((Starry)) not sure if you are attending alanon face to face meetings,yet - however i would like to state that the principles of alanon require that we do not give advise and that we adhere to basic principles one of which is that we are powerless over people, places and things.

In my experience with the dreadful disease of alcoholism I have agreed to my hubby taking a separate vacation (simply because I could not stop it ) and when he was gone i took a lovely vacation for myself .On return, I attended alanon meetings obtained a sponsor worked the steps and finally developed new tools to live by You are not alone so please do keep coming back as recovery is process .

I would love a vacation but I can't afford it. Especially 2 vacations. I'll go more in debt so he can go to Florida. Never ending. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just move on. But I am keeping to not make any major decisions for 6 months.

This all sounds exhausting for you and I am sorry its all working out this way for you.

I learned to let go once I realised that a power greater than me was playing out in everyone's life. I cant control another persons choices, no way. If my son chooses to drink and he does then that's his choice. Hes 25, a grown man, on his own path that I cant possibly know whats best for him. My choice I don't give him money. If he chooses to drink and he then (I use the word choice but Im not sure how much choice there is for an alcoholic) packs in his job, fights with his girlfriend becomes homeless, gets arrested then that is the natural course of events. The consequences of his own choices or behaviour. My choice is to let his life play out as it should with little interference from me.

Do you have children? Think of a toddler playing, if hes being watched by a responsible adult he might take risks with his play, he feels safe to take chances because he knows there is someone who will help him if he falls.

You and your husband are playing this out, hes the toddler being watched by his Mummy so he is a man baby, your the mummy. He gets to push the boundaries, take more risks because ultimately like the toddle hes safe because your there to check on him, tell him what he can and cant do, keep control of his drinking etc. There's no growth here for anyone in this situation. He needs to be able to have the chance to make mistakes like every other adult. Theres no other way to learn for any of us.

Alanon helps with this little by little. I know I was helped greatly by using the Detachment leaflet, its kind of like a dos and donts list. I had to sit and get really honest about what is and isnt my responsibilities. I had to look at how my fear was driving this controlling side of me and I realised that the fear is mine and mine to deal with, an inside job. It wasnt fair of me to make my fear the responsibility of my son and force him to behave how I wanted. I had to stop playing the role of higher power in the life of my drinker. Im not his higher power, my view is too short. He has his own inside him and I had to back off, mind my business and let go. The consequences are hard to watch but they are vital for growth. All I can do is protect myself from the disease and the consequences.

(((el-cee))) Thank you for your thoughts and insight. Your comment about Man Child brought a sad smile to my face. I do use this almost daily. I ask myself as I would a 2 year old, is this going to hurt them self or another? Because he's an adult I usually only think of other. Hence the drinking and driving. A few months ago I had a spiritual awakening. Realizing I can NOT control my Alcoholic. I was being torn apart by all the lies and deceitfulness. I'm getting better at realizing he WILL lie regardless of what I say or do. Detachment has been easier to do than I thought. I've narrowed down to 2 main boundaries, drinking and driving & giving him access to money. His prescription narcotics I WOULD LOVE LOVE LOVE to NOT have to monitor them. That's my next thing I want to give back to him. This was something we agreed on a few years ago. Even he was getting tired of the never ending search for pills when he ran out. Right now my biggest fear is his family handing car keys to someone who hides being intoxicated very well. My AH is so a Man Child. When I'm not around the child inside of him comes out to play. And it's not nice. 4 months ago when I was in the ICU with heart failure he spent the time staggering drunk. I don't ban alcohol in my house for one thing it doesn't work. Some nights are better some nights are nigtmares. Why do we do this to ourselves. I so need to dive into this journey of al anon. I need a lot of literature. I need to find peace.

I so know that feeling of trying to keep the alcoholic from causing harm.  It makes us into police officers, doesn't it?

The thing is that he can blow into a breathalyzer before he gets into the car, but the second he's out of the driveway he can pull a mini-bottle out of his pocket and get roaring drunk.  Or he can drive straight to the liquor store.  And then he can drive drunk the rest of the day.

When they say the Three C's - you didn't Cause it, you can't Cure it, you can't Control it - they really mean it.  We can't control it.

If an adult wants to go to Florida, I think that's his choice.  Of course his choice may have consequences.  He may get arrested down there, he may get into trouble, etc.  (All of these are true anywhere he goes.)  It may be necessary trouble.  He may find that his wife/partner is fed up with living with alcoholism and decides to separate.  It may be that he just lives his same old miserable life for a while.  Whichever, those are his consequences to have.

The Al-Anon saying is "He's going to do what he's going to do, what are you going to do?"

Hope you'll take good care of yourself.

Good Morning all and thank you for ESH today. Understanding that I cannot change another person is easy until it's my son suffering the consequences and standing by like I'm watching an accident in slow motion. I can relate to him being a man child even if he chose to self destruct at 40. The light really came on for me reading this thread and seeing how I rob him of his adulthood and growth when I jump in and try to fix the boo boos and stick a bandaid on it. I never did the kids homework for them knowing it was their turn to learn not mine. So good reminder for me today to Live and
Let Live.

StarryAmmo wrote:

---

Serenity thank you I love your posts! They are so straight forward and to the point. I wish I was as far along in the program as you and many others. My oldest son I had to detach from for over a year when he was at the peak of his Meth use. He was homeless at times and always blamed me for his situation. I always told him he had a home if he was solber. It was hard to let go but he was an adult making his own choices in life. I ask myself "Why is it so hard to detach from my AH?" I need to find the answer to that question. Is it because it's my money he's drinking away? Is it because I feel I'll detach my way out of an almost 30 year relationship? I'm finding out this is not an easy journey.

---

Big hugs,

I think your position is interesting to me from the stand point I always had the attitude leaving my XAH was not an issue if it was my only option (at the time it was he was in major self destruct, our survival was first).  That being said .. I can't divorce my kids and that scares me because I am horrible at personal relationships.  So boundaries for me are key.  I do remember expanding so much energy I had nothing left for anyone let alone myself and my XAH was my obsession.  I can't go down that road again. 

My key components are my blood pressure is going to remain calm regardless of the situation and trust me I have been put through the ringer lately with my oldest.  I have discovered my parenting has become whack a mole .. meaning .. I get one flying right although wobbly and the other one decides to take off and nose dive .. it's a little like herding cats towards a bath and no one is coming out alive.  I'm so not appreciating the adventure, however I signed up for it when I asked to be sole custodian.  The other thing is my anxiety over their choices.  I am not here to live their life lessons.  So I struggle to watch them struggle and with my oldest see a couple of train wrecks and have had to make the hard call of that's why you have a therapist.  Not me .. the oldest ... lol .. I just can't at the moment and I am ok with my limitations.  Now I will participate in the therapy with them .. I am not their therapist that's not to say I ignore their issues .. we have a couple of topics off limits.  One big one, we have agreed to disagree on and we seem to have come to a resolve although my oldest seems to think they are going to slip it in on me and got a rude awakening. 

I just came to a point with my XAH of being sick and tired of being sick and tired and thank GOD for Alanon because without it I would have been a bigger mess than I can be at times.  My higher power whom I call God, has taught me that things I obsess over have a way of working themselves out.  I don't need to worry I just need to relax for a bit and take care of me first.

Big hugs and just keep coming back, S :)

So, he's doing what he's doing...not finding recovery...and you are only 3 months into doing what you are doing...hoping you are on your journey to recovery. er

Two separate journeys, right? Focus on you. Work with your sponsor. You said "1. I will do what I can to stop the drinking and driving." -- you may want to look at that. Is it your job to stop the drinking and driving. If you don't want to get into a car with him, when he's been drinking, I get that. No problem. That's a very good decision. But, as far as him driving -- that's up to him. Not giving him money, I get it. Another great move -- not enabling, not participating. Now, you "hold his narcotics with his blessing." You might want to check your motives and talk to your sponsor about this. Control? Force will even though you have his blessing? Want what you want?

As far as the vacation -- you ask "Who's going to make sure he doesn't get behind the wheel." and further say "...but he WILL ask to borrow a car to go to the store to get his alcohol." -- how does this sound to you? Having his family enforce boundaries, to control him, are not boundaries. They are controlling measures. If that's the goal, go for it. My experience, just for me, my case, I only got better, after I stopped doing those things. I did the work, did the steps, learned, made changes -- and I was doing everything and more of what you are talking about -- and when I stopped, I got better, I got healthy. Before that I wasn't living -- I had full-time job policing her, getting her family on board, involved, having them join me in trying to control her and stop the drinking. Sounds like what you are doing? You said "But my AH doesn't want to continue our routine while in Florida." and then you immediately state "I can't and will not control an alcoholic. We all know that's impossible." -- are you trying to though? Early on, I viewed healthy as my efforts to control my wife's drinking.

So to answer your question -- no, I don't think what you are portraying is healthy. Work with your sponsor. Our thinking sometimes becomes so distorted that healthy and normal become distorted.

By the way, is paying for the vacation something you are willing to do? Is that acceptable to you? It doesn't sound like it is.

Laurie, its' amazing you've noticed that your thinking is almost as insane as your AH. Many, many newcomers don't recognize that. They have no idea. I didn't notice or realize that. All of it had just become "normal" to me -- the drama, the chaos, the turmoil, the havoc, her behavior, my behavior, my full time job trying to stop it and fix it, the manipulations, lies, stories, the aftermath of the drinking, and so on and so on. I didn't know my thinking was so distorted and was as insane as my AW's.

Life can come crashing down due to the disease of addiction. Mine did. While I had the ability -- through legal and financial ways -- to ultimately protect myself, asets, my exposure/liability, etc., while all of this was going on, the marriage did not go unscathed. I handled her meds too. A 40 year old, Ivy league educated, executive. And I handled her meds...because she asked me to? Don't do for someone else something they should and could be doing for themselves. I was told so many times. But I didn't listen. Not at first. I finally did.

You are making progress though -- you now know you can't control his drinking and driving, and you are focusing on YOU and how to handle the feelings of fear while he is in FL. That's great!!! Great for you!!! That's amazing progress!!! Go talk to your sponsor about this and he/she will work with you, guide you, and you will learn acceptance, surrender, and letting go.

I found that a loving, nurturing, and very much so compassionate spouse CAN set up boundaries while being all of those things. Being those things doesn't happen because we don't have boundaries. Actually, I think that spouse WILL have boundaries. They are not exclusive.

That said -- go to work! LOL. You are doing great. Keep focusing on YOU.

Living  with  an AH is like living with the circus with all the monkeys  riding  the Rollercoaster! I  believe my world has exploded into a million  peices. He's  going  to  Florida  and finally  told me where a large sum of money went. (Money from a construction job he did) first real paycheck in years. Needed for bills  which he helped build while not working. Just found  out he paid for his part of the trip. So, PUFF gone on car rental and gas cards. I'm  beyond  LIVID. I always  say this man will be the death  of me. This time he pushed my BP 289/150. So how I'm  medicating  myself  which will help me detach because  I'll  be asleep. They puts me out. I used the saying  "Say what you Mean Mean what you say,  but don't  say it Mean" am I close? I asked him to stay in Florida. I'm  not upset with him leaving  and not coming  back, I'm  more upset with the financial  mess he's leaving  me with.  But right  now I'm  numb. Trying  not to think about  all the things I need to deal  with starting  tomorrow  morning. 

Laurie, you are only in the program for three months, and while you are starting to grasp some of the tools of the program -- you are not yet in a place of real recovery. Making decisions right now would be making decisions from a place of anger, resentment, aggression, duress, and probably more things that you are feeling. And, those feelings are overwhelming -- they are overwhelming you. Now, this is normal, so don't fight it. Acceptance, surrender, and letting go.

Now, if you were in program longer, maybe 6 months -- 6 months of real work, meeting with your sponsor, working with him/her, making changes, being in a place of acceptance, starting to get past the anger and resentment, having given up your desire to control him and get him to stop, and had more progress...then...you might be in a position of making decisions from a place of intellect, strength, healthy thinking, and so forth. 

From my experience, when I was going through all of this, much of what you are going through, when I started doing the work...my goal was to get better, to get healthy...so that I could arrive at a place where I could ask myself -- and answer -- the question...is this the way I want to live my life? Is this the life I want to live? 

I got there. You will too. Keep doing your work. Keep coming back.

Now, that said, if you've asked him to stay in FL...good for you! I am proud of you and I admire and respect your courage. And if he doesn't stay? If he doesn't make it easy for you? Keep doing your work. Keep coming back.

Hugs SA,

I am so sorry this is impacting you negatively .. especially financially. I would def be finding a way to protect myself financially and just cut that off. It sounds like you are able to financially do things on your own.

One thing I have heard across the board and this was true for me when the seriousness of what alcoholism was doing to me health wise it was crazy .. my blood pressure was through the roof when I moved out the same state my blood pressure dropped by 40 points that is HUGE. I remember the day of court I happened to have a Dr appointment and my Dr was so upset because it was so high I should have been stroking out .. it was a mess. As I detangled from my XAH I was able to get healthier .. not to say I couldn't do better now .. however I am soooo much better than I was, I need to loose a little weight .. I will take that over the blood pressure and constant anxiety attacks I was having and didn't know it. I thought I was dying very literally.

I hope you are able to relax and take a breath because for me it really made me realize how neglectful I had been and there was no one there who had my back and that was scarier because of the fact I had 2 minor children at the time and I was leaving them to what?

Keep coming back. S :)

Oops gotta  say something  to Stan1!! You  mentioned Puppies! I have 2 of them. One's  name is Star and the a other Ammo. Star weights  4 lbs and Ammo 20 Lbs. They are my children  now that my 3 are grown up. Yes they help with movement  and enjoyment! Thank you for your post!!!!

Hi StarryAmmo. So sorry for the grief and turmoil you are experiencing. It is certainly not fun. When my Ex had her final meltdown and I decided to separate I experienced periods of peaceful healing which were interrupted by periods of fear, sadness and anger. It is getting better because with this program I'm getting better little by little.

It's amazing when you start to really feel and experience the "hope" -- and then it turns into real relief, almost a calmness. I so enjoy my "quiet" and the feeling "lighter" so to speak. For me, just having the behavior -- all of it -- not in my face, vision, etc., allowed me to make progress with detaching, both physically and emotionally.

I like what you said about how it felt liberating to feel free. I've found the anger still lingers sometimes. It goes dormant, quiet, or whatever you want to call it...but for me, over time, when I immersed myself into acceptance, surrender, letting go, and detachment -- I got past all of the anger and resentment. Today, I am "unoffendable" and don't allow any of that to infiltrate my world. I just don't interact with unhealthy people when given the choice.

The chaos that was left behind, is what I call the "collateral damage" part of this disease. And, there can be a lot of it.

Miracles do happen.

Hope you enjoyed the Chinese take-out!!! LOL.