The material presented
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
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Hello all. Glad to have found the board. My name is Jenna and I am an adult child of an alcoholic.
After roughly 10 years of being away from al-anon I found myself back in the rooms as a result of dealing with facing the challenges of becomming the daughter & sister -in-law of alcoholics. It was suggested to my husband and I that we find an ACOA meeting to attend but since none are available in our area, we found an Al-anon meeting that was listed as being an Adult Children meeting. Unfortunately, despite the listing, the meeting is not an Adult Children meeting but I decided that since al-anon was the only program available in my area, then that was the program I would be going to.
In all the years I have attended ACOA, ala-teen and/or al-anon meetings all over the country, I have never experienced an issue the likes of which I am currently facing & I am baffled as to how to handle it. At the meeting this week, the Chair closed the meeting with "The Lord's Prayer" instead of the "Serenity Prayer". I was dumbstruck & while I did stand in the circle and hold hands I did not recite the prayer because I am not of any Christian based religion. I left the meeting rather promptly feeling offended and outraged. The steps say "God as we understood Him" not "God as someone else in the group understands him and thinks you should too". Truth be told, there were several other times when certain people spoke that there was a HIGHLY religous overtone that night that made me uncomfortable. IT seemed to be less about a HP and more about their Lord, God and Savior. Now please do not misunderstand me, it does not bother me that these people worship their God as how they understand him, however, it felt more like a church meeting and less like an al-anon meeting.
I called my longtime Sponsor (she does not attend the meeting as she lives out of state), she was flabberghasted and had no idea what to tell me other than to turn it over to my HP. After meditating and reading for several days I did call my local al-anon number to see if anyone could tell me how to appropriately handle the situation but the very nice girl I spoke to had no idea what to tell me, although she agreed that what had happened was inappropriate. I have looked on the web with no result. I have looked in the al-anon approved liturature with no result. Even after I turning it over to my HP, I am still feeling stuck as to what to do because every reading I seem to stumble upon talks about service work, that a meeting is only as healthy as its sponsors, etc. and now more than before I have this feeling that I'm supposed to do something, I'm just not sure what.
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!
Ok, I was just called by someone that the local Al-anon line gave my number to. She asked me what was going on, I told her and she in specific terms told me that I am having a personality issue with the group and then proceeded to tell me that while I could certainly be asked to be heard as a minority voice at the meeting, I need to take my own personal inventory as to why I am having a personality issue with the saying of "The Lord's Prayer". I explained to her that mine was an issue of principle as I am not Christian of Catholic, not personality and she proceeded to tell me that "The Lord's Prayer" is used to close lots of meeting and is not religous. She actually likened my issue with her own of not being happy when someone wanted to sing instead of saying the closing at the end of a meeting.
Ok, now I am more confused than before. Since when is an issue of personal priniple a personality issue? When did it become a personal failure for people in al-anon to not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? When did al-anon beome a religous group?
I just wanted to share w/you what our meetings are like here in Connecticut. I have been going to alanon f2f meetings for over a year and I have never attended one that was not closed w/The Lord's Prayer. In addition every on line meeting I have attended has closed w/the Lord's Prayer.Because I am a christain, I am very comfortable with it. However, I can understand your discomfort. Many times people stand outside the circle if they do not want to participate or they simply join in the circle but do not recite the prayer. I hope you are able to find a comfort zone for yourself.
When I am, in rural Alberta, in Canada, most meetings that I have been to also close with the Lord's Prayer. (We open with the Serenity Prayer). I would like to think, though, that if anyone voiced discomfort with this, we would be open to change. I'm a little flabbergasted myself, at the response you got. Before giving up on this meeting, especially if it is the only one in the area, is there a chance to attend a business meeting and bring the issue up there? Prepare yourself beforehand, with reference to the Traditions. Possibly the problem lies with just one or two members, and if it's brought into the open there would be some support for you. If you still get no satisfaction, I hope you will still come to online meetings, to get the help you need.
Hi Norest, My favorite f2f meeting voted last week to can the "Lords Prayer". So now 6 of my f2f meetings use it and one does not. All my AA meetings use it. It really bothered me at first that the prayer was voted down. My reaction is kind of a reverse from yours. But I decided to roll with it. This program is teaching me tolerance towards the differences in other people. The 12 traditions guarentee that my voice will be heard so after losing the vote I had to decide whether to stay with this group or not. I chose to say and focus on my recovery and to practice being tolerant. Overall I am a very intolerant, rigid and inflexible person and I need all the practice I can get. I have to major on the majors and minor on the minors or I will lose myself in the details and in the persuit of being right. This is my experience Norest and not a sublte suggestion on the way you should handle the situation.
I do have a question for you though. Are you sure that you were really heard? This can be a very emotional issue whenever you suggest changing something in the opening or the closing of the program. So emotional in fact that some people filter what you say and will hear things that were not said. I'd be surprised if they really heard you without throwing some of their own stuff into the mix.
Firstly, I'd like to say that Religion and Jesus are two completely DIFFERENT things. Secondly, I'd like to say that in ANY situation, people are going to have different opinions. As I have a different opinion of how some Alanon groups do not allow a person to disclose during their OWN private share WHATEVER it is in literature or material they have found very helpful that has assisted in their recovery. Essentially, contradicting what I thought recovery should be all about-- allowing people to share their deepest emotional insight despite what others THINK about how that person feels....
I will ALWAYS talk about Jesus, whether I'm in an Alanon meeting or work or anywhere I go because that is what my heart is made of-- love and compassion for others, including an A. I will also say that it saddens me and greatly disturbs me to hear others who say that they do not believe in Jesus and have their own beliefs. BUT, I respect that and let it go in one ear and out the other-- giving it to God to work it through for ME.
This is what recovery is all about-- whatever the program is that offers recovery. It's about treating people with respect, kindness, compassion AND allowing them to say/share their innermost emotions..... Just as Jesus had swept the sand off his feet when not welcome in his own home time, turned and walked away so that the plan God had for his life would not be halted, we MUST do the same if our peace and connection with "OUR HP", as Alanon refers to it is affected.
So here I am posting to boards, no longer a part of the online meeting because of being told that I cannot talk about certain things or have certain behaviors while online. Ultimately, that is a form of control and I don't want any part of it...... I miss people who are sincere and can relate and for those of you reading, you know who you are-- we had fun until strict rules were implemented to stop that fun.
There is ONE MORE comment I'd like to make as an observation and analysis of myself and ALL of these self-help groups----- If our life is so focused on being dependent on self help groups, then at what point do we make the change of direction in our life to break from that and not be dependent on it, pursuing an entire different direction for ourselves-- pursuing our dreams, our goals, our hobbies and CHANGING our life, not merely continuing to talk about the problems that occur?
I guess what I'm curious to know is at what point in recovery as a codependent does it become clear to a person of how just like the alcoholic in which words are ONLY spoken over and over again, action is taken to change their life, their circumstances in recognizing that WE are not the alcoholics savior, nor our we our own savior..... We talk about giving it to our HP, but often after years of being in all these programs, the feelings stay the same and essentially the program becomes ones life...... so really, what has changed for us? Our lives stay the same and we stay in programs for several years. Even the alcoholic is FORCED to leave rehab at some point--- so what's the difference with our problem compared to theirs? Someone once gave me some GREAT insight on this... And it was an alcoholic, but it was profound when you think about it. He said to me, it's ironic how a codependent is dependent on their self help groups----- gave me ALOT to think about actually and I realized he is completely RIGHT. No difference if we are dependent on alcohol or PEOPLE. I guess what we need to ask ourselves is could we be alone in this world and be okay completely with NOBODY. At least that is to the point I got to and realized YES, for the first time YES. And I was ONLY able to get to this sincere answer in my heart for one reason--- GOD!!! That is ALL we need and with God, our lives change, WE change...... We know right from wrong and what's acceptable and what isn't. How others should treat us, learn we deserve to be loved fully with compassion and respected completely by ANYONE OR MOVE ON.
True recovery comes from knowing that we can trust (as Alanon puts it) our HP to live a life He/She/It wants us to live and staying in our same circumstances I believe doesn't say too much about much we really do trust our HP... but rather, good or bad, we stay where we are comfortable and used to because change is very scary to most people. After all, if we can control things, then we feel like we are in control of our lives.
Welcome back to alanon. I am not an adult child of an alcoholic but I attend an adult child meeting because it is at a good time for me to attend and it happens to be a terrific meeting with alot of recovery. I simply follow the suggestion in the closing that says " to take what I like and leave the rest." For me, it the same 12 steps and the same principles. I also feel the same way about the lord's prayer. I am not a Christian but I have a higher power to whom I pray. And I sometimes use the lord's prayer because it contains the most important elements of prayer for me: praise, gratitude, petition, and forgiveness.
When something is happening in a meeting that I believe is inappropriate, I will bring up the issue at a group conscience meeting or at a business meeting. In this way, everyone has an opportunity to discuss the issue in relationship to the traditions and principles of alanon and I have always found that alanon happens.
It is a sticky issue but it is important to be discussed as alanon needs to be a safe place for everyone. It takes courage to bring it up at a meeting. If you chose to discuss it with the group, it can only help you and your group to grasp a better understanding of why alanon is not allied with any religion, sect, or denomination.
Not my day ... wrote a response to all and the puter crashed... so will try again ...
First I want to thank everyone that responded, I value and respect what each of you had to say. After calming down , I spent the day in reflection and study. I think Sooner was right, I do not beleive that the individual I spoke to actually heard me. I think that the minute I revealed my own personal beliefs, because they are differnet,foreign and possibly scary to her, she shut me down. While reading some of the things she suggested I read, I encountered the following: No where in any "al-anon approved" litureature does it list the Bible as being "al-anon approved liturature", in the preamble before meetings we say we will not discuss or share non al-anon approved liturature. Therefore, I believe that my issue is one of principle and not personality. Furthermore, no where in any al-anon liturature does it say that you have to be of a certain religion to participate, it says all those who are open to recovery are welcome, it does not say only those who beleive in God as Al-anon chooses to understand him may participate. Based on that I have decided to go to the meeting this week & discuss my issue at an appropriate time, in an appropriate manner and showing respect by being prepared. If I do not get the resolve I seek, I will then make a decision as to how to proceed.
Having grown up the daughter of a "Christian" man, a preacher (and an alcoholic not in recovery BTW) I have a very rich religous background. My P Grandfather was Jewish. My father was Pentacostal. My M Grandmother Lutherine. My mother Baptist. My assorted aunts and uncles Catholic, Protestant and Methodist. I have read the Bible, along with assorted other religous teachings, cover to cover. Although I may not choose to practice any of these religions, I respect them & the people who practice them. What I do not respect on any level, is when a person, deeply committed to their own convictions, takes it upon themselves to condemn the beliefs of another & make it their lives mission to convert others simply because their beliefs do not fall in line with their own. To quote Sanddie, "Ultimately, that is a form of control and I don't want any part of it". Do not be sad or disturbed to hear me say that I do not believe in Jesus and have my own beliefs. First I never said I do not beleive in Jesus and secondly you have no idea what my beliefs are so how can you have any feeling about something you know nothing of? Ultimately, I would put this out there ... if you want to discuss Jesus as part of your program and be accepted, then others should be allowed to discuss any other iconic figure that is part of their program without being judged. If the program is going to allow Christian prayers, and that is what "The Lord's Prayer" is, it is a Christian prayer, then other prayers from other religions should be embraced and used as well. My heart is filled with love and compassion for others and it has nothing to do with my religion, it has to do with who I am as a person.
I would also like to touch on something else Sanddie said: "There is ONE MORE comment I'd like to make as an observation and analysis of myself and ALL of these self-help groups----- If our life is so focused on being dependent on self help groups, then at what point do we make the change of direction in our life to break from that and not be dependent on it, pursuing an entire different direction for ourselves-- pursuing our dreams, our goals, our hobbies and CHANGING our life, not merely continuing to talk about the problems that occur?" This is something that has come up in my life the past week or so as a result of several negative comments made about my personal recovery program by others in the program. Somewhere in my own personal recovery program I made the decision to be a survivor, not a victim. I had spent many years being a victim and quite frankly, did not enjoy it. My goal in recovery was to use the tools available to me to become an adult with a healthy life, healthy attitudes and healthy coping skills. I did not start attending any f2f 12-step program believeing that, unlike medicine for diabetes or any other illness, it was a lifelong necessity for me to continue to attend a regular course of meetings. For me, the rooms were a learning environment and to me the purpose was to use the skills I learned in those safe environments in the real everyday world where there is no safety net. I can only assume, just like in any illness, that the treatment and recovery for each person is as different as each individual. It is also my understanding of any 12-step program that each individual must decide what is right for them. In other words, no one in any group has the right to tell anyone else how to run their recovery or judge how others work their recovery. I returned to the program because I was facing what to me were new challenges, never before having been the daughter or sister in-law of an alcoholic and beleive it or not, it is quite different, atleast for me, from being the daughter of alcoholics. For me, I do not beleive that my participation in al-anon is going to be forever, I beleive I need to refocus and learn how to use the original recovery tools I leanred in the past in these new relationships. That being said, the tools I learn in al-anon I will use the rest of my life even though I may not need to go to meetings for the rest of my life.
Namaste,
Jenna
(For those of you interested, namaste intimates the following: 'The God in me greets the God in you The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you' In other words, it recognizes the equality of all, and pays honor to the sacredness of all.)
I commend you for allowing others to be themselves... as I do the same. You commented in your post:
Ultimately, I would put this out there ... if you want to discuss Jesus as part of your program and be accepted, then others should be allowed to discuss any other iconic figure that is part of their program without being judged.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! That was the point I was trying to make, as I've walked away from Alanon ONLINE meeting here BECAUSE of my observation of seeing others during their time to share and offering their heartfelt emotions, in which a part of their recovery might have been reading a book by Melodie Beattie or another source other than Alanon, ONLY to have others "CROSSTALK" and tell the person that they cannot talk about that in Alanon. That was when I walked away from online because ultimately if a person is coming here to let out feelings and emotions that help them recover and expressing that is detrimental to their emotional, mental health, WE need to RESPECT every aspect of what they have to say EVEN IF it is not related to Alanon literature. This separation of self-help GROUPS sucks to put it bluntly.
Alanon may be its own program in recovery, but ultimately the entire PURPOSE is to help people recover, just as other groups.
I apologize if I appeared to express myself strongly towards you as if it were personal or ALL about religion of any type. Of course, this is part of my recovery too and reading your post about how upset you were about people forcing their religion or beliefs at the meeting triggered how some members of Alanon MUST have so much structure that they FORGET that we are dealing with peoples emotions that NEED to be addressed for themselves however they need to address them.
Thanks for your response and helping me understand a bit more how you took my response.
I do have a question for you though. Are you sure that you were really heard? This can be a very emotional issue whenever you suggest changing something in the opening or the closing of the program. So emotional in fact that some people filter what you say and will hear things that were not said. I'd be surprised if they really heard you without throwing some of their own stuff into the mix.
I agree very strongly with this, chances are this is a big part of what's happened.
I'd just like to share some more of my experiences about this issue. One of the regular members of my home group is a member of a fairly strict Anabaptist sect, sort of like the Amish. She often talks of her relationship with her God, it's a big part of the program for her. When I first started in alanon, I was quite wary of this, and almost decided that a group that included someone like her was maybe not for me, as my religious beliefs could not be more different. As time went on, however, I realized that what she was doing was sharing HER experience, strength and hope. I was free to take what I wanted, and leave the rest. Although we do not share beliefs, watching her gain strength from her spirituality has helped me define and come to terms with my own, very different spirituality. It seems to me very clear from the Traditions that we, as individual members, are free to hold and share our own beliefs, but that the group as a whole must not be "allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization or institution."
One other thing I'd like to comment on with your post "Ok, now I am more confused than before. Since when is an issue of personal priniple a personality issue? When did it become a personal failure for people in al-anon to not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? When did al-anon beome a religous group?Ok, now I am more confused than before. Since when is an issue of personal priniple a personality issue? When did it become a personal failure for people in al-anon to not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? When did al-anon beome a religous group?"
Alanon by FAR is NOT considered a religious group, but I'd say at times with all the control implemented by some of the chair people, it can be its own cult.... ESPECIALLY, when others are told directly that they cannot talk about whatever they wish to talk during a share--- Not something I want to be a part of so stay away from online discussion HERE in particular.
I do on occasion, when I have the opportunity of a day off work go to a f2f meeting here in my area and to be honest WE discuss anything and everything. Despite the same rule of "no crosstalk", the atmosphere is very relaxed, comfortable and each of us know we can say anything to anyone and respect eachother. Matter of fact, the last meeting I went to I discussed how it disturbed me that people are limited to what they can express in their share (it's like walking on eggshells with an alcoholic) and completely contradictory to a healthy recovery. It was good to hear that others understood and had heard that about some meetings being so structured. However, like I said though, its these meetings that worry so much about STRUCTURE that they forget about the emotions and need of the individual to express their recovery AT ANY LEVEL with other individuals.
In our meetings anyone may share their experinece,strenght and hope. But at the same time that one hour is reserved for Al-Anon. All other liturature is forbidden. Not because it is bad but because that hour is reserved for Al-Anon and anything else will dilute the program and it's benefits...no matter how outstanding the material. Al-Anon is why we are here. So you can bring your bibles and Dr. Phil but it's only for after the meeting.
I allow a wide diversity in sharing whenever the sharer is using the "I" word. When they switch to the "you" word then it becomes a dissertation on the subject of recovery or advice giving or lecture....and that is yuck...not what we are here for. So while I do benefit from hearing about the faith of another I don't want to be lectured on Sundays sermon. And while I am greatly encouraged by all the help I see people getting in therapy but I don't want to hear a re-cap of last weeks session. There is a line there.
