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I'd really like some honest impartial feedback here. Here's an email exchange with my ex in response to an incident that happened the night before. She is trying to figure out if she should try to work at our relationship to regain the feelings she once had for me. We are still living in the same house while we try to sort this out.
Here's some background. When she got home at 2 AM Monday morning I asked her if she was with 'T' the guy she's had a relationship with since things got lousy between us. She responded "you have no business asking that" and got very upset that I even asked. I calmly said "I'll take that response as a yes" and she got even more upset with me. The next night she and my son were yelling back and forth at each other, tossing the F bomb back and forth. She took his cell phone away because he yelled at her and was disrespectful. During their shouting I overheard her say "don't make me get your father involved in this" I didn't get up and join in the screaming so I guess she thought I wasn't supporting her.
Anyway here's her note to me: (D & V are our kids)
Subject: last night this morning
Sorry about the yelling last night, a miscommunication. Sometimes it is healthy to yell. I do not want to get into that habit but D nedds to know that certain things should not be done. I slipped into my old behavior, however Dominick understands I will not be treated that way. Thanks for the support you gave I didn't hear everything you said while I was in the shower but I did hear you tell him not to speak to me that way. I guess due to our past dysfunction he may need a little more than just you saying "don't talk to your mother that way". Like I said I didn't hear everything you said while in the shower. I was tired and not feeling well, had enough of the kids messes this weekend. I spoke with the three boys and V about it Sunday night. V and I cleaned up a lot of shit in the basement, she has a few plans to make it more kid friendly. I would be happy to help her, I think it would be wise to have them spend more time playing, watching TV or what ever down there than our living room. My ideas for future are t/k, be patient I am working out the details. I told you the other day, (maybe you don't remember) I will not be seeing anyone else during this time period, but I will not be harassed every time I go out with my friends. I understand how you feel regarding certain friends, I will speak with my counselor about that today. If you have changed your mind about trying than kindly let me know, I will change my plans. Have a good day! Partner?
Here's my reply:
I’m sorry if you didn’t feel supported last night. One thing I have learned it not to step in the middle of someone else’s heated argument and try to rescue by getting in the middle of something that’s not mine. You may not have seen it that way, but I was being supportive by trying to calm Dominick down and telling him that he was treating you disrespectfully and you don’t deserve to be treated that way. I didn’t know all the details about why you two were screaming at each other, so I didn’t feel it was my place to step in the middle of it. Please try to understand that communication has to work two ways. Things have seemed so haphazard around the house with respect to where the kids are after school, who is cooking, and where they are eating, there are bound to be some miscommunications happening until things settle down. It was nothing I did intentionally and I am not ‘playing games.’
Just please try to understand, you are free to do as you wish. I don’t want to control you or your friends. I may not think that it is appropriate for a mother of two teenage kids to come home from bars at two or three in the morning several nights a week; that is your business. But your relationship with 'T' is extremely painful to me. I know that I did a lot of damage to our relationship over the years, things that forced you away from me. But I feel that as I was getting better and was becoming capable of actually having a healthy, intimate relationship with you, you were unavailable. I felt a lot of your emotional energy was spent with 'T' regardless of how you defined that relationship. It felt like a knife in my heart. And it still is very painful today that if you want to even consider working things out between us, that you can’t see why that is a major obstacle holding me back. If that friendship is so important to you, I can’t stop you. But please also understand the amount of pain that relationship causes me.
I don’t like living like this. I appreciate the effort you have put forth in trying to make this family whole. I know it’s not easy, especially after all the damage I've caused. But it is very difficult for me to totally commit to a direction when you are not sure where you want to go with this. I can’t do this alone. You know how much I want us to give this a try, it hurts when you question whether I have changed my mind about trying. But I do not desire to keep trying if you do not want to. I did that for too long leading up to the divorce. I know that you probably don’t see it that way, I never got the feeling that you really knew where my heart was. The things you said about me were so far from the way I felt, I knew I was not getting my feelings communicated to you. I want you to know that I am still willing to try, the only thing that’s missing is your feelings for me. That’s something that I can’t force or will from you, nor do I want to. I would love those feeling to come from you freely, that’s the only way this can work. That’s something you never had to worry about with me. Although my behavior was (and sometimes still is) dysfunctional because of my disease and everything that’s happened, I never doubted how much I loved you. I just wish I was capable of expressing it better and giving you the things you needed from me at the time. I made a lot of mistakes and am still far from perfect, but I love you and am working hard on changing.
Love,
Lou
She told me today that she can't believe I sent such a nasty email. If I want to work things out I need to stop attacking her. I don't see anything I wrote as an attack. Am I missing something? Also I don't feel that asking her if she is out with 'T' is harrassing her. She said she still talks to him on the phone, so I know there is still communication between the them. If she is not out with him, she could just tell the truth and let it go. I don't care who else she goes out with at this point. I just don't feel I can work on this if he is still in the picture. Is that unreasonable? Am I missing something here? She said "you should read that email and hear how it sounds."
I can see a couple things that she might take as blame. Being the wife of an alcoholic, we tend to feel bashed even when there was no intention. Playing the victim roll.
The couple things that I saw that could be considered blame were : Things have seemed so haphazard around the house with respect to where the kids are after school, who is cooking, and where they are eating, there are bound to be some miscommunications happening until things settle down.
I may not think that it is appropriate for a mother of two teenage kids to come home from bars at two or three in the morning several nights a week; that is your business.
As far as being nasty..I wouldn't go that far. Beyond those two things I can't see anything that can be misconstrued as "nasty".
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
HI, One thing I like to do is step back sortof and look at my situation. Look at my life and how I handle things.
I stepped back and looked at yours as best I could with your information.
Lou the dynamics in your "house" are confusing to me and I am not even living there!!
I cannot imagine how confused the kids must be. You asked for feedback. I am not being mean or judging, not at all.
From what I remember you guys are divorced. She has a lover, you both share the same house, you are still in love with her.
yikes.
Lou I just reread the emails. I felt a coldness a matter of fact feeling from her letter. It concerns me when someone can say,"Well if you don' t want to try then I can stop trying." What????
For me there is no TRY there is DO. She seems more focused on the kids than you. I felt like she knows she has the upper hand in this.
Your email gave me feelings of love, confusion, pain, failure, desperation.
I saw nothing mean in it at all.
It is clear to me, she seems to be able to take it or leave it.
And you are hanging on for dear life....
I believe I said before, if I were you I would move out, get myself strong and not dependant on another for happiness. Then if you guys start dating and going slow, when you both are ready to actually do, not try, then you have a relationship.
It is my experience, that when someone is in love with another, divorced or not, they are not interested in anyone else. Love is very specific as to what it is and what it expects.
For me when I love a man as my husband, it is no less binding than the love I have for my children or mother. I will love him forever. period. Unless he dies, or commits adultry, will I maybe be able to be in love with someone else.
I wonder what makes you so hard on yourself? Do you honestly believe it is your fault she has been with another and you are divorced?
Now I am thinking you are A. I am t hinking maybe you know my experience?
Lou my husband's disease has torn us apart, almost lost our "home", he does not work, has abused me in horrible ways though that is not part of his Aism,
he lies, sells everything to get what he needs, is not supportive of me and on and on.
But he is A. He has a deadly disease. I have not divorced him, will not be with anyone else, I do my best to be the best person I can be for my hp and them for me. I treat him with respect, I don't say you should do this or should do that.
He is an adult, A or not he has a right to be who he is, what he is and make his own decisions. That has NO baring on me at all.
I don't blame him one bit for the hell the dang Aism has brought to us and our famly. I am not embarrassed by him, I don't disrespect him. It is the disease I hate.
What the A's loved ones choose to do has nothing to do with the A. They have a right to make their own choices. The A nor anyone can make someone do something they don't want to do.
The A cannot make someone feel something. The A has no more control over others than they do of them.
But I know I can never convince an A not to feel guilty from what they did to me. Be cuz it is inate in an A to feel guilt.
Hon I see you two as on two completely different paths. You want to meet up at some point, but she is constantly ready to go off another direction.
It almost feels like she is controlling you by making you think you have the control.
That sounds weird but ........
I don't see you manipulating at all. I see a heart on your sleeve. Sometimes that is taken as manipulationg becuz most people cannot believe someone can be that raw and forgiving. They usually think you are up to something or wanting to use them somehow.
Well here is your impartial response. I hope you can make some sense out of it or maybe get one ah ha!!!!
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see anything nasty about the letter.
I agree with Christy, it might be that she is feeling attacked, I know I can feel that way when my husband tells me something, even when he doesn't mean it as an attack.
It is possible because of the mention of the miscommunication in the house with the kids and her going out to the bar several nights a week, she did take it as critisizm.
As a parent of teens and little ones, I do know confusion and miscommunication are an everyday occurance, and if I am feeling overwhelmed, I can take a comment about how the kids trashed the house or a question of whether this place is a diner, as a critisizm even when I know the comments to be true. That is her issue though, not yours.
You both have to be able to communicate without taking every word to heart. That you can both write down what you feel really is good. I sometimes wish my hubby would write me his feelings.
It looks to me like you said what you where feeling and reminded her of your love for her and that you want to work things out as well.
I understand how her friendship with that man must hurt you; but is it possible she is using him as her armor, her way of protecting herself from any more hurt?
I also can understand her not feeling supported in her argument with your son. It can get frustrating when we end up in a screaming match with our children. But I do agree with your decision to not get into the yelling. Two parents screaming will do even less good with a teenager. You did the right thing, just letting him know he was disrespectful to her. When she cools down, she will probably realize that.
She is going to counseling and she seems to want to try. If you have made up your mind to try and make things work, you have to be patient. ( I know you have been.) It is going to take time.
I'm routing for you Lou, I hope things work out the way you want them to.
Thank you for sharing, I read your emails and saw my own situation in a whole new light. Your wife's email sounds so similar to something I would write when I am in shut down mode and not working my program. My shut down mode happens when I want something so badly and won't allow myself to believe it is possible. There have been times I have expected my husband's TOTAL unquestioning support simply because somewhere in my brain I decided he owes it to me for past times he should have supported me. Of course when he uses his right to refrain or worse yet ~laugh~ disagrees .... Holy Smokes I think flames might shoot out of the top of my head. It's not right, but it does happen I'm trying to change that expectation and the reliving of past the disappointment it causes. I also see in myself a habit of doing things to annoy my husband for a reaction, double bonus here .. it creates the chaos I am used to and also takes away my fear that if we as a couple aren't dealing with chaos there may be time to look at our relationship and we might see that there is nothing else there.
Oh boy this hurts because I have been starting my shut down mode the last few days. Her last line ... her and I have quoted one another without knowing it.
If you have changed your mind about trying than kindly let me know, I will change my plans.
My time of saying this came from pain, wanting to hear him say he was gonna make this work whether I wanted it to or not .... maybe so I could see his commitment, maybe to cover pride so if he had changed his mind I could look like it didn't matter. I see it written to you though and feel how painful it is to hear. At these times what I really want is to simply spend some time with my husband NOT dealing with our relationship, just being and actually smiling, enjoying each other. For some reason though the moment I feel I want that good time, I spend most of my energy staying busy and pushing him away so I am not disappointed. I think I am going to name this problem dysfunctional detachment.
I know you weren't really asking about that portion, I just needed to write that out before my head decided to block my reaction. Thank you for helping me see those things in myself.
In your email, I see valid views and honesty when I read it. Then I reread it as if it came form my husband, it stung a little. I do not believe you meant it to sting, I tend to be over sensitive, sometimes it is hard to read the good parts when my eyes are blurred from the things I took too personal.
I'm wishing you all the best, you're in my prayers.
Reading your remail exchange made me think of communicating with my A. If she thinks it's partly sunny and I say it's party cloudy I've attacked her. She uses the word attack so freely.
My immediate reaction to you speaking of the miscommunication was that it was critical of you, but after a second, I thought of it as you just speaking of the situation in the house and not directing blame though. I do admit though that many times when I'm complaining about how the house is totally messed up, that I am thinking of how much my A had a part in it. So I know my wife is touchy about it.
The staying out until 2 or 3 am mutliple times per week is a tough one too. It's not your business. As long as you are there to watch the kids though, what is the affect on the kids?
As far as nasty? I'm not sure what was nasty. She signed off w/ what appeared to be a sarcastic Partner? You seemed to take at a minimum of your share of the fault for things and your going out of your way to communicate that. You also stated your feelings. Your entitled to those. There is nothing wrong with saying how things make you feel. I'm not sure what else you can do to come off as not attacking her in her mine. You can't control her perspective as I know you know.
As for you not jumping into the argument. Boy can I relate. In the days where I yelled and screamed alot, my A would be on me for riding the kids, but would never hesitate to tell me to go yell at them or better yet, telling me to 'go spank them'. I will tell them when they are being disrespectful but I don't get involved in their arguements. She needs to learn how to communcate w/ them as well w/o dragging me into it.
Just from hearing how your wife is acting compared to my A, really makes me think how similiar the A and the Alanoner are at times. How be both behave in dysfunctional ways. Thanks HP I'm seeing at least some of my part in how my household behaves.
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
From what I gathered it appears that you have done things to damage your relationship with your wife. You still live in the same house, but it's "for the kids" not to be a couple. She asked if you were her "partner". Which leads me to believe that she doesn't see you as her husband but a partner in raising the kids.
The response you gave her wasn't "nasty" it just put her on the spot, she obviously wants to feel no guilt over her actions, she feels justified and doesn't think you have any right in questioning her. This may be because of past things that you have done, or she has no intentions on reconciling with you. She likes to able to do what she wants and have you to be her "partner" with the kids. This may be your arrangement between the two of you, it's not clear in the post.
The only suggestion that I have is to be clear about both of your intentions, if you are trying to make your marriage work, then, of course, all string to past relationships must be cut. Too many hard feelings to deal with. But if you are just going to be "partners", then space is the best thing between you. That's just my opinion. Hope it helps.
Uncle Lou: I hope I can take some solace from your note. Stepping into the middle of arguments is something I do to rescue and I have to butt out.
I think A's are overly sensitive. They can make a mountain out of tone, voice. If you are not being their mother and in that I mean a mother theresa they see abuse everywhere. They always do. If you are not enabling their issue is that you are abusing.
A's alway seem good at going off and finding other people to wedge into the relationship. My a did a stellar number with one of his business partners. When that one went he picked up another now he has another one. They seem to be the most important thing in his life. What I know now is that using is the most important thing in his life. It is what he likes to do. It is what he isn't going to give up ever. And it is what destroyed the relationship not any of his friends. I have boundaries with his friends/partners but my real issue is with him. He can make the friend the issue but it is with him and his lack of responsibility that the core issue is.
I found your email reply to be very heartfelt and not nasty but then I don't have the inbuilt resentment that your wife maybe is still harbouring at the moment. I remember writing to you one time before about your wife going out until the early hours of the morning as I said then it could be some form of payback and she is now throwing the responsibility back on your shoulders. Whilst put your feelings down on paper is a good way of healing you are not talking about this face to face. You need to come to a compromise on each others boundaries whilst you are living in the house and trying to work on the marriage. My gut instinct still tells me that you are being taken advantage of I hope that is not the case as you are a lovely person who has come a long way. Take a step back and hand some of it over to your HP. Thinking of you. luv Leo x
From my experience, communicting in e-mail fashion can be dangerous. One person can misconstrue a lot of words and meaning . . . sometimes how we write things and say them in our heads, is not how they are read by another person. You could also be hitting a very sensitive nerve when you mention her being out til 2 a.m. and being with "T." Usually, when a person is feeling that defensive, they may be having some guilt about their behavior . . . probably having it brought out to them by an A, who they have resentments against is difficult to take (kinda along the lines of "he did all this stuff to me and now he thinks he can tell me how to behave . . etc.).
I don't think your intent was nasty at all, and I would be thrilled as the wife of an A to hear my A say a lot of what you said. It's sad though, sometimes even when my A tries to get close I push him away . . . out of anger, fear of being let down again, self preservation, or just plain rebelliousness.
I do know this . . . just because you are an A, which has resulted in a lot of dysfunction and turmoil in the home, does not give your wife or the kids a right to behave poorly. Staying out until 2 a.m. would not be acceptable to me from my husband or partner no matter what . . . and having any kind of relationship with the opposite sex is not acceptable if there was a deeper side to it at one time (in other words, other than just an acquaintance). Almost sounds like she's trying to punish you . . . maybe without even realizing it. As the wife of an A, my heart has just been broken so many times, and if I don't make a conscious effort to be aware of my actions, feelings, behaviors, I can slip into the "I can do what I want because you owe me" routine.
There is nothing wrong with you now setting boundaries that you are becoming healthy. It stings from my A sometimes, now that he is in recovery, but how can I keep casting stones? Maybe we who are married to A's push sometimes, just to see what's going to happen . . . like little kids testing boundaries . . . it may not feel good, but the boundaries are not harmfult . . . they are helpful and show that a person loves you.
I'm beginning to ramble . . . I just see the dance . . . the dance of the A and the spouse of an A . . . it's so hard sometimes and I feel for you. I think patience goes a long way . . . hand in hand with grace.
