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Now, i know that alcoholism is a disease. The medical community says so, everysone says so. but sometimes i get so mad at my A because most people when they are sick, get treatment. I still have so much to learn about this disease and want to stop being so mad at my A. There has to be some level of choice involved doesn't there? I mean, at some point in the night doesn't he think, "gee, i have had way too much to drink". And when he makes little comments about how he is not very nice to his body, or he won't live until he is 80, and how his liver hates him, or that he is not allowed to make phone calls after 7pm, isn't it his choice to not do anything about it? I don't think that i can find peace with this situation until i can accept the fact that it is a disease. It is very hard for me to understand this because i am fortunate and never have had an addiction problem. How do i wrap my brain around the fact that it is a disease and not a choice?
You say, "... i am fortunate and never have had an addiction problem. How do i wrap my brain around the fact that it is a disease and not a choice?"
That could have been my quote, 123!!! I have asked this question for all nine the years I have been with my A. I still do not have the answer. Some people tell me no one would choose alcoholism; it has to be a disease...so part of my thinking tells me maybe it is a disease, but, for the most part, I cannot accept that. It is a constant struggle for me to try to understand addiction because I have never had to face it in anyone with whom I associated. Is there some group of errant cells lurking in his body that makes him pick up a bottle of vodka and down it? Or is it that he makes a choice once in a while to have a good binge? I believe the latter is most likely.
I wish I could come up with the answer, but so far, I cannot wrap my mind around the "disease" angle.
You say, "I don't think that i can find peace with this situation until i can accept the fact that it is a disease." That could have been my quote too.
In short, I understand where you're coming from.
Best wishes,
Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 23:11, 2008-01-14
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I struggled with the same question last year. It seemed better to think of it as a disease, although it was difficult to entertain that idea.
I understand your thoughts and feelings (I think). I've been there as I said.
From my experience, I got to the point where it didn't matter how they categorize it (alcoholism). To me it doesn't matter. I began to believe that it didn't matter when I began to focus on what was good for me and began taking steps that were healthy for me. I took the focus off my AH and whether he has a disease or has some control over his drinking.
Now, if someone would have said this to me last year, I would have been really frustrated with him or her. Well, in fact, my psychologist did say that to me once and I felt irritated. I felt he missed my point. But I learned in counseling that when the psych said something to me that irked me, I'd better consider it seriously. I did and gradually got to the point that it doesn't matter if it is a disease or not.
I hope you can find your own peace. Keep striving for it; I believe peace is possible for anyone who seeks it. Stormie
This to me was the hardest thing to accept. There are still times when I fall back into my old ways of thinking about it.
What has helped me the most is to realize that those of us who don't have the disease are able to make choices, when it comes to using alcohol, but those who do have the disease are powerless when it comes to making those choices (ie. Step one of AA). The problem is that in order to get "well" they have to admit that they are powerless over alcohol.
Hmmm. I guess thats why we have Al-Anon.
Take Care of yourself.
Claudia
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A person's a person no matter how small --Dr Suess
I still struggle witht that concept. One way that helped me understand was to truly evaluate one of my own issues: I have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are impulsive like alcoholism, are deep rooted and even have a twelve step program for recovery that works if you want it to. All the same, I think the AH in my life can be a selfish [insert bad name here] who is also a mature adult, able to bear responsibility for the decisions that he makes. The fact that he doesn't utilize that responsibility shows that he is in the grips of alcoholism. To me, this doesn't mean that it's OK for him to do lame (really lame) stuff and get away with it becasue the poor boy is sick...what's important to me is his willingness/readiness to confront and deal with it, like going to the doctor if you are really sick.
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I'm like a pinch of tea...put me in hot water and see how strong I can be.
Aloha Concerned...Stay with the disease concept and when you can get to the AMA site (American Medical Association) for the full discription. I know you said you accept the disease concept...and you said that you have doubts when you wish he could figure this thing out. (sorta kinda)
What helped me understand more was an ancient chinese Poverb regarding alcohol addiction and ism. (Distilled alcohol predates the life of Christ by some 3000 years and that is part of the current situation.)
The Poverb goes..."First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man." Who among us will argue with that old ancient adage?
I won't! A part of the description of alcoholism from the AMA states that, "...the alcoholic has thust lost the ability to choose whether they drink or not..." We use to read the discription of alcoholism and how it affects those who come in contact with it and what happens to them and us, before the start of every meeting. I for one thing we still should. It's a wakeup call.
I sometimes stuggle with this concept, as well. Not often - as it is so futile - but nonetheless, I wonder. Here's my question about it, though. Are there "degrees" of alcoholism. Why are some "alcoholics" able to hold down a job, a family, maintain relationships, etc. and others are on skid row? It's not an intellect thing either. My A is a brilliant, educated man - and he's always one step from the streets. I don't get it.
One thing that helped clarify my thinking on this was the "doctor's opinion" - one of the introductory chapters in the AA Big Book.
Today, it helps me to think of it as a disease of thinking as much as of drinking.
Check out the awesome post of a few days ago titled "the choice to drink". You might also find some good stuff searching for "disease" on the board.
I still wonder about the apparent difference in degree of functionality of different alcholics. My current working hypothesis is that it has to do with how much THQ builds up in the brain (tetrahydroisoquinolone - google thq or thiq) as a result of the actual physical differences in the way alcoholics and non-alcoholics metabolize alcohol. Maybe some people generate a higher amount of thq per drink. Maybe it has to do with what age they were when they started drinking. Maybe something I haven't thought of.
Having said all that - this is all interesting, but it's not where my focus belongs if I want to improve MY life. Even if I'm out to find a cure for alcoholism, that's my work life - it's not my personal life and how I relate to alcoholics and others affected by the isms. For me, I needed to spend some time learning about alcoholism, as suggested in the CAL pamphlet "3 Views of Alanon" and in tradition 5; that in turn freed me up to say, okay, I get that to some extent, now I can start doing the main alanon thing and focusing on me. For me it's almost like the hp thing - we each develop a concept of "our hp as we understand him", and I kinda think we each need to develop a concept of "alcoholism as we understand it", too, in order to be able to move forward. For some of us it's "I understand that I don't get it and never will, and that's okay"; for others of us it's "I have some understanding of some of the issues, and that's okay".
Open AA meetings, or anniversary meetings, are great for perspective on this too.
If the alcoholic has a choice, it's the first drink. Not the 12th. Or as my sponsor used to say, if you get run over by a train, it's not the caboose that kills you.
In one of the very last conversations I ever had with my father, I was 14 years old and arguing with him about his drinking. He rarely raised his voice... and calmly told me that he had gone to an AA meeting just last week and "I'm not like those guys, I can stop any time I want to". He was dead a few weeks later.
Some years later, I found a letter from his mother chastizing him for his drinking - probably written 5-10 years before I was born. She said "I know you say you just like to drink and can stop any time you want".
I became aware of several things.
1. My attempts to control/argue were no more successful than my grandmother's. 2. The disease gives a pretty consistent message to its victims. 3. Alcoholics never change much if they keep drinking. 4. Most importantly... I had nothing to do with his alcoholism - there it was, on a handwritten sheet of paper from a time before my parents even met.
I think everyone who comes here struggles with that question. I know I did and still do most of the time. I think one thing that helped me was the fact that I work with addicts all day long and their addiction doesn't bother me. They come and go, I try to help them as much as I can and then they're off on their way. I don't try to control their behavior. I ask them if they want help and I try to find help for them if they do. Usually they don't. On the other hand when the addict/alcoholic was my husband, I was so wrapped up in it you would have thought I was the addict. I was insane, if he was late from work I would start checking about an hour after the usual home time and sure enough almost every time it was another binge. I was validated even though I hated it. Then I would start the worrying, looking for him, cancelling credit cards, etc. Finally I walked away after 7 years of this. It has taken me a really long time to come to the point where I can say, I don't think he would choose this yet he DOES choose this. Many people choose to go to AA and get better. He chooses to drink/use and go to jail repeatedly, to live in a shelter with nothing and to have no life with his kids. He has been given alternatives, hope, a light at the end of the tunnel but he doesn't have the patience to make it all the way to the end. So is it a disease? Yes, just like diabetes is a disease. Does he have a choice? Yes, he can choose the treatment or he can choose to continue living in disease and getting worse.
Either which way, whether disease or not, it's certainly not an excuse for nasty behavior and the disease can be put in check by the man should he so desire with all his heart. What I came to realize is that whether it's him or my clients, it's not my problem that they have a disease and I don't have to stick around to be treated like crap by anyone. It's much easier to let go of resentments when your well being isn't hinged to theirs. I would have thought that impossible a year and a half ago but now the opposite seems insane!
If we think there is a choice, do we think we can change their mind? If it's a choice, are they purposely drinking at you? If it's a choice, are they purposely destroying themselves?
If it's a choice, it's theirs..not much we can do either way.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I have come to see that by me struggling with this question, I take the focus off of me. For me, this question is a device of self-sabotage. If I fuss and wonder over this question as opposed to accepting it and believing it and getting on with working the program, I am placing a heck of a lot of energy into the A and not into me. I agree with R3, its futile. For me, I just want to work my program and gain as much recovery as possible. Its working for me to believe that it is a disease. Its working really well. Just my 2 cents, J.
I used to struggle with this, until one day I came home from work, and saw my otherwise healthy wife lying on the floor passed out at 10:30am, two small children playing by themselves unsupervised, and she had polished off an entire bottle of vodka (which lay empty beside her). Quite honestly, as mad and angry and frustrated I was with the whole damn addiction thing - it was pretty easy to come to the conclusion that NOBODY would choose this life for themselves.
I occasionally do compare it to some of the other diseases, but it is the element of choice that separates this one from the others, in my opinion. The closest analogy I can come up with is that it is like a diabetic, who chooses not to take his/her insulin.
I fully believe that alcoholism IS a disease. Where I get confused, is the grey area of "choosing to get better", because it is not as simple as "strong people get sober, weak people do not", nor is it a case that "people who love their spouses/children/family" get better and those who do not stay sick.
I think I end up falling back on the immortal words of my sponsor, who used to remind me (countless times): If you knew the answer to your question, would it REALLY change anything?
Take care Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I fully believe that alcoholism IS a disease. Where I get confused, is the grey area of "choosing to get better", because it is not as simple as "strong people get sober, weak people do not", nor is it a case that "people who love their spouses/children/family" get better and those who do not stay sick.
Honestly I don't give much thought at all anymore to the disease question. I just don't. I just accept it for what it is. I whole-heartedly agree with Barisax, though, about if there's a choice - it's at the first drink - not the 12th. Got that....without question. I guess (cuz I'm in a inquisitive mood right now) - I wonder about the "choice" at the first drink. I also have the same confusion as Canadianguy about "choosing to get better". I hear SO MANY people who have the blessing of not having to deal with alcoholism "up close and personal" in their lives, use that "if they loved their family enough, they would straighten up" line. It hurts my heart when I hear that. I KNOW better in my mind, because as everyone's pointed out, no-one would CHOOSE this lifestyle. But why that initial drink then? I also LOVED what Barisax said about the note from his grandmother to his dad. Especially the line, "The disease gives a pretty consistent message to its victims." Wow....when I get caught up in the lie of "He wouldn't get sober FOR me...." then I have to remember.....he won't get sober FOR anyone - except himself if he "wants" it. Then I'm back to, "Can you get sober if you 'want' it badly enough? Or is it a disease that allows its victim no choice?" Sorry I got tangled up in this. I think about this more as an academic exercise, then something I need to figure out in order to accept it. Emotionally, I'm at an "it is what it is" level. Period. But academically, I'd like to "understand" it.
I think I end up falling back on the immortal words of my sponsor, who used to remind me (countless times): If you knew the answer to your question, would it REALLY change anything?
Take care Tom
BINGO! That is a question my psychologist asked me once. I thought about it and then decided that it didn't matter how they classify alcoholism. All I know is the negative impact it has on lives.
I guess I am as usual the square peg. I KNOW it is a disease. I KNOW they do not choose it anymore than someone chooses to be diabetic and have a low blood sugar episode.
How hard can it be when it can be seen in our dna? We can look out our own dna and it can be seen now that we have the markers to be an addict.
People start smoking, do you not believe them when they say they want to stop? They try over and over. But usually start again.
Do you believe people choose to drive and kill their children, others children?
Do you believe a person would want to wreck their work van, losing all their tools, break a pole and make half a city lose its electricity?
Loose their homes, families, pets, livlihood?
go to court for dui's go to jail, prison?
throw up their stomachs, eat up their liver,
wrinkle and look twenty years older? lose their integrity?
In my experience not being an addict, I have had so many, too many loved ones die from being an addict. I have seen them from childhood to death. I have seen their pain.
One of my best friends in the world is A, she was the director of our local Albany free from Alcohol and other drugs. She is a fighter against the dang disease.
I know how much my A loves me I have known him all my life. I know how happy he was in recovery. I saw him go from a very happy healthy man with years of recovery, have brain surgery, wake up relapsed by no fault of his own.
MANY times back in recovery with me up here, for a month or two but had such horrid headaches, turning to self medicate, back messed up again. Finally giving up becuz it was EASIER to not fight it, unable to stop ever again.
Sometimes we forget, unlike the unaddicted, an A cannot take pain med, cannot have morphine, or other drugs to stop HORRIBLE pain, becuz it will make them relapse.
So what happens? they finally cannot stand it, go find the pain drugs on the street, and start the whole mess of being a using A again.
When an A is in recovery, they have to read everything, cold med, mouth wash and on and on for alcohol content.
Sadly my experience with A's is frigging endless. I would never believe anyone would choose to be an A. no way.
Probably what makes me love my A the same as the day I met him.Through all the H this horrible disease has put us through, I still cry almost everyday for missing him and my first husband who was killed on the road for drinking too much and getting ran over.NO he never chose to leave his young wife and two babies.. no way.
I have to agree, Deb. I cannot for a moment believe that anyone would choose to live through that kind of H. And as for the choice to find help and get better. I have known an aweful lot of people with many types of diseases and maladies, who refuse to do what it takes to treat themselves and get better. How many people in this country alone are severely overweight? (Just an example folks. Please don't anyone take offense.) Do they have a choice to get active and quit eating hamburgers? Of course they do. Do they realise they will live shorter lives? Of course they do. People with heart disease, eat fatty foods. People with lung disease, smoke. People with diabetes either refuse to take the insulin or like my dad, think they can use it to cover for when they don't eat right.
My personal theory, and I'm not anybody special, is that if you care about YOURSELF, you do what it takes. If you don't, you don't. I don't know an active A who truly gives a rats a$$ about their own well-being. Oh I know, they are the most selfish and many times nasty people we know when they are using, but that is usually a cover up for the lowest of the low self image.
Anyway thats my take on it and it helps me put it away, cause as has already been said, it really doesn't change anything for me; except, maybe helps me to detach as I do not have to take the actions or words of a diseased mind personally. But then, I don't have to take the words or actions of a non-diseased mind personally either, so I guess we're back where we started. LOL It really doesn't matter to my recovery.
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
My personal theory, and I'm not anybody special, is that if you care about YOURSELF, you do what it takes. If you don't, you don't.
Don't fall into the perfectionism trap. I've known quite a few alcoholics who got sober, and then tried to lose weight, quit smoking, and fix everything else they judged to be wrong with themselves. The pressure to do these things is enormous, and alcholics are rebels at heart.
I weigh more than I did when I got sober. Does that mean I don't care about myself? Or does it just mean that my primary addiction is food, and that is much stronger than my addiction to alcohol ever was? Abstinence is not an option for food.
IMO, skinny people have no useful information to offer fat people (other than "why can't you be like me?") just as teetotalers have no useful information for the alcoholic.
I may never lose enough weight to fit the insurance tables, buy off the rack clothes, or to stop getting those little judgemental sneers from the perfect-body crowd. I may never win the lottery either. But I'd sure as hell like to stay sober. Drinking won't make me skinny, or rich, and it will take away what I do have. And I'm very grateful for what I have today. All 250 lbs of it.
I belonged to OA for many years. There were many a's that became sober and turned to food for their drug of choice. Most said that was the hardest addiction to overcome.
