear about alcohol...seeing commercials on TV bring up RAGE inside of me... I feel STUPID because I'm ANGRY at something (alcohol) that isn't even a living thing that I can reason with! If that makes sense.
My husband's family is not helping, btw. They don't understand that he has an issue, because they are never around, and he obviously paints a way different picture to them than what is reality. So, while I attempt to make progress with him...they are offering him drinks and telling him, "you can drink sometimes... you don't have to completely stop...you just have to do it in moderation" and it makes me want to SCREAM because they can't seem to comprehend the fact that he can't just DO that. I mean-- he has definitely TRIED to do that, but clearly that doesn't work.
Now -- I understand the fact that there are probably a lot of people out there who respond the way his family is because they aren't familiar with alcoholism or any kind of addiction or whatever --- but that's what is most frustrating with his family. My husband had substance abuse issues for years which his family is obviously familiar with. He moved out to the state that we live in from where he grew up in with relatives to get his life together after he was in a treatment center for drug abuse. His same relatives that have tried to help him get his life together after drugs are the same people that are encouraging him to drink! And I am just sitting on the sidelines frustrated, angry, and in total disbelief...
I would love to talk to them about it, actually. But, I don't know that it's my place, or that it will make any difference anyway. But having them approach it that way does NOT help... all it does is give him validation that he "doesn't have a problem"
Anyway. I'm actually going to a counseling appointment today. I'm not really ready for face to face al anon meetings, so I'm going to get some emotional support from a counselor in the meantime...
p.s. I should also mention that I think the past drug issues are a large part of what holds my husband back from dealing with his drinking issue. First of all, when he attempted to admit he has a problem months ago, he made the statement, "It sucks to have to add another problem to my list. " And then when he hit that stage of denial again, he began comparing it to drugs in saying, "I don't have a problem, because drugs were so much harder to stay away from than alcohol has been."
Maybe he will "come to" with more time in recovery. Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...alcoholics have life threatening problems with this drug....chemical. I'm getting that you understand that we also have problems with it and we no longer or haven't ever drank to inebriation. The AMA has a definition for alcohol and alcoholism with might enlighten him along with open AA meetings. You know and you accept and that is what it is all about. (((((hugs)))))
