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I need advice on how to deal with my active alcoholic Mother. She is 85 years old, educated, sophistocated and lives independently. She was a great mother, and did not begin drinking until I left for college. I have told her respectfully and clearly on several occassions over the years that she is abusive to me while drinking. My discussions change nothing. She flatly denies any drinking problem, and appears to remember absolutely none of her behavior the next day. My Father always helped to keep her in line and away from me when she was out of hand. He died 18 months ago.
Until his death I spent some weekends at their home and travelled with them from time to time. Since he has died I have decided that I will not be with her after 5:00 p.m. as by then she is staggeringly, horribly drunk and ugly and there is no one to intervene. I am unable to control her at all.
Since his death, and some horrible events with her I have twice, gently and respectfully but very clearly stated my choice not to be with her after 5:00 p.m. so long as she chooses to drink. She was sober during these conversations. She has laughed at the ubsurdity of my suggestion that she has a drinking problem, and feels that I have simply become a bad daughter who is newly angry and difficult. I have I made it very clear that I love her but will no longer spend the night or travel with her. These discussions have been very hard on me. I do not wish to repeat them anymore.
Despite my clarity with her, she puts me on the spot every time I talk with her about coming for a day visit. She wants to know if I am going to spend the night. Since my clear discussion with her, she has also asked me to go on two separate oversees trips with her for two week periods at any time of year at my election. She pretends that we have never had these conversations about her problem and my boundaries. I cannot stand to have the same horrible conversation with her again and again about her drinking. I cannot come up with novel excuses each time to avoid her invitations. I feel sorry for her, and I ldo not want to upset her nor leave her completely alone. I do not want to do an intervention, nor anything else. The time for that has passed. (I could never get family agreement to do it).
Does anyone have any ideas about how to handle her without having any more awful discussions which lead nowhere, and without changing my boundaries?
I'm so sorry you have this to deal with. This is a terrible disease.
As to your question, my suggestion would be to be very direct. When she asks about you staying over or traveling with her, just say no. I would not discuss it further. You do not have to explain or make excuses. That is a position her disease is trying to put you in. It is a control tactic. She is trying to change her reality by ignoring it, and you do not have to be a party to it. If she tries to drag you in to a discussion about it just refuse to talk about it. You have already made her aware of your position.
It is hard to be firm. They try all kinds of tactics to make us feel bad. You are not suddenly a bad daughter. This is not your fault. You are doing the best you can. You are a wonderful thoughtful daughter who has not deserted her mother. Your boundary is a loving one, for your mother and yourself. Just stand firm and don't let the disease chip away at it.
One thing that helps me is to think of these distastful interactions as a jekyl and hyde feature of my A. One minute he will be nice and the next the evil one will be talking. If I think of the hurtful, guilt provoking, or poor me stuff as coming from the evil one, I can stand firm.
One other thing, if she is drinking daily, there is no time of the day when she is actually sober. Even if she is not drunk, she is not going to have a normal thought process. You will not be able to reason with her. You are talking to the disease. My point is that you may have the expectation that she will hear you and then YOU will be hurt over and over again when she will not acnowledge it.
Anyway this is my experience. Hope something in it helps. Take what works for you and leave the rest.
Keep coming back here. We do understand. If you can find a face2face meeting too, they really help.
You are in my thoughts.
In recovery,
__________________
~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Jen, Thank you so much for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. I read your response three times. Your affirmation of my predicament was really kind and helped to assuage my guilt. In the future I will do exactly as you have suggested, and I will "just say no". I am glad that you added the part about refusing to be dragged into a conversation about it. That is exactly what she does, and I flounder while she does it. I will be more firm in the future.
I have never thought about the fact that there is no time when she is sober. She is so cogent and energetic during the day, I did think that she was hearing me. I suppose I will never know how much of her refusal to acknowledge my boundaries or to "hear me" is her denial versus how much is actual impairment of thought/lack of sobriety.
I am seeing her tomorrow and it really helped me to have heard from you, Jen. Thank you, Kai.
I'm so glad you found us. This site is a godsend. Keep coming back. You will get wonderful E,S,& H (Experience, Strength, and Hope) here. There are so many who understand.
"denial versus how much is actual impairment of thought/lack of sobriety. " Denial is a part of her impairment of thought. It is a tool that the disease uses to cloud her thinking, and causes the chaos that clouds ours. At least that is how I understand/explain it to myself. Denial is not exclusive of the impairment/lack of sobriety. It is a vital part of the merry-go-round of addiction. Without denial/dishonesty I do not believe the "addiction" could not survive. I think that is why the AA program says "rigorous honesty" is required for recovery.
Anyway, sorry if this is too much. I have a bad habit of sharing too much sometimes. Thats why we say take what you like and leave the rest.LOL
Hope your visit goes well.
In recovery,
__________________
~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Like Jen said, the next time you are asked, just say no.
It is such a hard little word to say sometimes. For me, next to impossible in the past.
It has taken this program to teach me that no is an option. And futher more, that No is a complete sentence. No justification, or explanation is necessary. That is still the hard part for me, just saying no and letting it drop. But it really feels so amazing when I am able to do it!
Aloha Kai and glad you found us. My experience is that those who best work with alcoholics are recovering alcoholics. They do "12 step calls"; calls where they go visit an active alcoholic and tell them how it was for them, what they found out and how their lives are presently without alcohol. I would go to a recovering alcoholic first. You might call the AA central number or "hotline" number in the town where your mother lives and ask them if they can help.
Who knows...it's sure better than what is happening now. In the meantime find the local "hot line" meeting for the Al-Anon Family Groups in your town and go see how "not alone" you are in this problem.
David, you need to copyright that saying! It is my new favorite. "No is a complete sentence". I may have that emblazoned on my tee shirts, shoes and forehead. Thanks so much for your insight. Kai.
Jerry, you are so right. I did go to two Al anon meetings in the past and purchased the literature. I liked them very much. I am glad for your urging, and I will go again. My ten year old really needs something too. He liked the one al a teen (sp) meeting he went to, but there was only one other young person who was in the meeting... and he was 15 years old. I am in a large metropolitan area, so the size of that meeting surprised me. We will try some other meetings for him, as there are a lot of them. Thanks, Kai
If I really felt she was in complete denial, I would video tape her.
Probably not the alanon way...The thing is simple, we cannot change them so we change ourselves. You set a boundary. Good for you, when she brings things up, state your boundary, change the subject.
Debilyn, you echoed my thoughts. I think she would be astounded by a video, and that it would horrify her, perhaps enough to do something about it. She would also be crushed and consider me a traitor and and consider herself more alone. Given her age (85) the time for her to get well and to mend fences and to be happier is likely not in the cards Success would be undone by the laws of mortality. I am not sure that at her age, with her short life expectancy, that she should deal with the hardships of sobriety. Perhaps an alcoholic would be able to weigh that-- whether the pain would be worth the gain given the age. Right now she beleives that she is happy enough, and that the major sorrow in her life is the loss of my Father with the concommitant lonliness, with which she is truely coping well. If I had to guess, I am unhappier about her state than she is. Just my guess. I really do not understand a lot about this disease. Thanks, Kai.
"No" is a complete sentence. If you want to, change it to "No, thank you". You are an adult, you have absolutely no obligation to defend your actions.
She remembers the discussions. She's doing this in order to open up the argument again, so that this time it will turn out the way she wants. You can't stop her doing this, but you do not have to play the game. If your arguing and explaining were to do any good, they would have worked by now. Reality is, she'll take a good hard look at here behaviour (maybe) once it has real consequences, and not before. Talk does nothing, so save your breath.
You are doing her more real good by refusing to be drawn nto the game and refusing to put up with bad behaviour - I know it probably feels like abandonment and betrayal, but it really is the opposite.
Just because you choose not to be around your mother when she's drinking, does not mean that you are a bad daughter. Nor does it mean that you don't love her anymore. This disease is progressive if not treated. At her age, she may not be ready for sobriety. (I don't know any alcholic who doesn't want sobriety. But being ready for it is a whole different ballgame.)
Recovery for me, means doing things that are in the best interest for me. It means taking back my life regardless if my A chooses sobriety or not. No is no. Bottom line. I choose not to be around people who drink and I don't owe anyone a justification or explanation. I am adult and I make the choices I want to. What anyone else thinks of me is none of my business.
Please keep coming back to us. Love and blessings to you.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty <--- the cat
__________________
It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
Hello Kai , the only suggestion I ahve is find some meetings for yourself . Al-anon makes it possible to have a relationship with a practicing A and set boundaries for yourself . Until she says enough and looks for changes herself nothing will change between you , accept what and who she is . Love her anyway but take care of yourself . You have said u will not travel with her anymore that is your perogative and a boundary when she brings it up just change the subject , explaining to her over and over again is a waste of energy and very frustrating for you . She knows why just dosnt belive u really mean it . Please find meetings for yourself you need support . Louise
Hi Kai, I agree that "No thanks" pretty much says it all, and if she honestly didn't remember the conversations, she would ask "Why not (travel with me, etc.)?" I also don't call my mom after 5 pm for the same reason (but since she also has dementia she doesn't realize it... bless her heart). One thing to consider is going with her to a doctor's appointment, if she will let you, and if you are interested and willing. Or just call and let the MD know, for her next visit.
People especially of her generation are oftentimes more receptive to their MD than their loved ones, and if her alcoholism is due to the late onset of a mental illness like depression, it could actually help. While she may not change, it will at least alert her doctor to the medical complications due to alcoholism that will show up in the future. My best to you! Caroline
