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Hi. I'm not sure if this is a question for this group, but I have no one to ask. I've moved and am no longer in touch with the AlAnon F2F group I had like before.
I believe my spouse is in a major depressive episode. For weeks now (well it's been building up for awhile but now its acute) he cries every day, he can't do anything more complicated than play a video game, complains of headaches most days, all day, he gets into fights with everyone .... I could go on, but one only need read the symptoms of depression on any website and there is my AH. Strangely enough, although I've seen more alcohol around our house/car than ever before, I think he might be too depressed to finish his drinks. I always find them unfinished, the ice melting all around. Yesterday I did find him passed out on the floor, but considering how everything has been going I'm actually surprised this was the first time in a long while.
Just like with the booze, he refuses to get help. At least he will now say that he's depressed (versus "everyone else is stupid and against me"). He got into major fights with his own side of the family which only made things worse. So far he and I are doing ok because I sided against them. (I will have to say they really did cross the line in an unhelpful way. They are related to him, you know.) But eventually he finds a reason to be angry with me because, well, he hasn't gone to work in ages and so he's around all the time. He's self employed so it's not noticeable to most people but our house went into foreclosure until I saved it. Now we're trying to make it a rental property, and are living somewhere smaller. He says therapy is for women. (I can't make this nonsense up. Seriously.)
So... once again, I'm stumped at what to do. Is there a "spouses of depressed people" group like Al-Anon? Do I do the Steps, but just switch out "depression" for "alcoholism"?
I try to keep the peace at home. But every day, my frustration grows. It's like replaying a movie I've already seen, already don't like ... I've tried to detach myself, but we live in the same house now much more than we used to and I just worry so much about what to do with my kids. I feel like I should say something to them, like, "daddy is having a hard time, we just have to be patient", but what the heck would that mean to an 8 year old? I want to tell them, "it's going to be ok, mama is going to make sure of that" but heck, we know that's a lie. Daddy has screwed up plenty of times already. I can't control him (see, I did learn something). I just have to manage me. And once again, I'm floundering.
I looked up stuff on the internet, but every website suggests I should try to get him help. But what do I do when he refuses? How do I survive this "episode"?
I'm not (yet) afraid he's going to hurt himself, or the kids. Next week I am slated to go away for work for 2 weeks. It should be the most exciting thing in over a year but I am worried about my kids being exposed full time to his mental status. We need the money quite desperately so there's no ditching the trip. (Not to mention it involves international flights which aren't refundable). I just hate for them to see this. He's already a crappy role model even before this, but wow, now this is just great.
My sorrow that he has this illness (yet another) is being eclipsed by my frustration. I have returned to my fantasies of wishing he would drive into a tree and we could be rid of him. His refusal to get help makes me nuts, but then I try to remember the "let go and let god" part kick in. What really happens is that I just end up cementing my distance from him, and filling the distance between us with ugly thoughts.
If anyone has walked this mile before, I'm all ears... (or screens?)
-- Edited by Fedora on Friday 17th of August 2018 12:55:47 AM
Aloha Fedora...one of the very many things I learned about alcohol in college was that it is a "Liquid depressant". It depresses several ways and emotionally is but one of them. If he drinks, no matter the amount...he is consuming a chemical that depresses his mind, body, spirit and emotions. Keep coming back. (((Hugs)))
When I listen to alcoholics they talk about how low they feel and depression is a word ive heard a lot but it seems to me that mostly when they get recovery for their alcoholism then there is no depression. Just my take on what Ive learned but I'm not an expert. I imagine there is some sort of clinical depression to do with the body but an alcoholic is full of resentment anger bitterness self pity etc and it looks a hell of a lot like depression. Its a disease of the mind body and spirit. Either way whatever label his behaviour comes from the reality is its very hard to live with without proper boundaries.
I love Alanon and it tells us that we cant sacrifice the group for one person so If I were you I would not put this mans life, needs, illness above everyone else especially the kids. Hes a grown man, alcoholism/depression whatever he chooses to call it, its no excuse for bad behaviour ever and its no excuse for not seeking help for himself. If hes angry at people, fighting with them then hes exposing you and your children to fear. If hes passing out crying etc for everyone to see then hes exposing you and your kids to misery and uncertainty. Of course we want to show those we love our kindness and patience and understanding but we need to have those things for ourselves. Our families welfare is very important. Often, the kindest act is to say no, Im not putting up with this anymore. For example, if hes crying every day, this can be a very manipulative act, dont stay in the same room with him while hes doing this. Tell him you will talk with him later when he feels better, try not to feed this behaviour. If he or you thinks this sounds harsh or cold then offer to help him find services or support preferably AA. Apart from that taking part in this type of behaviour feeds it, encourages it to continue on and on. Same goes for any angry displays. Dont stay for that nonsense if you can help it.
He sounds unstable and displaying unacceptable behaviour. Its up to you to get some perspective on your situation for your sake and your kids. Alanon is where you will get it. Working the steps is never a waste of time. Step 4 could reveal your own inside motives for accepting this situation. As for leaving him with the kids, sounds like a total nightmare for them and for you. Why not get them looked after by someone who could give them peace from this man for a while and you go enjoy yourself. I truly hope you get some relief from this.
(((Fedora))) - all I know about my own experience is that when one has mental health issues and addiction issues, it's very difficult for a professional to treat with an unwilling person. Both of my boys exhibited signs of depression and other MH issues. It was a challenge to know what to do and where to go as they also had addiction issues. I am no expert, but do know that they are both much more stable when they are substance free.
I do know that no matter how painful it is, we can't carry anyone to help, we can only carry the message. I am sorry that you've moved from your group which has affected local support. Lean in here as much as needed and I'm sending prayers and positive thoughts your way for all in your family!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
This is the disease of alcoholism doing it's thing in your husband.
I'm only going to put this out there since in another thread, it was suggested to someone whose husband seemed to have hit rock bottom to call your local AA and ask them to have a couple guys come talk with him. BUT, from the sounds of it, your A might not be receptive there, either. But know AA is around to offer some help if need be. Just watch your motivation, however, in calling them. If it's to get the A to change, then it's time to rewind back to step 1.
I know what it's like to move and have to re-build your Al-Anon support group. It was difficult for me, and mostly it was my own doing. I kept walking into new groups with a lot of judgment. "This is not how we did it in Hawaii!" Forgetting that I'm sure how Hawaii did things was different from how Colorado did things, and how Illinois does things, and California, and New York, etc. And I'm not talking big massive unhealthy differences (like someone controlling the group), but just little things like saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting instead of the Serenity Prayer. Or doing business announcements at the beginning of the meeting instead of at the end. Little things like that threw me off.
However, I think most of what threw me off was just culture shock in moving from a small, intimate town to a big city. People DO behave differently out here than in a small town, so I had to learn what that looked like and then work on myself where any sort of resistance came up.
When I finally was able to just let go and let God, I found myself participating in a wonderful home group that is supportive and does fellowship, as well.
I hope you can find some new F2F Al-Anon groups and build back in that support you deserve.
Drinking and depression can be incestuous cousins, brother/sister, whatever you want to call it. My AW had both and spent time using both as an excuse for the other and that was her reason to not seek help, treatment, get clean and sober, recovery, etc.
In my experience, and with my wife, the bottom line was -- she refused, and more specifically, did not want to, get help. Period. End of story. So what could I do about that? I don't know...let someone tell me and then I'll know, LOL. In my experience...there was nothing I could do about that. That's what alanon teaches us. My wife had every reason in the world for not seeking or wanting help. I call them excuses and denial.
In your case, your husband is an alcoholic...so, go to alanon meetings. Everything you described screams alanon.
How do you get someone help who doesn't want it? OK, you get the help, and he refuses...what do you do then? I don't see any choices or options. Alanon taught me to be there for my wife in a healthy and supportive way -- but to stop trying to force my will, my solutions, and help, onto her...because she didn't want help!
The alcoholic or depressed person in this case will NOT get help, and will NOT quit, unless and until they want to. Period. So, we go to alanon and work on ourselves. We abandon the efforts -- of trying to help them get better, get help, trying to fix, cure, control, trying to get them to want it, etc. It us up to them.
Go to meetings. Get a sponsor. Start doing the work, on YOU. It works if you work it, so work it, you're worth it.
__________________
Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
Also, in my experience, when my AW started suffering from depression -- I'll tell you a big mistake I made. That mistake was -- trying to figure it out. What I mean was trying to figure out why she was doing what she was doing, why she wasn't doing this, or that, why she was behaving a certain way, why she was drinking out in the open, and then hiding to drink, and trying to figure out why she was depressed, and which came first, and so on and so on and so on. Yes, she didn't want help so there was no getting her help. I couldn't force her.
Alanon is a program for us. Not the other person. The program helps us. Not the other person. I know that when I was consumed by all of this -- it was then more than ever that I needed local, face to face meetings, and feet on the ground support! My world was not going to be rescued on a website, but that's just me. My sponsor lived 25 minutes from me. I saw him several times a week at meetings, met with him before, after, on off days, etc. I did my readings several times a day, and the best thing I ever did was 90 in 90...90 meetings in 90 days!!! The best thing I ever did!!! That saved my life...and after I did that...I got better and I was better. And that stayed with me...I kept going back and I remained healthy. Today, alanon, for me is a curriculum for living.
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
So Glad you are Here, So Much Wonderful Support here till you can Safely find your New Home Group... This disease is Definitely Cunning and Baffling... and Major Manipulating from my Experience as well..
I'm a Double Winner, as I Got in Al-Anon and Then Got Sober... I Don't have ESH on what you Can do for your Husband, but I would say Working your Own Recovery, Like "Al-Anon" would be such a Blessing...
When I got here, I was So Angry with Resentments, and Wishing the A's would Just "Hit a Tree" and Leave me Be, that I Needed Someone to tell me it was OK to have these Feelings, and I wasn't Alone... But due to their Disease, I was Stuck in it pretty Deep... And My Disease truly didn't help either... What Did help was I Got busy... I Started Taking care of Me, and My Son... I Started Keeping my Focus on Us and not them, and if I Didn't have to Engage with them I didn't till I knew I was Strong Enough to do so... We Spoke in Passing, I Did My Best to be Kind, I never ask them for Anything...
I had to Learn how to Take care of Me, because I was So Busy taking care of Everyone else, I Couldn't even tell you What I liked or didn't like to do. I found that going for walks in time of Stress Helped me... Taking my Camera along and Finding something Pretty to Snap a Picture or two of helped remind me Beauty was out there, all I had to do was Find it... And then I would Plaster My Walls with Little Quotes, "Reminders per-say" Happy Pictures, Things that Made My Heart Happy... I Even went as Far as Removing ALL Family Pictures from my Living Space till I knew I could Handle Looking at them with an Open Heart again... I NEEDED Change... and A lot of it...
A Dear Friend in recovery reminded me Often that the Definition of Insanty was: "Doing the Same thing Over & Over & Expecting a Different Result"... I Need to hear that Often as I Was Stuck in the Same Continuing Rut... Keep these Reminders around me helped... I had Bracelets I Wore that said "Easy Does it!" "Keep it Simple" and I still to this day have "Keep it Simple" pop up every time one person calls me... As a Reminder that when dealing with them, I have to Remember their Disease EVERY time I Answer their call... It all Helps... You will Find your Feet again... Just Remember to Put you On the List of things that need Taken Care of... And Go at it One Day/Moment at a Time...
Thinking of you Prayerfully as you Move Forward... Good luck on your Trip, I hope that Not only Business Happens but maybe a Little Time Out for you from time to time ;) Embrace the Moments that are Meant for you, and Remember HP is wrapping you in a Hug :)
In my experience, leaving drinks around unfinished means they've had so much to drink that they can't even remember that there's more drink. It's not a sign of drinking a small amount. It's a sign of drinking an incredibly large amount.
As others have said, depression goes hand-in-hand with alcoholism. And treating it involves giving up the alcohol, which is one reason he's refusing to treat it.
I don't know how old your children are? Are they old enough that if he passed out, they can take care of themselves? Also in my experience, passing out while being on childcare duty is something that alcoholics do, even though they love their kids a lot. Especially when the overseers (the non-alcoholic partner) is outof town. The alcoholic is no longer in control of his actions. Also, does your alcoholic have to drive them anywhere? School or anywhere? I know that money is tight and you may think that hiring someone to drive them or look after them is something you can't afford. But consider if you left them in charge of someone who's drinking too much and they were hurt - or worse. Would you be able to forgive yourself? If someone said, "I have a great caregiver for your children, he'll take care of them 24 hours a day. Oh, but also you should know he's an alcoholic and he'll be hung over every day and get in arguments with people, and he might pass out. That's okay, right?" Would that be okay? Would you accept that offer?
I had a small child and only my A to help look after him, so I know how hard it can be. Take good care of yourself.
Thanks, everyone. Once again, coming here is like finding a little island on which to rest in an ocean of challenges.
I hadn't thought of depression being just another stage/presentation of alcoholism. I guess I'm not surprised about that, just sad.
It was a relief of sorts to think, I'm not going to try to ask him to get help or whatever. His zoo, his monkeys. I just gotta manage me (and the kids.)
In response to Mattie's query - my kids are 8 and 11. They do pretty well for themselves. This year they have been staying at home without sitters whenever the grown ups are out. (It's a cost savings for sure, but also they are old enough to manage.) One of the nice things about where we live now is that we're in very close proximity to neighbors and I know that if something doesn't feel right they'll go to them. (They did once, because of a storm; and another time because they were frightened about some animal (or what they thought might be an animal). I think they would be ok if dad passed out in front of them. (Well, that's a relative term, but at least I can say they wouldn't starve to death or anything - they can feed themselves. That is just pathetic to say but its true.) Also, thanks to school bus, nobody has to drive them anywhere. I have already arranged for sitters to take them to and from their after school activities when I'm on my trip so dad should not have to drive them anywhere. (And we usually leave them at home when we go grocery shopping as it is.)
Earlier today he was asked to leave a restaurant by the manager. I wasn't there (he's not in our city right now; he's where our old house is), but I can picture it. I remained pretty detached. I'm not even sure I said I was sorry. I think I just said "oh". I think mostly I was thankful that he didn't have the kids with him.
I think just even getting on this board gave me a tiny bit of courage because earlier tonight I finally told him (on the phone) that I would like him to cut off contact with his family bc they are toxic. I told him that I felt he has a problem, and while I was ok with managing it between us, I don't need outside people making it worse. I told him flat out I was worried about the children not just on my trip, but the little one has not been eating almost at all since early July - which is when things really started to get bad at home with dad. My little guy was always my "good eater", but as every week has gone by he eats less and less. I told him that I think he's picking up on the stress at home and while I couldn't prevent a bad day from happening, I really wanted to try and minimize the chances that outside triggers would get my AH going down a bad place in front of the kids while I was out of the country and could not comfort them. He seemed surprise to hear this. He didn't say anything. Which was fine with me.
I don't know what he's going to do about all that, but I'm not going to spend more energy wondering. And I decided that I won't ask anymore. If he does it, whatever. If he doesn't, whatever. I said my piece / peace and for today, I'm done.
I actually left the kids at home this evening and came to my office to work (and to check in here, I will not lie, ha ha.) I love my work, and that's a good thing. We're in the middle of reorganizing things because of money and normally this kind of work bores me to death but this afternoon I just lost myself in the numbers and the tidyness of a spreadsheet and that felt good.
I know you all know this, but just being amongst people (even if it's cyber community) who know what it's like to wish your spouse would die is huge relief. Not a happiness (why should we be in this situation?!) but knowing other people have walked this road and managed to get to a better side at some point is major.
(((Fedora))) - I hear you and can relate - coming to MIP and sharing or reading is a lovely part of my daily program routine! I also can relate to work and spreadsheets - I do love order, logic and answers - spreadsheets fit that bill well. Keep coming back - gr8 to see you again!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
John we do not give advise in alanon or on this Message Board. instead we ask members to share their ESH so that others can decide what is the right action for them
Welcome to MIP John Doe - glad you found us and glad you joined right in. I am a double-winner - AA & Al-Anon, and there is no such thing as ex-alcoholic. There is active and there is recovering, but no ex.
My experience is that recovery does gift the one working it with a different attitude and outlook on life - either side of the rooms. Most I know in AA who are active in their recovery have been able to manage other mental health issues. I have never been diagnosed with depression, so have no personal experience with the clinical term/diagnosis. I can say that I am happy, joyous and free of the disease through recovery - 30 years and counting.
I hope you can find the same peace in your recovery program too. Keep coming back.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
When my RAH first hit bottom, he cried consistently for at least 3 to 4 weeks. Much of this time I was not with him but he was definitely calling. I had put him out because I knew he could never get well as long as we were under one roof. I have always loved him but I have definitely not liked him at times.
Depression can be extremely serious and your AH may need professional help. You can most certainly mention that the depression is not his fault and tell him that there are doctors who can help. In his current state of inebriation, you may even have to go so far as to find a few reliable physicians and write them down so that he knows where to start. It is highly unlikely that he will go to an appointment if you make it. I dont believe giving him a list of physicians to choose from is doing the work for him, because I feel it is difficult for a true alcoholic, in an inebriated state, to follow logical steps to find a good physician. Only he can reach out for the help he needs. Of course, if he becomes a danger to himself or others, you should feel comfortable in getting assistance. You can do this by reaching out to hotlines which are listed in almost every phonebook and certainly on the Internet. I did! Of course, I went too far as usual, but that is my error. I am simply saying that if your motives are true and honest and you do the things you do for the right reasons, then you are doing what has to be done. His behavior does affect you and does affect your child or children. Of this I am certain.
Depression and alcohol...chicken and egg...cause and effect...shield and sword...and so on.
I went through a phase of trying to figure out -- and praying -- that my wife's drinking was because of depression, and/or other mental issues...and convinced myself that she ONLY drank because she was depressed. "Only drank because she was depressed" simply as a phrase or explanation is an oversimplification in my opinion...although I am sure it's true for some people. However, I prayed that was it and eventually convinced myself that was it...and alanon taught me that was me being in DENIAL. It was me making excuses, rationalizing, vacillating, etc.
Perhaps my wife did drink in part because of depression, but at a certain point, whether she suffered from depression or not, she became an alcoholic. In the end, it turned out she did not suffer from depression. I do know that for me -- the more I tried to figure this out, the more I drove myself crazy. It was this never-ending search, thought process, mental exercise, research, and so on...of me trying to help, better, and fix the problems...and all the time neglecting to see the fact that my wife did NOT want the help. My wife didn't even see there were any problems. AND, when she finally did see their were problems, she minimized and trivialized them. She did NOT want to get help. She did not want to quit drinking.
Then she started mixing alcohol with her "meds" as she called them. Different timing, combinations of different kinds of alcohol and different kinds of pills, got her different kinds of "highs" -- and when she found one she liked...she dove into it head first and big time!!!
When I found recovery -- and I got better -- and was regularly, and consistently implementing all of the tools, and everything I learned in alanon...my life got better. What was going on around me did not. However, what was going on around me did not infiltrate me, it did not invade me, suck me into whatever drama, chaos, havoc, and turmoil was going on. My wife called me one night, drunk and incoherent. I couldn't understand what she was saying. She was also at the same time talking -- or attempting to talk -- to anyone else who happened to pass her by on the street. Her friend took the phone and proceeded to tell me they got "thrown out" of some bar but my wife's jacket and purse were inside and nobody would let them back in to get it. After the explanation, I calmly told the friend, "oh, ok, I am glad you are both ok...and I am sure you two will figure this out" and that was it. I'm done. Back to sleep I went. I did not say I am sorry, I did not make any suggestions, and I wasn't going to say one word that would prompt a reply...and if there was a reply...I was done! Period. I have my boundaries. I honor them.
My wife had a certain small group of friends -- five of them -- who were the bar flies, party girls, etc. Whatever you want to call them, they were alcoholics. Her family was also a major problem -- very dysfunctional and very unhealthy. I simply stopped participating in activities with these people. Not as punishment. Not me making some sort of statement. I did it because IT WAS UNHEALTHY FOR ME. It was a trigger. It created angst, anxiety, etc. So, I set a boundary. I had my boundary. I honored it. I did not tell her not to see these people or her family. I did not explain to her that I felt or thought they were unhealthy, dysfunctional, etc. That's not my business. That's not my job. I gave up the job of trying to fix it. Once, when she brought up the topic, and she ASKED ME, I made a judgment call, spur of the moment, because alanon is innate, it is within me, it's how I live my life...and I asked her, "well, that's a great question...did you ever think about trying/getting some space and distance with some of these people? I wouldn't label them. I could however, LOL. However, my goal was not to discuss this with her. My goal was to end the conversation. This was not a conversation I wanted to have with her. At a certain point, it becomes about my will...and she has to decide on her own. Those two element are -- in alanon -- always at odds. By the way -- the incident, and those 5 friends of my wife...that was 10 years ago...today, 2 of them are dead, one is an invalid, and one has disappeared. I don't know about the 5th one.
My sponsor always told me...wish good things for her. Pray for her. She needs help and does not know it. Pray that she hits her rock bottom and WANTS to and DECIDES to quit, get better, get healthy, and finds recovery. That's what you should pray for and wish for -- for her. Not for you, but for her! I can't want it more than her. She has to want it -- for her, not for the marriage, not to avoid jail, not to avoid me divorcing her, not for any other reason...but because SHE WANTS TO. She always said she did...but her actions NEVER were congruent or aligned with her words. That too is alcoholism. It's a terrible, painful fact...in my experience, the alcoholic might say every day, a hundred times a day...I will quit, I am quitting, I will be OK, get better, get healthy, all is fine, I am not drinking...but when they do it their way, and their actions aren't what there words are...simple, obvious, and bottom line. That's one thing many people in alanon don't want to see. We hide from it. We are in denial. But, we, here in alanon, try, little by slowly...to get better.
Fedora, you are doing a great job. You have so much awareness and clarity around focusing on YOU, making change, and doing what you need to do -- the next right thing in front of you -- for YOU and your KIDS. Keep up the great work. I admire and respect your drive, determination, and your efforts to learn and live this program. Keep doing it!
Alanon...it works if you work it, so work it...you are worth it!!!
__________________
Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
