The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
As my name implies I do really research Al-anon thoroughly, not only the literature, but also it's history and inception. The philosophy of its founder, his history, his story, his rationale, etc..
After all, if we follow a man, then Al-anon is a cult and thank goodness it is not because we don't follow a man, we follow a philosophy. I strongly encourage all of you to read the many many books out there about the history of Al-anon and AA, it is fascinating reading, really it is, better than most books out there. It is a fascinating case study of a man and his friends who basically changed the viewpoint of an entire nation and world. How an unemployed ne'er do well uneducated college drop out drunk did that is really a uniqe American story.
Anyway, researchers have uncovered the fact that Bill W. himself wrote the chapter "to wives" in the big book of AA and it is he himself who coined the phrase "sicker than the alcoholic"! I found that very interesting and actually humourous, as that sort of behavior is very very familiar if you have ever lived with an active alcoholic! Oh it is not THEM who is the problem, it is US, LOL.
Actually, unless there was a pre-existing underlying mental or emotional illness, people living with alcoholics are not "sick" at all. In fact, it is a sign of mental and emotional health to adapt to your surroundings and find a way to cope with what is going on around you, even if it is dysfunction. So, when the healthiest of the healthy people are thrown into a life with a sick addict, they naturally adapt. Sadly, since they are adapting to dysfunction and pathology their adaptations are "abnormal" to the healthy population. You normally cannot see it, since your world view has been schewed by living with such dysfunction, and that is why those living with alcholics may appear "sick" or abnormal to others.
However, once this person gets some help to once again RE-learn healthy coping mechanisms that work with healthy people, they are often FINE in a short period of time, espeically if they are removed from the situation which made them develop the abnormal adaptions they needed in the first place.
Once again, I am talking about basically healthy people, not those who suffer from underlying mental illness.
Now, the alcoholis may APPEAR "healthier" in their normal life as for most of them, their main concern is hiding their addiction. They normally have an ingrained selfish streak which makes them take care of themselves and their need to drink, and they don't care where the chips fall for others. Having children and not caring for their emotional needs, not being reliable, acting like an irresponsible rebellious adolescent as an adult is not "healthy" by an means.
However, as any psychologist will tell you, for long term alcholics, their problems are quite often INGRAINED and they will NEVER be totally OK or normal again. Their long term alcohol consumption has damaged every part of them, often permanantly. They have physical damage to their organs, emotional damage due to strained relationships, and often mental damage as repeated bouts of chemical poisoning to the brain causes damage, besides the often underlying mentall illness which sets them on such a destructive path. That is quite SICK my friends and a level of organic sickness which is hard to "beat".
According to AA, an alcholic will NEVER be well or free of alcholism, a very complex deadly and ugly condition, that compulsion to kill yourself in slow motion and often kill your loved ones through drunk driving , smoking while drunk and burning the house down perhaps, and kill the spirit of your loved ones with abuse and neglect.
That is VERY VERY sick my friends, and that level of sickness is usually permanant.
Am I sicker than the alcoholic in my life because an alcoholic once wrote that his wife was sicker than he was in his opinion? This in itself is open to debate. By all accounts LoisW was a very humble, kind, sensitive and loyal woman. She stood by Bill and worked a low income job for decades to support him while he drank up her paycheck, stole money for her, beat her up and cheated on her. That was in a time when divorces were hard to get, and scandelous, it was a time when wives believed the marraige vows, "in sickness and in health, for better for worse, in richer and poorer". Does this mean LoisW was "sicker" than her husband BillW because she kept her vows? Kept her word even when it was not easy?
Even after Bill W stopped drinking he refused to work a job and talked LoisW into supporting him so he could spread the word about his quit drinking program (later AA). Does that make her "sicker" than he was? To support the early days of AA? To work quitely on the sidelines, putting food on the table and paying the electric bill while her husband scoured the streets for homeless drunks to bring to her to take care of after she got home from work? Does that make her "sicker" to realize the importance of what he was doing and to support his efforts to help others in HER way?
Bill also continued to cheat on her long after he stopped drinking. So much for "honesty in all of his affairs". LoisW knew it and put up with it for the sake of AA, she knew it was "principles above personalities" and knew how important AA was for the country. BillW repaid her sacrifices by saying she was "sicker" than he was in print and writing the chapter to wives himself because his ego did not want her words in "his" book. Some scholars say he was afraid of what she might say about him? LOL! Familiar reasoning once again...when living with a long term alcoholic.
Even though he was no longer drinking, BillW was "sick" in many many ways until the day he died. LoisW's only "sickness" was perhaps being too self sacrificing and standing by her man until even he thought it was too much.
Bill transferred his addictive personality to smoking and womanizing, so was still very very sick even after he stopped drinking. He was just a man after all, a flawed, imperfect man.
That does not mean the MESSAGE does not have merit!!!!! BillW came up with AA when he was put in charge of the "quit drinking" program of a cult religious movement he was part of. He alone did not come up with the basic AA program, it was the work of people working together. BillW was so successful that he no longer wanted it to be a small part of a larger religion. He saw how well it worked and compassionately wanted to take it to a larger audience and did so right away. BillW reworked the religious part to apply to drinking and set off on his quest to start a program whose main purpose is to quit drinking with a spiritual aspect, so it stuck, LOL. In fact, scholars have uncovered the fact that Bill changed very little of this religious program to become AA. He saw that it WORKED and he did not want to mess with success...he knew the message was too important and would save too many people. He was a wise man in that way, rather than branch off and make up his own program and take the credit, he was moved by compassion for others to help others attain sobriety as he had so didn't change much. He had found something that WORKED when no one else had.
He did just that, with the help of his faithful wife. Without LoisW supporting him during those early years so he could build AA up and have time to go out and preach to alcholics about AA, I wonder if it would have even took off.
Now LoisW would be branded as a codependent, LOL. Well, thank the "codependents" in history for a lot of good things we have today, AA being one of them, LOL.
Al-anon came about as LoisW talked with other wives and they LOVINGLY supported each other, as women often do. Women are normally the nurturers in our world and just as we nurture our husbands, friends, children, and parents, we also nurture each other.
There is strength in numbers, especially for women, LOL. That is why Al-anon is such a good thing, it came from women's natural instincts to support and help each other through hardships in life. And that is what we do here. We live with so much pain, come here and vent and are loved through it. Although today, we welcome men into our midst also, LOL. That is one wonderful thing about our changing society, men don't have to pretend they don't have feelings anymore and can come here and give and take of the same nurturing spirit that women have shown each other for thousands of years.
The compassionate, unselfish, nurturing, and kind spirit of LoisW is alive and well in Al-anon today, thank goodness for me...and for everyone here.
Let's remember our founder and try to always be kind and gentle to each other. Not "diagnosing" illness in each other, but nurture each other, not be so quick to tell each other how "sick" we are, in fact "sicker than our alcholics". That did not come from LoisW...
That does not strengthen us, we need to help each other find our STRENGTHS!
Disclaimer... Of course should you suspect or know that you suffere from an underlying mental or emotional illness you may indeed be sicker than your alcoholic, and I urge you to seek professional help.
Alononer copyright 2007
This post is copyrighted material and is posted her with written permission from the author, any and all forms of reproduction of this post, whether in full or in part, without written permission of the author is strictly prohibited.
Wow, I really appreciated that, I love a little research. Now tell me please, because I never asked before, what does alanon mean? Is the root wor alano? And if so what does that mean? Maybe I should wikipedia it.
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I'm like a pinch of tea...put me in hot water and see how strong I can be.
As a recovering alcoholic, I do believe we make our spouses "sick". Maybe not sicker than we are, but sick all the same.
Why is this so?
1. She must emotionally change to deal with the AH.
This means that the original interaction between the couples changes...especially if the A becomes and true A during the union.
2. She cannot communicate with her spouce like before.
3. She must build a 'wall' of sorts to block the pain.
4. She becomes resentful due to the A and his actions.
I can go on and on having experienced this.
My wife has had to make many changes HERSELF in response to my own changes. Her mode of operation cannot continue as before because the environment has changed. Resentments, when deep seeded CAUSE emotional issues and defects that are hard to overcome.
The fact that BillW had some of his own defects AFTER being sober does not negate the facts.
Thank you for that thought provoking post. It has inspired me to go out and do some research on my own. Its an interesting topic "Are we Alanoner's sicker than our A's"? I guess it depends on the person and their journey and recovery. I think that revelation comes to everyone in their own timing, some it may never come at all and they will keep doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different response. My prayer: HP give me a teachable spirit and the ability to learn to overcome my flaws and to stop banging my head against a wall doing the same insane behaviors over and over again.
Peace, Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
Did you somehow miss this in the post about those living with alcoholics:
"Sadly, since they are adapting to dysfunction and pathology their adaptations are "abnormal" to the healthy population."
So, we agree! Totally, 100%, we just say the same thing in different ways.
And I also totally agree that BillW's flaws don't negate the message...maybe you missed this also:
"Bill transferred his addictive personality to smoking and womanizing, so was still very very sick even after he stopped drinking. He was just a man after all, a flawed, imperfect man.
That does not mean the MESSAGE does not have merit!!!!...He had found something that WORKED when no one else had.".
Actually I feel you have a deep insight into exactly WHAT unhealthy adaptations those living with alcoholics must make, thank you very much for sharing that with all of us. I think you hit the nail right on the head and I have learned more specifics from your post and I thank you for enlightening me and others.
Yikes! It's really hard to say. If you ask me to evaluate my mom and dad I would definately say the al-anon was MUCH sicker, the al-anon was the abuser, the rager, the scary one. The alcoholic was the gentle, funny, nice one, but both dealing with a major illness (not even knowing either of them were sick). So to me this statement is very true. However I don't think all cases are alike....kinda like all pregnancies eh? Thanks for the background info.
For those who want to know a little more.....Al-anon was founded by Lois, who by chance was Bill's wife. Her birthday is coming in March...I believe March 4th (correct me if I'm wrong) In one of my meetings we are suggested to quietly leave al-anon flyers in doctor's offices, schools, ect on her birthday to pass on the hope!!
Oh and if any of you want to read a kicka$$ flyer the best one IMHO is alcoholism the family disease....it's the brown one, it's awesome, keep it in your purse/pocket/briefcase and read it when your feeling a little INSANE!
The changes in my life (once accepting the program FULLY, not my own version) have been the MOST profound I've ever experienced. My wife and I still have issues, but they pale in comparison to how it was.
I want all the Alanon's to know my thoughts and prayers are with you just as much as they are for the alcoholic who still suffers. You are the rock in our life, yet we don't realize it. You are the love in our lives, but we can't see through our own self pity to embrace it.
As I learn more and grow more in my recovery - I can't say that I am very comfortable with the words "sicker than the alcoholic" but then "How Important is it?" comes to mind also.
For who am I to know or completely understand how sick the alcoholic feels - I can't imagine their pain - just as they can't imagine mine. If I have a broken leg and you have two broken legs - who hurts more? Is my leg less broken because it is only one, where you have two legs broken? Do you need help more than me? Not really, we both need help.
We, alcoholics, addicts, co-dependents, or al-anons are broken by alcoholism/addiction - Each one has suffered in a very unique way, but yet some of the pain is the same. Marred, scarred, wounded and beaten.
For me, doesn't really matter who is sicker - just matters that I try to reach to the depths of my inner being to clean out those harmful old behavior patterns and follow a new, happier way of life.
Just my thoughts, Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
I am going to have to say that yes! I was sicker than the alcoholic. Much sicker. I am seemingly normal. Here is the deal though. I have been dealing with alcoholism since birth. Did I know I had been dealing with it all that time? Not at all. It was a year after being in a program of recovery and working the steps that I realized......this wasn't just past boyfriends and husbands that I was dealing with.....my family too....my family still today. Wow. There was no real chance to have a "healthy brain". To my knowledge I suffer from NO mental illness. Did someone else's drinking and behavior completely consume me? You bet they did....and it changed the way I reacted to everything in my life. Work, school, friends, you name it. I apply the principles of the program "in all my affairs". Dealing with any body before recovery had a huge impact on my behavior alone. Prime example: I worked in the convience store business for a period of time. I couldn't stand selling alcohol. I couldn't stand the alcoholics that were coming in and buying it. I had this huge resentment against it. I didn't hide the fact either from the repeat customers that would buy a 6 pack come back 30 minutes later, and another 30 minutes later buying yet another 6 pack. Who am I to say #1 that there an alcoholic? Who am I to judge? Who am I to get livid over their appearence to purchase yet another? What gives me any God given right at all? Not a thing. Since recovery, anything past the end of my nose, is absolutlety none of my business. NONE. I point a finger at any one person....I have three pointing back on me. I could give you a list of all sorts of things I have done in my insanity that all comes back to a disease called alcoholism. There wasn't many that looked at the alcoholic in my life and thought or said Wow, that dude has issues.....no, it was me they looked at and said, "Wow, that girl has got some real issues". Sanity for me came when I quit trying to analyze everything. Quit trying to analyze what the program is about, quit trying to analyze the steps, quit trying to analyze what my sponsor asks of me.....and just let it happen and do the work. Get honest with myself. If I wanted it bad enough, I could be healthy. I had to quit analyzing and realize all I was, was "anal" from what I thought I was analyzing. Anytime I caught myself analyzing things, I knew I was being anal.....and it was stopping me from RECOVERY. I am also learning that everyone has different views and it is wonderful. We all cannot agree. If we did then whose program would be be working.....other than our own? Thank you for your research. I found it quite intriging. So, I shared my experince in this area because it was something I had A LOT of experience in, being sicker than the alcoholic.
One more thing.....my insanity can creep back at anytime. I am not cured of it....it has just been tamed. Others may be able to cure it.....but not me.
It occurs to me that the first time I ever heard about someone being "sicker than an alcholic" I thought "Oh there are definately worse things than being an alcholic." And indeed there are. What I hear from this post, and the previous post, is that somehow, with enough education and research, one will be able to insulate themselves from the effects of alcholism. What I'm also hearing is a very deeply hurt individual, who is so aghast at how the family dysfunction affected them that they are looking for difinitive answers. They are looking for solutions that fit into "nice, clean little boxes." In al anon we call this "distorted, absolute thinking." Somehow, it seems, the person who is posting these messages feels as if that by keeping things in "nice, clean little boxes;" by being "educated enough;" by understanding alcholism "enough;" one will feel "as if they are enough."
I am here to testify I have walked that path down and back and I have never found the fufillment that one is seeking by the means one is taking. I fully recall the hours I spent in libraries, reading 5000 page texts, solely dedicated to the physiology of alcholism and addiction, the theories of its causes and what enabled it to go on. Why it was that some people died of their disease and why it was some people caused in others death; why it was some people went bank rupt and why it was that others caused bankruptcy for their families; why it was that some people were neglectful of themselves and why it was others were neglectful of their families, their bills, their jobs, and everything else. The professionals have no answers. Alcholism and drug addiction are phenomena that are elusive, puzzling and paralyzing for the professional community because of how destructive they are. When I realize that the professional community, people who make a living studying the hell that I had (and continue to) live withare absolutely baffled and beside themselves with the reality that is alcholism, I had to find another way to believe that I was "enough."
So I tried al anon. I stopped analyzing the steps. I let myself make mistakes as I worked them. I stopped censoring myself in meetings. I cross talked. I gossiped. I was gossiped about. I got sponsors. I lost sponsors. I was a sponsor. I do sponsor. I read the literature. I used the literature. I still read the literature. I still use the literature. When I realized that professionals were absolutely baffled by the reality that is alcholism, I gave myself to be human and to use the love that is al anon to make the mistakes I had been terrified to make in my family that is alcholic. No one penalized me. No one chastised me. No one told me never to come back.
If no one has ever told you this, alanoner, I'm telling you this now, just like I was told when I was in your exact postion: You are loved. Please come back. Don't quit.
ZiggyDoodles wrote: One more thing.....my insanity can creep back at anytime. I am not cured of it....it has just been tamed. Others may be able to cure it.....but not me.
Love to all! Ziggy
LOL Yes me too. My insane thinking is never cured (even if I want to believe it is) But now I can at least recognize when it's insane vs sane. It happens to me more late at night. I will get some crazy idea/thought in my head and I'm tempted to wake my husband up to drill him with questions!! AHHH, yes that's very insane, but now I know that time of day is my weakness and I know not to re-act until I have slept on it, then if it's still bothering me the next day, I can address it, in a healthier manner!!
I am not going to add anything of substance to this thread. I will only say that I have found the original post and all the responses most interesting and informative. These are the threads I love to read; when various ideas and opinions are freely expressed to an accepting, non-judgmental audience. No one who has anything to do with AlAnon or has ever had anything to do with it is a prophet. Thanks all of you.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
When I first read this post of yours I was incredulous as to how much you THOUGHT you knew about me and my deepest thoughts and feelings by a post about the history of Al-anon.
Tiger2006 wrote: What I hear from this post, and the previous post, is that somehow, with enough education and research, one will be able to insulate themselves from the effects of alcholism. What I'm also hearing is a very deeply hurt individual, who is so aghast at how the family dysfunction affected them that they are looking for difinitive answers. They are looking for solutions that fit into "nice, clean little boxes." In al anon we call this "distorted, absolute thinking." Somehow, it seems, the person who is posting these messages feels as if that by keeping things in "nice, clean little boxes;" by being "educated enough;" by understanding alcholism "enough;" one will feel "as if they are enough."
However, after reading your other post I now myself have a deeper understanding of your point of view. I can tell by the way you write of your parents, how totally enmeshed you still are with them, that you are a young person although clearly not a child. You are obviously also a deeply sensitive person, as well as remarkably intelligent. People with your personality profile often fall into the trap of judging other people by their own point of view. In other words, you see yourself as very sick and deeply flawed and have attempted to use your intelligence and education to help yourself, but to no avail (yet, ), so you feel that others cannot do this either.
However, you forget that we are all individuals, and all are at different points in our journey, as well as starting off at different places. Some people have "head starts" in life and it just isn't fair but that is just how things are. Others have to overcome many adversities just to grow into adulthood.
I mentioned in my post that my philosophy did not apply to those who suffered from deep seated mental or emotional problems, yes, those people can indeed be very sick and yes, even sicker than their alcholics to already be extremely sick and then to deal with the horrible stress of addiction in their home. Just as unclean water and rotten food will cause much more physical harm to a person in already poor health, then it would to a robustly healthy person.
You, and others do point out an important point however, and that is that children who are raised with addiction in the home often are deeply disturbed and affected by it and yes can BE very sick, then marrying an alcoholic will only make them sicker.
I, like all of you, am shaped by my early experiences and in my case they were all good. My parents were not perfect, but as far as flawed imperfect human beings go, they pretty much were. Both were college educated and niether suffered from any addiction. They were pretty "boring" as far as most people were concerned. Neither drank or smoked or watched too much TV or gambled or swore. They pretty much went to work, paid all bills on time, and spent time with us, loving us and helping us grow. I pretty much had a "Leave it to Beaver" existance for most of my childhood. I had a "head start" that most people don't have, healthy parents who raised me in a healthy enrivonment with no abuse or neglect. Am I aware of what a blessing this was, YES!!! Am I grateful to my parents? YES!!!!
Does that mean it is all smooth sailing for me now, in my later years? NO! LOL! Yes, I had a great head start in life, yes, I can weather the storms of life a little easier than some others, since my brain was allowed to develop normally and in a very healthy way in such a loving and stable environment. But it has not shielded me from life's ups and downs. And, the pain of my own brush with living with addiction in my own acquired family. Thats why I looked to Al-anon to help me to cope.
I don't think my education, background, and experience give me all of the answers at all, if they did, I would open up a clinic and heal the WORLD and be as rich as Bill Gates, LOL.
But, has my many years of research helped me help myself? YES!!! We are all on our own individual journey's in life and on our own path and we each need to travel that path of enlightenment to improve our own lives. Of course I am not "done" yet, and I won't be done until I am dead, life is a journey of discovery, healing, learning, and growing.
However I will share this with you, the the extent that you feel the need to "diagnose" and reveal "for them" the sickness in others, is usually a good indication of the sickness within yourself. It is when you begin to see the STRENGHTS in others, that you recognize their own healing journey and growth, that you will be on the right path to your own healing. There is a very old saying...to an unclean person all things are unclean...in other words, it is human nature to judge others by your own personal experience. So, if you see a huge level of dysfunction in your own personal life, you tend to feel that others live with it also. You tend to forget that not all people are "sick" not even people in similar situations as you live in.
"Physician HEAL THYSELF" applies in Al-anon also. We should be here to learn FROM each other, not tear each other down by doing our best to convince everyone how "sick" they are since we feel that we ourselves are very sick. That in itself is a symptom of dysfunction, we judge everyone around us by our own poor self esteen and shaky view of our own emotional health, forgetting that we can LEARN form the healing journey of others, of only we could see it, rather than spend our energies attempting to convince them they have not healed at all, and are still mired in dysfunction.
I do have a background in child psychology and development and I know precisely the disastrous effects addicted and neglectful parents can have on the developing mind of a child, especially during the early years.
You live with so much pain dear, that you cannot comprehend that others do not...that is why you reach out with so much love and compassion always to so many and we all love you for that.
However, I do want to leave you with one thought, things CAN get better! Please try not to automatically assume sickness and dysfunction in anyone who has a different point of you than you do. What a depressing way to live life, thinking that no one can be happy, and if they say they are then they are in denial.
Due to your intelligence you have a vivid imagination and see things that are simply not there.
If I thought I had all of the answers, would I have spent so much time in Al-anon researching, reading, and learning?
As long as you spend so much time psychoanalyzing the thoughts and feelings of others, and "diagnosing them" attempting to convince them that they are sick and in denial and deeply troubled when they are not, you are not working on YOURSELF and you are the only one who can help YOU.
As far as I have read, there is quite a lot of telling others how sick THEY are and not a lot of self healing.
Wow I'm totally confused then. So, if I surmise correctly, you've had quite a through background in dys-functionalism and have personally experienced high levels of functionalism. So I'm rather confused then--usually when newcomers come to our board, they're overwhelmed. They feel as if their world is collapsing upon them and they need someone to bail their ship out for them now. They wish, rightly so, that someone had told them all the unwritten rules of life so they could avoid the potholes. (Me too! Sign me up for that class!) Having said all this, why are you here? Does someone's drinking upset you? In all 4 of your posts, all that has been said is, in summation, about the program as a whole, and moreover how this board should work in tandem with the program as a whole. Why are you here, if not to glean experience, strength, hope? Final note: I dated someone once who believed some of the thesis you espouse. Specifically, As long as you spend so much time psychoanalyzing the thoughts and feelings of others, and "diagnosing them" attempting to convince them that they are sick and in denial and deeply troubled when they are not, you are not working on YOURSELF and you are the only one who can help YOU. There was a reason he married an alcholic and I dumped him.
I tend to use the big book and any other literature that is "old" that is more than 10 years old with other literature both contemporary and more up to date theories on addiciton and recovery (and I have much to recover from). What I find incredible is that so many tenets of Al-anon are so wise and realistic and so helpful and I'm willing to adopt them these days rather than find something wrong with them. There are lot of theories in family therapy, bowen theory and more that any group is bound by lots of issues and that a family with a mentally ill member or an addict all suffer in time. I don't generally use terms like "sick" or crazy or even psychotic. I do think for me that there are levels of functioning though and I can often, like the alcoholic put on a great great show of functioning when in fact I'm not doing that well.
I don't know enough about Lois to really contribute that much to the discussion on why she stayed, what she did and how she enabled Bill. I am nevertheless grateful to her for her effort to develop al anon and to contribute to literature. I am grateful for the time she put in, the meetings she attended and all the work she put in to set up an organization that helps me so much today. I have read lots of biographies on Bill W though and I found them fascinating on some levels. In some ways for me seeing Bill as human and very very flawed made me more grateful for the major contribution he made.
When AA was started times were very different, therapy was not commonplace. Resources were few and far between. There was no real consensus about the role and issues of the alcoholic family. There was psychoanalytic literature on some issues but really not even a concept of the dysfunctional family. The battered child and acknowledgement of what abuse in childhood was wasn't written till 1970. I tend to read other literature about my issues in codependence and depression and ptsd rather than rely on one source.
I used to be a big book basher in my control heyday when I had a need to be the resource, the perfect person in recovery who knew most. These days I am more willing to see I find most addictions (whatever they are) cunning baffling and powerful rather than come up with what someone "should" do or "should" feel or "should" act. The Big Book was not published by a publishing company but essentially self published by the group of authors that means they didn't catch some typos, some grammatical errors and more. There are those issues in the any book whoever the publisher is but I used to leap on them and feel exasperated by the fact it wasn't a perfect reference. The Big Book was essentially "vanity published and edited" which means something in the publishing world but I don't think its meant anything to the millions who read it every day so I've had to let go of that issue too. These days I tend to focus on that despite all the drawbacks, all the errors in the book, all the issues that were never addressed way back then, it has its uses. Some people who have never read a book (including an old boyfriend of mine) can quote the Big Book all the time. I used to in my need to control and impress feel totally consumed with telling them what was wrong with the book, the program and more. Nowadays I am just glad it works for so so many people. ...however it does. I can appreciate it but I don't actually consider it the "bible" of my own recovery.
I re-read lots of books. I've probably read the Big Book quite a few times and I wouldn't object to reading it again because there is much wisdom there and some concepts that are helpful to me. I think there is a place for it in recovery, whosever it is, and my own recovery is now first and foremost for me. Nevertheless, for my own recovery, I cast a very very wide net of both contemporary literature, therapy and more.
Thanks you for the post. I found it a very interesting concept. My sponsor is always telling me "that's alcoholism" when I describe a situation, a comment, whatever. As I continue to learn more about the disease, I am able to better deal with it. That was what I was thinking about as I read your post. Bill W. was an alcoholic, not a saint. Yes, the AA program has saved lives, but just like the alcoholics in our lives suffer from a disease, so did he. I think this fact is often over looked, that he is put on some sort of pedestal.
In regard to some of the comments, I for one am glad you are here. I think that the NEWBIE title can be deceiving. It implies that you are new to Al-Anon. However, there is just as likely the chance that you are simply new to THIS board, not to the program. It is kind of like having someone with longevity in the program, someone use practiced the program in all of his/her affairs, walk through the doors of a f2f meeting. The assumption may be that the person in NEW, when if fact, they have just moved there, had a schedule change etc. I have often heard long time members of AlAnon say that they keep coming back because life is not perfect and nor are they. They are there FOR the newcomer, and for themselves. Fore it is in others that we can see our own progress.
Thank you for being here to share your ESH. If everyone came here to get ESH, no one would be here to give it.
I am grateful to Lois for starting the wonderful program of alanon, it has helped me greatly. And Bill helped many, many people with the AA program.
As far as the rest of their lives; i.e. Bill's cheating and womanizing, and Lois "putting up with" or dealing with (whichever term you prefer) Bill's "flaws"........to me that is only taking their inventory. Something we should not be doing if we are working on ourselves. All of those things in their lives are really quite irrelavent to the programs themselves. It is beyond me why anyone is focusing on those parts of Bill's and Lois's lives. Who knows, maybe they weren't comletely working their own programs......or maybe this just proves everyone works their own program......not one way of doing things will suit everyone. To each their own.
This also applies to just how "sick" a person may become when dealing with an alcoholic. Everyone handles things in their own way...some better than others. Yes a good foundation (childhood) helps, but it is not a rule of thumb. Some people that are very "healthy" to start with and have a good foundation can sometimes go down faster than a person that may have underlying issues to start with and/or a wobbly foundation. The "healthy" person having never had to deal with such things can be totally blown away by all that is involved with a dysfunctional life. Bottom line......we are all individuals and dealing with the disease of alcoholism affects each and everyone of us differently. There is no right or wrong in how we work our programs as long as we are getting "better" and finding serenity and peace in our lives.
I have a tendency to intellectual/analyze/disect everything in my life, and everything that I learn in recovery. Two things I've learned in program that prevent me from doing this all the time:
Keep It Simple
Take what YOU want and leave the rest
I try to apply these to things I read and hear in the program. Yes, it's good to question BUT my thinking becomes even more distorted and I have trouble making decisions when I over-think everything that I come across.
I find it not very useful to generalize - we have ACOAs here, who have been fighting the effects of this disease since birth, we have those who have been dating 6 months who are starting to wonder about how much their boyfriend drinks - alanon will be a very different experience to those extremes.
I have heard enough stories about people who came to alanon to get strength to leave the A in their lives, and then dropped the program, only to be back 5, 10, 15 years later, after picking another just the same, to know that there is more going on than just a poor innocent victim and a big bad alcoholic. I know that I brought my own stuff to the party - I was part of the train wreck.
If any members have thoroughly done their own fourth steps, talked it out with a tough sponsor, and feel that 'sicker than the alcoholic' in all its guises doesn't apply to them, well then good for them. Has nothing to do with me, really.
Wow, what a terrific way to start the day!!! This thread is very interesting reading. For my 2 cents, I think it is an important reminder that we have not all had the same experience. I think Diva refers to it as the "cookie cutter", and this feeling that those who have been in program for a long time "know" what you have been experienced. The truth is, none of us can "know", and regardless of all the similarities we may share, we are all very different indeed. Tiger, I think that may be the reason this has left you confused. As you said, most of the newcomers you see are completely overwhelmed, so you may be used to them needing guidance and nurturing. To be honest, this assumption about newcomers and what they need actually put me off to alanon for a long time. I was looking for information, not validation. I found it weird and a liitle spooky that everyone "loved me" so much right from the get go. But then, somebody told me to take what I like and leave the rest.... a lightbulb went on for me. I tried to look at it objectively. I found that this phrase works!! Then I found this awesome website, and realized that many many people have been so affected by the addiction in their lives that their own self image and ability to love themselves has suffered a great deal. I think what Alanoner said holds some truth, that those who felt that way when they found alanon expect that because that is their experience, it is everyone's.
I really don't have much to add, but wanted to chip in a couple pennies.
AA and Al-anon have evolved into what they are today. As far as I know (and I like to think that I know quite a bit, as I've done much research through my journey), the TRUTHs about the programs are what make them successful. Through working the steps, we have the opportunity to improve and grow, individually and as a group. We are responsible only to ourselves and our work. Our work determines our success. It is work.
Anyone can go through the stepwork, doing, saying and even understanding the meaning of the work. But without believing, having faith, and having a goal of betterment of ourself (specifically EGO), we will not progress. I've posted before on GENUINE character and integrity. Be true to yourself and others, and the world is your oyster.
I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. Dysfunction is all around us. Not just our A, but society as a whole. Through Al-anon, as it is presented to me today, I find serenity and revitalized strength within to conquer my everyday dealings with dysfunction.
HP can decide where the credit can be doled out, it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. Credit to BillW, Lois, my family group, this website, John, Tig, Alanoner, Debi, Diva, Rita, Mare, Ally, Jerry, Rtex, Drucilla, Irish, RainyJ, Fi, Ja, Jewel, DebiLyn, Zig, Shad, etc etc etc; HP'S BUSINESS. My credit, confirmation, affirmation comes to me in the form of smiles, laughs, and genuine happiness.
Brightest Blessings
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
Well said lin and cj. We all have a common purpose. There is no mistake in that. We all are at different places in our recovery and NO BODY'S pain outweights another. The program is a program of honesty, honesty to ourselves. The steps just do not work if we don't get total and real honesty within us inorder to recover. "May the peace of the program grow in you, one day at a time."
I get along with people in program. The program is the same, it's 12 steps. Whether it's alanon, AA etc. The tenents of program encompass so many healthy ways of living.
What I find amazing is listening to A's. So ofter what drove them to drink, the underlying issues, are exactly what draw Alanons to A's or what drives an Alanon to behave as they do. There is a reason that children in an acoholic home are purplexed at watching the sober parent act crazy. They don't have a substance to explain the behaviors.
I think being an Alanon is akin to a mental illness. There are biological and environmental components to many diseases. An A is genitically predisposed to being an addict. That doesn't guarantee it will happen. The environmental patterns do teach us how to behave. I agree it's an adaptation. BUT, I don't agree when you take the Alanon out of the situation tey adapt. That doesn't explain why so many Alanon's come from Alcoholic homes and get into relationships with A's, or have relationsships with A after A after A (substitiute any addiction).
The ability to 'adapt' to a normal situation doesn't occur. There is injury to the mind and soul and the same unhealthy behaviors continue.
Whether or not one is sicker than the A is a personal decision, imho.
edit: I forgot. I wanted to add that I also believe that many of the patterns of behavior are not adaptations necessarily to an addict or alcholic. ACoA (non Alanon Adult Children) welcome members who are the adult children of any dysfunction in the home. There may be other trauma's in the home that are not addiction or compulsive, and we often develope the same coping mechanisms and traits.
Our coping mechanisms and adaptations as you call them are natural. They come from natural feelings and how to deal with the situation. Take for example fight or flight. It's a basic instinct. What I believe tho is that I take these traits to far at times or other times use them at inappropriate times. And there are many people that I can find in Alanon, who's ESH is similiar to mine, even AC's who haveing lived in an active situation for 20 years.
Bob
-- Edited by bobump at 13:37, 2007-02-10
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
Thanks for this post.It's time Lois is given the recognition she deserves.
I think I agreed with everything you said.I was born in the early 50's.I married at 17 and tho I am sure at the time the vows did not mean anything to me,I was a teen and just wanted to get away from home, as an adult I have tried to honor them.I have always believed in God and during my life have turned to Him for comfort often.The older I got,the more important it has become to me to do the right thing and live to please God.
I grew up in an alcoholic home,my father,but my parents divorced when I was 9.The rest of my family...3 brothers and 3 sisters are all alcoholics.I have been through crisis after crisis,drama,turmoil,fights,worry,fear,anger,despair,etc,etc...mostly from my family but some also from my AH.Whenever I tried to talk to my family about my marital problems their advice was always to leave him.I had never lived on my own,didn't think I could make it without him,and had such fear of abandonment.Also I had no friends and never felt safe around my family.Leaving just was not an option to me.Also, I always believed things could get better in my marriage if I just worked on it enough and tried to make him see what was wrong.
I have always tried to be there for my family in time of need,finding myself making excuses when I just couldn't take it anymore then feeling extreme guilt for not being there.Those occasions were rare,I ususally just did what I thought I was 'supposed' to do..take care of my family.And my husband.
I am not trying to sound like a saint here,however,I cannot see how my actions were those of a sick person.Sicker than the a's?? Distorted by them,abused by them,protecting myself from them,but sicker? I do not think so.I admit to having fits of rage and anger which is certainly not healthy,however I learned much of my behavior from my extremely codependent mom and my alcoholic siblings.I am next to the youngest in age.
I am also glad you pointed out the physical damage alcoholics suffer,the alcoholic poisoning and the brain cell damage.I have read that the alcohol destroys brain cells which never come back.I assume I still have all my cells,I do not drink and have never smoked or done any drugs.That is real physical damage...to their brains.I don't see how my dysfunctional behaviors can compare to that.
So, to sum up, I do not think we are sicker than they are.As you pointed out in your disclaimer,some of us may have physical or mental disease and and actually BE sicker,but barring that,we are not sicker IN MY OPINION.
I have stayed with my AH for 37 years.Tried everything I knew or heard to make the marriage 'good'.Accepted his flaws and quirks as I thought a good wife should.Tried to change all my flaws and quirks to make him happy.Stood by him thru all his changes,business failure,bankruptcy,job loss,attractions to other women,even a separation while he persued another woman.Some of it was fear,some of it was love,some of it was codependence.I lived in a fog.I lost myself.No one asked me to..it just happened because I couldn't have a self and still get along with everyone in my family.
Now,after staying with Alanon for the first time in my life,and really working it,I have a self.I am making choices and setting needed boundaries.My life is less stressful and I am happier.I have started carving out a new life for myself.My AH wants a divorce as he has found someone else.We will sell the house and split.In my mind I still think we could have worked on it.I still think if HE had tried it could have gotten better.He does not want to hear that.He says he doesn't love me and there is nothing to save.I care about him.I think I always will. I see the differences,however I was always willing to compromise and always would have been.Is that SICK? I don't think so.In a world where so many people have forgotten how to do the right thing it may appear sick.But it is actually the responsible thing.I will always be there for him.Will I take him back? Probably not.He has wanted away from me for so long I am finally giving up the fight.I have just reached the point where I want more.I want love and respect and trust.I don't think I will ever have that with him.
Lois did the right thing.She stayed by him and supported him long after some women would have given up and dumped him.Was it sick? Or was it love,codependence,honoring her vows.
. So to me this statement is very true. However I don't think all cases are alike....kinda like all pregnancies eh? 
Thanks for the background info.
