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I've learned a gret deal lurking in this forum and reading the collective wisdom found here, thank-you. Here's another question I have:
How do you handle the lying aspects of someone who is an A? Relationships are built on trust and of course A destroys that trust when the A is in relapse or freshly out of it.
Our daughter (25) is going through periods of 5-6 months of work and progress followed by brief relapses, self-hatred, then recovery. There have been five cycles of this over the past two years. The relapses are precipitated by reverting to old lying patterns to hide it that destroy the trust that's been slowly and partially rebuilt. Then our A comes clean and confesses everything, reclaims sobriety and legitimately starts out again working the steps from square 1.
My wife is more willing to forgive and really give her a genuine fresh start and act like nothing happened on a lot of external levels. I am too in theory but it's harder to come by for me. Even though I don't mean to, I'm treating my A with suspicion and distrust that she picks up even as she's really working hard again. She's earned the mistrust but I feel like as a Dad I'm communicating a message that says, "I'll only love you when you're doing well. When you're not, I'm backing off even when you're trying to establish a fresh recovery."
When you engage with an A that is fighting relapses and recoveries, I never can be sure what phase she's really in and whether she tells me the truth when I ask her how everything's going. How do you guys handle this? Is distrust just a reality that I need to accept until she's established herself clean for more than a few months at a time? Do you give your A the benefit of the doubt when they say they're "working hard" and you don't really know what's going on inside? Do you stay at arms length to protect yourselves or do you drop the barriers and let them back in, being willing to be lied to again, until it becomes apparent that something really is wrong?
Alanon with it's limits on crosstalk has prevented me from going into this at meetings and everyone won't share there as much as they seem to do here. I'd appreciate any wisdom on how you deal with the lying that occured in the past and threatens to affect the future of your relationship with your A.
Something I heard here, actually, that helps me to remember is:
Don't go by what they say; go by what they do.
When my A is snippy and defensive, I assume he's having a harder time in his recovery than when he's not, and I pull out the qtips (Quit Taking It Personally). But I try to only say what I need to say for me - so for example if I ask how he's doing, I don't ask it until I'm confident that I'm asking because I want to ask, and my wanting is not dependent on a positive or polite or even any reply.
Much to my surprise, sometimes when I do this, and get no answer, a few days later I get an unsolicited "I'm just having a really hard time right now", or "my head is just not right", or "I just don't like where I am right now."
As for the meetings/crosstalk thing: I'm with you, online can be an easier forum for that, but also arriving early/staying late to talk to people (such as people I've heard share something that resonates with me) is good, and a place where it's okay to ask direct questions. For me, finding a "beginners meeting" was hugely helpful, because I was able to raise my hand & say "here's something I just don't get", and get a reply (even if it was in alanonese, which I then had to translate. But this got easier with time). And a sponsor will help with this too.
Jeff, I can tell you love her and want desperately to trust her. That is hard when you don't have proof she will act accordingly. I believe in healthy boundaries. I don't feel I have to put myself in unhealthy situations because I love someone. But it is easier said than done. Please stick around. This forum is great. I wish there were easy answers. I am dealing with my dad right now so it is sort of the flip side of what you are going through. He is long distance and is calling after a year this time gone. It is so hard, I dread his calls because of the lies and chaos. It is so dramatic with him. He is so insecure and mighty at the same time. I don't know how to deal with it. I love him so dearly, some of my best memories are with him, as I am sure you have with your daughter. But they are who they are. My dad is very sick. He will be ok for 6 months or less and then get all crazy again and be inappropriate and scary on the phone. I thank God for long distance today. I could not handle him living near me. If he calls at 3:00a in the morning I can just say that he needs to wait until tomorrow to call. But that is hard too. Boundaries are really hard in an immediate family. The last time I put one up I didn't hear from him for a year. What do you do? Well Jeff, you come right here and meet with me and others and we will help put salve on those wounds of yours and dress them with gauze of understanding and care. You are not alone friend. We are here for you.
I feel that one of our insanities is to believe them again and again and going around the same mountain over over. Until WE break our own pattern of accepting that insanity it continues.
I wouldn't allow any person to gain my trust and squash it repeatedly, let alone go back for more. I would have to tell that person I'm jumping off the merry-go-round and would not go down that road again until I was shown some consistant recovery and not their usual pattern. That doesn't mean I wouldn't continue to care or love the person. It just means my game rules have changed and I don't wish to play by their rules anymore.
*Nothing changes if nothing changes*
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
Part of taking care of ourselves is not trusting untrustworthy people. Wether they are our children, spouses, sisters or brothers. When an alcoholic is in the disease, they lie. They just do. And I was burned so very many times because I wanted to trust. Because it was easier to live in denile. It made it easier to love. But I wasn't being true to myself. I was denying reality and that just let the disease grow. I like the idea that trust has to be earned back. Doesn't mean I can't love the person or even ahve a relationship with them. It means that I have to have my eyes wide open and take care of myself so that their lies don't damage MY life. The "other" 3 C's I can "care". It is ok to still love an A. I can "contribute" by believing their lies, or kicking them even though they're down. And I can "cope" which is me learning how to live a happy life with an A in it or not in it.
what incredible insight there is in this piece. I am so impressed by the knowledge and credibility and careful thought people have. I wanted to trust the A over and over. I really did. Now I look at whats in it for me. Obviously there is nothing nothing nothing for me in the relationship with the A the way he is now. I do not even have guilt about the situation anymore. I gave him back his own power. He has the power to attend to his own life. I am impressed that you can name the cycles. The cycling through I have to say nearly killed me. There were times when the A could be pleasant, even loving then he would completely sabatage it.
Having an almost 30 year old daughter who has NEVER chosen recovery for any length of time, who continually lies through her teeth, I can honestly say that if nothing changes, nothing changes.
My trust has to be earned.
My daughter has established a long standing pattern of screwing up, apologizes all over the place, keeps her nose clean for a few days, and back to the same old same old.
Years of lies, the same pattern over and over, these have worn on my soul, and honestly, I have just let go and let God.
She knows where I am should she ever decide to turn her life around. Until then I really have nothing to say.
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"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience." - Woodrow Wilson
