The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
First allow me to make clear the fact that I, like lilms, appreciate the job the moderators of this board do for all of us. Theirs is a thankless job for the most part, and one that is very necessary. So...thanks.
I have a hard time accepting censorship of any kind. I will qualify that by saying that cursing, demeaning, or belittling another member should probably not be tolerated, but AlAnon does use a slogan that goes something like this: "Take what you like and leave the rest." This sentence says a lot; it allows for members to voice disagreement, disenchantment, disillusionment, disparagement, and lots of other "disses" while reminding them that we all ought to be able to give our views without fear of recrimination. I would go so far as to suggest that we can advise, suggest or demand; it is up to the reader to decide what part of a response he/she "likes," and to, "leave the rest."
And so, permanently banning a participant, in my opinion, with the few exceptions I have listed above, is wrong. When we forbid any member voicing his/her opinion, we are moving ever closer to a place we do not want to go.
We must assume that each person here has the intelligence and the common sense to ignore that which he/she finds objectionable. We should not take on the task of saving people from themselves. This is not a "politically correct" forum, and we must not legislate lest someone's feelings be hurt. Once we do that, then in fairness, we'd be popping members off here left and right.
Just my thoughts. Now go ahead and have at me. I'll simply follow AlAnon's good ADVICE, and "take what I like and leave the rest."
As always I send best wishes to each of you,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I will stand by my great appreciation of the moderators. As I did state I have on occasion disagreed with decisions made. The permanent banning of a member would be one of them.
I like the "take what ya like and leave the rest" bit of alanon. I also have the good sense to know when to leave it alone. Otherwise I would probably often be saying "what the hell is wrong with you, run and save yourself". But as I said, I have good sense.
I find that in this venue people tend to be much more rude and blunt that in f2f meetings. That may have to do with the anonymity factor. No one here has a clue who I am unless I let them know. My thoughts are out there, I am honest with what I believe about Aism, it's effects, how I deal with stuff or don't deal with it but I have the luxury of anonymity here. Not so in f2f meetings. This is a small town, people know who I am, of whom I speak when I say my qualifier.
I have always believed that if you get a room of people together who have faced similar adversities you have a room which contains a wealth of knowledge. Wanna know how to deal with a drunk. Ask one who has gone before you. I would hate to see that lost. I love to read different views of some of this stuff. I can often get stuck in my head with my way of seeing things. This place gives me much to think about.
Again, I have great respect for the people who serve here. It I were the one doing this I can imagine bopping lots of peeps on the head.
as always, take what ya like and leave the rest, lilms
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Two things: 1. Recovery is a process, not an event.....and.... 2. You only get to go around once. Leave em laughing and make it worth your while
I agree with diva, but may I retain the right to have at her. lol smoinks diva.
Our job as moderators is to keep the m board safe. We are here to stop harassment, to do our best to make people comfy here.
When we get emails and pm's of a member upsetting people, we have to look into it.
It is never, ever easy to ban anyone. It is not one persons decision. It comes from the member in question acting in such a way that is not tolerated because it is keeping members from the reason they came here, to learn how to find serenity. How can we do that if the sight is not safe?
The chatroom I frequented before coming to MIP was distroyed because it did not have op's and it did not have moderators and it did not ban. It was taken over by someone who posted things that in my 50+ years I had never seen or heard before. It was sickening.... So I understand the need.
That being said Miss Diva, I do agree with you on this subject. I hate the thought of someone in need, someone who could be helped, someone who needs to be here being banned.
Although I too disagree with things posted here and like wise disagree with things that are said and done at my ftf. I have have learned to let it go. One wise old time alanoner told me early in my recovery...Hurting people hurt people.. They say things and do things that makes one wonder. The truth is though we didn't land here because we were the most healthy individuals on the planet though did we?
The stress of living with alcoholics and addicts in my life caused me to overreact to situations or react in a way that was not appropiate. I was so angry when i got to alanon I stepped on so many toes. I quit alanon one day saying "It is just a bunch of people sitting back making peace signs" lol I should have tried it. I am sure there are a few who ran into me in those early days that still have toes that are stinging...You people know who you are ...Thanks for putting up with me...I'm sure you left thinking you would take what you want and leave the rest ( me and my bs)
Anyway, I hate to see someone banned that could with a little time learn to settle themselves and play nice.
Thanks for your post Diva...
And thanks to the moderators...I am sure you have quit wearing open toe shoes.
A couple of thoughts about recent events that I have been brewing over the past few days...
--part of my recovery has been learning how to deal with conflict in a healthy manner. Living with the A, I learned that it was easier (if not safer) to hide from conflict and to spend my time smoothing things over and making it all "nice" instead of facing it head on. I have appreciated the fact that this board is a safe place to learn how to deal with conflict the way I should. It takes time, we do not all recover at the same time and some of us have to practice. That is why the speed at which threads have been deleted has felt somewhat paternalistic. I have not seen anything from the poster in question that has been anymore confrontational or potentially offensive than posts that I have seen from some others who regularly post here. Which leads to my second thought....
--there seems to be a fairly obvious double-standard at play. If the mods are going to delete threads and ban members then it seems only fair for the same rules to apply to everyone equally.
As always, take what you liked and leave the rest...
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
I have one question ? how come I miss all this exciting stuff . sheeeeeesh I too feel we all have a right to diff opinions after all it's what were working for isn't it , to be ourselves flaws and all ? I don't get involved in the gossip and contraversy in the board or room , it is just such a waste of my time . I am sure bann will be discussed at business meeting . I believe I know who it is and have read many of her posts none of which I found offensive , but thats just my opinion.
I do agree with you for the most part. Have I ever disagreed with you? But at the same time when a room becomes unsafe, or a member is being harassed by another member, something has to be done. I'm not sure what.
I do not know who this person is. Heck they could be harassing me, and I probably wouldn't know it! Sometimes I can be a bit dense. As for the difference of opinions, I like them. If there are posts I see from someone whom I do not want to read or respond to, I don't. The only thing I do have a question on is What makes a post be closed? Who decides that? What's the criterium?
I have to trust that John and the moderators know what they are doing. They certainly have kept the chat room safe. For that I am greatful.
Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
Wonderful post and wonderful replies, each and everyone!
I do have one question. Even though some times it seems it doesnt work this way, in the chat room any "permanent bans" are supposed to be voted on at a group consciousness meeting. Temporary bans are at the discretion of the op or ops in the room to deal with unacceptable behavior of an individual or individuals in the chatroom. And yes "unacceptable" as defined by the op's that are in the room. As an op myself, I can assure you I don't take this lightly nor do I do it without reluctance...except in the obvious situations when someone comes into the room for the sole purpose of causing chaos or if they are a spammer. Any time I have banned someone for 24 hours that was not an obvious case, I have done so after consulting with or being pm'd by others in the room for their opinions or have been informed of harassing behavior going on in pm.
Somewhere in my time here, it has been said to me that the chatroom and the board are two seperate "entities". Not sure why this is so. It's all MIP as far as I know. And as such I wonder if any "permanent" bans to people from posting on the board should not be discussed and voted on at a business meeting.
And I have heard the reasons of not all folks who go to chat come to the board and vice versa, but! the decision to ban someone permanently is pretty serious to me and everyone can click on the link to the chat room on this page and sit through a business meeting for something like this. And if they can't then at least others can. Not everyone can make it to a group consciousness meeting at my ftf groups either, but that doesnt stop the group from having them, nor does it stop those not there from understanding and abiding by the groups decisions. That's the way it works.
Just my thoughts.
Thank you all for your love and dedication for taking the time to make this post and the responses. And thank you to those of you who take time to be board moderators. I do not envy the job. I know it is a tough job that you do with love.
First, banning someone from here does not, in any way, ban them from alanon. This is not the only alanon board on the web, and then there are always f2f, literature, etc.
Not everything that happens on a site like this is public knowledge. People making judgements must remember that most of the action is going on in the form of pm's. I myself have received a pm that I consider inappropriate. I work on the administration of a another website (nothing to do with recovery) and see some of the kind of things that can go on behind the scenes. There are pretty stadard policies about banning people from websites, and, so far as I can tell from my limitied knowledge of what went on here (in the case I assume we are talking about) these seem to have been followed.
"Take what you like and leave the rest" yes, that is part of alanon. Funny, though, that seems to be the one alanon quote that is used here much more often than any other. I don't believe it gives us free rein to say whatever we feel like. This is an alanon board. It is not a "bitch about your husband" board. It is not an "advice to the lovelorn" board. By this I mean that people coming here and talking about their problems should be able to assume that what they hear from those already here has some relationship to the alanon program.
We here are the front lines of the alanon program, in this cyber age. Many of our newest posters, and even more of those who "lurk" have no other exposure to this program. All they know about the program comes from us. Now, obviously, we are going to disagree. We have had different experiences, we are different people, we have different approaches to life. But, our disagreements on this board should be confined to our approaches to the program. This particular thread is a good example of this. What we are discussing here, in effect, is "Our program is based on suggestion, interchange of experience, rotation of leadership. Each person makes progress in her or her own way and pace. Any attempt to manage or direct is likely to have disastrous consequences for group harmony." As we have seen, there are various viewpoints on the issue, and that's fine. What I do not think is fine is giving opinons that are in direct contradiction to alanon principles, and hiding behind "Take what you like".
I have seen advice given on this board, and statements made, that go in direct contradiction to alanon ideas - "What were you thinking? You know he's an A so why in the world would you go to a place where you know there will be alcohol?" in other words, "It's your fault that he drank". Yet that post was not deleted by the mods, it was allowed as part of the loving interchange.
A newcomer to this program has no way of knowing who here has years in the program and a solid base of serenity, and who is thrashing around, still deep in her sickness. Eventually, over a little time and reading a number of posts, it becomes clear. But newcomers are in despair, and don't have the best grip on anything in life, much less this place. Direct anti-program advice, and public hissy fits, do not do any service to those in pain, and that is what we are here for.
My husband is a mod on an AA board. He often remarks, when I speak to him about this board, that we have very light moderation compared to their AA site. Their's is probably necessary - they get a lot of active A's coming in drunk and being disruptive. Alanons tend to be quieter! However, some moderation is necessary, on any public website. People who ignore repeated warnings leave the moderators no choice but banning.
Lin couldn't have said it better. There is absolutely no way we could know the "whole" story, and I'm not sure that it's our right to learn all the details and judge it. Isn't that why we have moderators? This way we can continue to focus on our recovery and not be dragged into things that deter us from it.
That being said, I have no feeling about the person who was banned, I don't know the whole story and I'm not going to judge the OPs for doing their job.
Who was it who said that the "most dangerous thing we can do is nothing."
I am well aware that getting booted from this site does not boot us from AlAnon. So what if someone says something which directly contradicts AlAnon??? There are certainly enough people here who will land on you like fleas on a dog, and make sure the "offense" is corrected. Some people have had all the hugs and invitations to f2f meetings they can take. A swift kick in the pants sometimes works wonders.
I get very, very few PMs. When I do, they are usually always in support of my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Maybe those PMers do not want to support me publicly, and that's ok. I understand.
If AlAnon had not helped me, I would not be here; that is not to say I cannot use my own brain to form thoughts with which you might not agree. It is your privilege to disagree with me. Disagreement is healthy, and one should not be attacked for presenting an opposing view. I invite your disagreement. You should do like wise.
We can learn so much from each other kiddies, but that is not going to happen if voices are silenced.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Although I dont know this person "persay" other than reading some posts on here,and now I have been pmed by this person, and honestly he/she does not know what they have done. Perhaps the person has not had enough learning of the Alanon ways, and truly does not understand what the problem is? I do, however understand the necessity of the safety of the board, and that I will stand by not only for me but for all of us.
I thank you all for your well-thought-out replies. I respect all of you and will stand by your right to voice your opinions. I enjoy bringing up topics that make us all think. Keeps the mind active. But do remember this...we are all on a learning experience; that is what life is.
I may not always agree with some of you, but I love you all because we have a devastating life situation in common. SO let's hang in together no matter our differences, because that is important!!!!
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
It is unfortunate that in the online message board world, public examination of the evidence is rarely permitted. Those left behind have to take the moderators' word for it and accept their judgement that the offense was deserving of a ban. If the nature of the offense is such that the offending posts have to be removed (in the judgement of the moderators), then there is simply no evidence left for the rest of us to decide if a "crime" has been committed.
Remember folks, this is not a democracy. Nor is it anonymous (as we found out in spades a few weeks ago). If you find this forum valuable - and I do - just keep those things in mind.
I am very, very new but I want to say that while I haven't posted here ( maybe once a year ago) I have come back to this board and I just read and read because all of you are sooo kind and considerate of each other. How did you get there? How do you remain there? Is it the monitors who shore up your guidelines for you? In any evet, when I can get a clear and coherent thought together for a post I most certainly will do it here as I do feel safe here--even though I've just been reading your posts for comfort.
I don't know anything about the current controversy, but wanted to throw my two cents into this debate. In my time as a moderator on this board, I felt it was very necessary to ban some posts, and on very rare occasions to ban a member permanently. This board is for support and encouragement purposes. There have been occasions when people get on here with the wrong intentions, and are trying to hurt others, for whatever reasons. The "greater good of the board" needs to come before any individual's rights, needs, and/or freedom of speech. I adhere to the Al-Anon principle of "take what you like, and leave the rest", but also believe that this can be a cop-out at times. There is no room, or value, for abusive, personal attacks on this board or elsewhere, and that is where I tried to draw the line. On rare occasions, I got accused of "playing God" as a moderator, but so be it.
As an ostracized moderator from MIP, I would like to reiterate my thanks to all who do service on this board, and offer their time and best judgements on these situations. I think they all do stellar service, and this board would not be as safe and strong a place without them.
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I do agree with Diva about being able to post opposing views and yes even on occasion *gasp* advice. I find a lot of support and encouragement here and sometimes I find myself being called on my bs or behavior and that's fine too. Sometimes it's what I needed to hear even if it isn't nice. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you for posting this Diva. It is apparently something about alanon principles that needed to be brought out and talked about.
Everyones insights were great,every one of them.
The whole obstacle can be prevented by going to the person in pm or even on here, and asking, did you mean this? Or I found this hurtful or whatever and discuss the issue, not attack the person.
A lot of us will post things and someone will not take it as meant. That is human nature. So all we have to do is ask. geez Diva you and I bumped head lots in the beginning but we always talked it out and it was great. You have taught me so much. I love the ideas you bring.
I know if I get an email or whatever that I don't understand or I take negatively I will ask the person what they meant. We cannot see each others faces. Also we would hope that after we post here awhile we know each other enough to know we can just "talk."
It does no good to judge anyones post or comments. That does not help the problem. It just hurts both.
Plus it is not alanon. We first need to be kind. Least that is my way.
If you do see someone saying well you are with an A, what do you expect? Maybe pm or respond by saying, well maybe another way to say that is, Yes it is tough to love an A, but I have no expectations, it is a disease. We all need to be able to vent, that is a big part of alanon.
Almost everyone comes here and lets out the A disease pain. Then they are guided by you wonderful people to take care of themselves, change your focus, allow the A some dignity to help him or her self.
Diva it is a matter of respect to me. And i tell ya after seven years here at MIP I have found this the most wonderful safe place.
If you are bothered you can also go to a mod and talk it out and get help with how to deal with the post that bothered you.
Conflict is inevitable. When we face it straight on and listen, then say may I respond now, then you talk and they listen, nine times out of ten, it comes out positive.
All I know is we learn when things are tough. I know I have learned something. But I still stand that I want to be safe in MIP too. So maybe safe means this: From Courage to Change page 320,
"It was through going to meetings and the daily readings of Al Anon literature that I awakened to the fact that what other people did and said reflected on them, what I said and did reflected on me."
Isn't that cool. I like that. So I guess what I learned was partly is, I value keeping my integrity. And also will always humbly ask someone before I get upset and judge their post and hurt them.
I alanon has taught me not to respond to something irrational. You know l like when "someone" was being abused by a mouthy A disease, so she thru her huge cup of ice tea on her white wall..., and another time throwing salsa... gads you would think I could pick up a pillow or a shoe or something. lol
It took a lonnnnng time for me to get mad like that, and then it took me no time at all once I learned it was totally a disease talking.It turned into me visualizing a round face of like pink bubble gum going blah blah blah. who cares what a disase says?
anyhoooo hugs, great great thread diva, thank you!!!! love,debilyn
