Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Father's Day

WestMan · Senior Member

Hugs to you (((SerenityRUS))). It's good that your kids have you. I grew up with a single mom as well, although also had an ok relationship with my dad, and it's not easy.

2HP · Senior Member

Perhaps its a good time to lean on step 11...?

I encourage my kids to try and have the relationship that "is" possible with their dad... because whether he is alcoholic or not, he will always be their dad. Nothing, not even God, can change that.

So when my kids talk like this, I tell them, "I understand you are hurt and angry... I would be too. But never say never, sweetie.... I know your dad loves you very much, he just can't show it.... it's sad and hard to believe, but he really is doing his best. your dad is sick from a disease that's hard to see."

I enjoy their voices becoming quiet and peaceful again, knowing its the effect of TRUTH on our hearts. and I feel wonderful carrying a message of HOPE to them.

I do know this, my kids will be just fine... if and when they decide to tap into a power greater than themselves. And it can't be me because I'm powerless, lol

They know I'm a member of of al-anon though, so they know exactly where to turn. They will be fine because I, and many others who came before me, have survived the experience of having alcoholic parents. We are not unique (((hugs)))

p.s. It helped when I stopped putting so much importance on holidays, allowing society to dictate what a day should mean to me. Nothing has meaning except the meaning I give it. For me...

Holidays are just another 24 hours.

Recovery taught me to amend my beliefs so I can maintain a peaceful mind.

-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 12:13:00 PM

texas yankee · Senior Member

While I'm sad for all of you that your kids had to make the decision they did, in a way I envy their strength - when these sick individuals do things that push their loved ones away, IMHO, even though we know that they're sick, they still need to experience the consequences of their actions, or they'll never learn. I am sure that it was VERY sad and painful for your kids to say and do what they did, but I know that it took a lot of strength - I'm 67, and doing what I know I should do with my alcoholic son is a daily battle inside of me - your kids sound like they're on the right track. I guess they're too young for Ala Teen.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Serenity Good Job!! Its great hearing that children of this disease have a very knowledgeable and loving parent who stands with them. Ours is not a program of resentment and revenge ours is a program of unconditional love just as what we receive in side of the rooms and on this form. I can touch the reality of living with and loving unconditionally the alcoholic and addict...what a gift!! Keep on keeping on (((Hugs))) smile

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks all,

TY - I have talked to my kids about Alateen however at this point neither is interested I would be thrilled to get my son (13) into therapy however he's giving me push back at this point and time. My oldest (girl) is 18 and is in traditional therapy. Based upon the challenges I'm having finding alanon meetings .. alateen meetings are fewer.

Jerry .. hmm .. unconditionally loving the alcoholic .. I wish I was there .. it's not about punishment .. I feel pity for him not anything else. The part that hurts is the fact the kids will have a similar relationship that I have with my dad which is he will be out of their lives far longer than he will be in it. It is what it is and that is the wound that they will have to try and heal. The kids tolerate him to a point, they do throw down healthy boundaries based upon their security in that moment of his behavior. What behavior really he hasn't seen them in 2 years or talked to them in almost 6 months. Go figure.

HP2 - I still have 4th step work to do on this more than anything else I think. Even then .. I am not looking at my part because this is their relationship. We do have open dialog however they are watching his actions or non actions in this case. My natural instinct is to protect the kids first and then allow him to work it out on his own based upon past behavior. I think that has been the best way to address the situations with him and the kids. Their safety and mental well being first. So I'm kind of at if nothing changes .. nothing changes and nothing has seriously changed.

Hugs S :)

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Serenity unconditional love for me today doesn't include the word alcoholic or alcoholism. After I heard one of our members in central valley CA. speak about how she loved her alcoholic I had to learn more because I had doubts and push back. I followed her out to her car after the meeting and asked her for her definition of love which today is now mine and it doesn't include the word alcohol, alcoholism or alcoholic either. What she told me addressed that principle and character within me...and her which gave her total freedom regarding how she felt and acted in her life and I knew she was right on because just after I considered what she told me I felt such a deep sense of spiritual freedom I made her principle as stated my own. She told me, "Unconditional love is the complete and total ACCEPTANCE OF EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING for exactly who they are". Today I have no demands on any one to qualify for my compassion and empathy and support...I am no better or worse disease or not. I got very close to my HP with that especially coming to learn that is how my HP loves me. Keep coming back .... ((((hugs)))) smile

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

LOL Jerry,

In this case I am referring to the alcoholic because I have a difficult time accepting where HE is at .. other's I am getting better at and I'm in a different place than I was a few years ago. Him .. yikes .. I really still struggle with that it helps that we are not constantly in court now .. it's just misc things and I don't have to deal with any of that today at least. I know I am powerless over not just the alcoholic's behavior this past 6 weeks has been very humbling in reminders of how little I control with life in general .. LOL.

I have movable boundaries with me for my own behavior with others where all of my boundaries used to be hard boundaries and then my hard boundaries are just those .. deal breakers for me. While my hard boundaries take care of me in terms of the deal breakers instead of being in the hundreds they are in double digits .. as long as I'm growing I'm good. Most of my hard boundaries are def related to my XAH. I just am that stubborn and refuse to deal with his mess.

Ironically the story I shared the picture of my XMIL popped up on FB reminders with the kids around her .. it's a sweet picture and I'm glad we were there it's actually the last picture I have of her. I had forgotten how close the date was to Father's Day and how my kids will choose to express themselves will be interesting.

Hugs S :)

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Serenity,
i hope today (Father's Day) was peaceful for you and your children. i have been watching this post carefully, as it is a tough day for me son and I as well. I struggle to find a card that doesn't say all the mushy/loving stuff I don't feel, and my son has a hard time finding an appropriate card b/c his dad wasn't that great of a father while clean and sober - forget about when he was/is in active addiction! Before program, I spent so many wasted hours trying to model "correct" behavior, in the hopes that my AH would learn and begin teaching our son these things: how to treat a lady, how to be respectful of elders, how to be prompt so as not to waste others time, how to listen to things people say so that the next time to give a gift presents itself, he could provide a gift that really says, "I love you and care enough about you to listen to what you really want or need." But all that was lost to my AH. And now that I have Al-Anon, I see that I was trying to exert my will onto my husband... but at least I think my son learned some good stuff from me! AT least I hope so! LOL!

As 2HP said, I told my son that his dad will always be his dad, and despite all his faults, he is not a deadbeat... he gets up everyday (well 99%) and goes to work to provide for us. So we went a got a small gift and cards. Today there was no drinking, and despite it being 100 degrees and too hot to do much, it was a decent day.

One day at a time!

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I had a great day with the kids we celebrated Father's Day with my BF. The kids and I had a good laugh in the card aisle. The kids wanted to get him something that said thank you .. however without all of the other mushy stuff. We had success! Woo hoo .. LOL .. pretty much it was thank you for showing me what a man is really like kind of thing .. it was perfect for their relationship.

My X IS a deadbeat in terms if it wasn't coming directly out of his check he would not be paying me and has proven time and time again he's going to pay what HE feels I deserve. Which is about 50$ a week short .. LOL. So I don't have a lot of compassion about his actual relationship with them .. I have sadness about their relationship wound for lack of a better term.

I did ask the kids if they wanted to talk to their dad and both gave a resounding NO .. so I told them that was fine. He can reach out to them and chooses not to. I'm not going to make them, they are both old enough to choose. They are going to their home town this summer and both have indicated they don't want to see him then either. So it will be 2 years since they saw him.

Before I met my BF I teased them both I'm the best man you know so take what you can as far as that goes .. LOL!! So I hope that the kids have taken away something from me in that regard.

Anyway, it is what it is .. and another holiday has passed which is a good thing because it won't come back around until next year. There are no more made up holidays that involve parenting or lack of it. Although I would give my soul to find a card that said exactly how I felt during those times .. Mother's Day and Father's Day are a struggle for me personally.

Hugs S :)

Stan1 · Senior Member

Just want to share the beautiful Father's Day message my elder son posted to his Dad; they are both RA's. It had a picture of his shadow holding the hand of his 2 yr old son in shadow. (have tried to copy and print but no) the message read: "At first he casts a large shadow that you feel you will never fill; But as time goes on, you realize It's not growing to equal size, but that it is attached to you...That's all that matters". I thought this was very special as the two of them went through some pretty rough times of anger and disappointment.

-- Edited by Stan1 on Monday 19th of June 2017 09:54:42 AM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Stan1 - that's awesome!!! I had to chuckle as for some unknown to me reason, both of my sons called me yesterday....I asked them if they knew it was Father's Day and they both responded yes.....The oldest wanted to come hang out with my grandkids and I told him I had other plans. My youngest wanted to come hang out because they'd lost power at their house due to the storms. I also told him I had other plans.

One texted my husband and the other waited until last night to call my AH to wish him HFD....I had a great day, my AH did what he wanted, my sons ended up hanging together and that's the way we do things here. I'm a tired, sore feeling-old woman today - 4 softball games and up at 5am to help with grandchildren is not my idea of rest/relation with is how I usually spend Mondays....I had committed to the baby momma to help before I realized I would be playing 4 games!

Anyway - all holidays to me are just another day. I learned that early, early on in recovery and it does put things into proper perspective for me. I used to want for that which I did not have and the days just made me sad. Now, if I can remember it's just another day and make plans it goes way better.

Happy Monday to all!

Stan1 · Senior Member

(((IAH))) Boy can I relate to the sore feeling- old woman today. Our grandson was out this weekend and I love him to pieces but this old gal's body ain't what it used to be...lol. One active 2 yr old and one 3 mo old busy puppy wore me out. Today I'm just relaxing and planting a few veggies.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I hear you.....I had the two little boys - 3.5 and 1.5 from 6am to 11am....goodness - I now fully understand the advantage of having babies while you are young!!! Enjoy the planting - I so believe that digging in the dirt is good for the soul!!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey Serenity, I think about this and how it feels to love your kids so much and want the best for them including a good Father. I found this very hard to live with and then I realised that my idea of a good Father has been distorted and very idealistic. I never had a Father at all growing up so my ideas around what a good Father is must have been have come from a few places, watching friends Fathers, my uncle and basically the media really, possibly Disney too lol.

What makes a good Father? to be honest I dont really have a clue. My current partner is showing me what a dedicated loving Father is and its lovely to watch, hes a full time single parent to a teenage daughter, its a very special relationship.

My kids are older now all 20+ and so I have mostly, maybe 90% let go of the relationship they have with their Father, its none of my business, sometimes I get a bit nosey and stick my nose in but mostly I have nothing to do with it. It seems to be mending, hes in recovery, don't know how deep in he is.

Anyway, recently and progressively Ive been thinking more and more of the actual good things he did, even in the midst of the disease, he wanted to be a good Father. He worked and brought the money in despite drinking and losing jobs periodically. At Christmas time he was the one building the toys, setting it all up, he would play football with them and this all the while checking in and out of drunkenness. What have I been doing for years? well, Ive been bad mouthing him to my children, name calling, gossiping, I have had a bad bad attitude that I have passed on regarding him, teaching my kids how to feel like they too are his victim the same way I felt that for years, passing on resentment anger and hate. Its not good enough anymore, my kids deserve better than that.

I need to make amends to my kids and those living amends mean I must work towards feeling differently about their Father, he will always be their Father and if I can help them see him with compassion and even love through my changed attitude then that might be the best gift I can give and the best amends because to carry the burden of hating or holding grudges for your Father is one of those life long poisons that can taint the lives of my kids and you know they have been through enough.

So have I, I owe it to me too, to truly let go of the resentment and anger I have felt for this man. Hes a flawed human no better or worse than me and the more I see him this way then the more I get to be free of the whole horrible mess we created.

Thanks for bringing this here and giving me the chance to get more committed to those amends, I can get into the habit of disrespecting him with roling my eyes or sighing and I can take pleasure in the kids being annoyed at him, his very name has the power to control my face at times, lol. Im grateful for this program, it lets me see more clearerly and I must make a decision to change this behaviour and Im going to tyr taking this through the steps.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

EC .. thanks for your share .. I don't think I have a distorted idea of what a good dad is because I have been fortunate enough to see what imperfect men do to be a "good dad". I'm grateful for that lesson. I have seen many broken men try. My grandfather was a good man and a good dad .. not perfect .. however I do have that as what a good dad looks like.

This one has not been around for 7 years and when he was before that he was not available .. so no .. my kids have seen what a "good dad" is not because thankfully I have really good friends who have a present husbands/fathers. He provided when he was forced to provide he did not do so voluntarily .. when he realized he was going to loose his driving privileges or he realized he was going to court that's when he provided, not because he knew he had a responsibility to the kids. He punished me by not paying not understanding how that affected the kids. I was living on poverty wages for 4 of those years and I'm talking 9k - 20k maybe yearly and he knew this .. that was him being a jackass because sometimes people really are just a$$holes. It is what it is and that's his issue not mine. He's still not well in his thinking .. you know .. whatever .. NOT my issue. He did not exercise his option for visitation when we lived 3 miles down the road and again it's now been 2 years since he's physically seen the kids by what I call mutual choice.

One thing the experience has shown me is that he will show our kids who he is without any help for me what kind of person he is, and that lesson did come late to me .. I probably owe them an amends in that regard and now I just choose not to say so much about their dad now and they come to me with some memory .. I'm not going to tell them what they remember is not valid .. if it's what they remember. That is the biggest disservice to do to someone .. tell someone they didn't see what they saw .. that's crazy making.

Someday the kids may choose to have a relationship .. whatever that means to them .. honestly .. not my business. For now .. I'm not going to tell them how they feel or what they experienced did not happen it just is what it is and he has not done anything to change that perception of their reality. They have their own journey to walk to heal that wound with or without him in it.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I dont think its about telling the kids that what they remember or feel or think is wrong or not valid. I see it as getting freedom from the pain. I went to Alanon to get freedom from the pain and the things that were causing me pain was my anger, resentment, bitterness etc and learning that my ex was sick and not bad that he suffered from a disease that of course never excuses unacceptable behaviour but kind of explains it, that really helped me.

It freed me to see him as a flawed human rather than the whole range of names I had for him. I can take lots of painful memories and see them differently no longer from the point of view where I'm the victim hes the perpetrator, this perspective made me sick and kept me sick. Now I can see it as he was behaving just as a sick alcoholic behaves, pretty simple. It was never about me or caused by me. So for me its not about making the past invalid, its about seeing it differently in a way that benefits me and its my truth. I truly truly believe alcoholism is a disease and it brings all the negative behaviours, he was never doing bad things to me and the kids. He was just behaving like a sick person in pain. Much easier to take.

I feel step 11 is telling me that now Ive got free from all that then I can pass the message on to my kids, so if they tell me something about their Dad and they are angry then I can share what I know about alcoholism and I can share that its not their fault, they didn't cause it etc. Its not about invalidating them, its about empowering them, helping them not see themselves as victims of the disease .

If my kids can get to compassion and understanding along with boundaries with their Dad then they are doing brilliantly well and that is about the best it can get. The alternative is too painful to live with and I know because I lived it for 20 yrs, the poverty I know too well, the difference for me is I see all those memories as my higher power edging me closer and closer towards the life I have now and I can be grateful for them and I can actually see how necessary they actually were.

Im also aware how much power I actually have over my kids thinking and their progress along the road and its not that much. All I can do is lead by example and I take that job pretty seriously. The healthier my thinking is the healthier my behaviour is and they watch that and there is a definite change in every single one of us since Alanon and thank God for that. x

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I can see that .. I guess I'm just not there yet .. I don't see myself as a victim .. however I do resent how my X with the court stuff and so on. It will take me more years than I have to put my life completely back on track financially thanks to what he put us through. Yes, he did victimize me through the system however I am more than that one part of my life.

I do not see the kids having a healthy relationship at this point with their dad .. he tells them they are stupid and so on .. tells my daughter she needs to get married to be a woman and not to go to college .. lol. To my knowledge he's not drinking .. I don't see this is a flawed person .. I see this as abuse .. with no remorse. There is a difference between trying and just being an a$$. There is no cost benefit to having a relationship at this point. The emotional cost is way to expensive .. you do not want to know what "dreams" he has for my son. After all my son has brain damage and will never do anything with his life .. again .. his words.

Some people are just to toxic to know what it means to have a real relationship and again .. when the emotional cost outweighs the emotional benefit it is what it is. I don't see a value to having those kinds of relationships. There is a purpose to the statement of loving someone from a distance and this is that kind of relationship.

Stan1 · Senior Member

Hi all, just popping back in to clarify my previous post of the tribute my older son gave his Dad. I was quite moved by this gesture and I am amazed that they even have a relationship at all. The past 20 years had many thorns along the way. My then AH's treatment of our eldest was pretty ugly and unwarranted and many important events were missed. Then the disease took hold of our son and he went through the court hoops too and ironically with neither support or sympathy from his ADad. I don't think their relationship would be as it is today without AA and Al-Anon. Not all relationships recover and some just plain shouldn't in my HO, especially when there is abuse.

-- Edited by Stan1 on Wednesday 21st of June 2017 12:33:29 PM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I believe we all have our pasts and we all know pain. My parents were raised with corporal punishment, and trust me when I say, so were we. My brother who is closest to me in behavior, choices, etc. disclosed to me a couple weeks ago that Dad hit him twice and both times he was shocked senseless that it happened.....I am so glad that we were on the phone because I was hit many, many, many times. It so happens I got caught more than anyone else with my 'misdeeds' as my bedroom was next to my parents. My brothers were on another floor completely.

A huge part of why I left at 17 was because of my home life. Flash forward, disease, law, events, etc. happen. All I know is that by working the recovery program, I did come to realize that nobody is perfect, it was what he knew/was taught and it showed me a way I did not want to be. Yet, to actually let go of resentments, anger, etc. I had to forgive ---- for me.

I have a host of stories I could share about my AH and my sons. We all do. We either forgive and grow or hold on and suffer. All I know, just for today, life is not fair. Some people are better/worse than others, but I have the choice to take the high road as often as possible and do the next right thing for me.

To those younger than I, they would consider corporal punishment abuse. I don't know that I need to apply a label to it - it's in the past and it's not forgotten but it is forgiven. I remember the exact day when I was able to kindly share my boundaries with my parents. It was as simple as - please don't speak to me like that in my house. If you want to go stay somewhere else, you are welcome to do so. I was shocked, they were shocked but to this day, they are far more respectful than ever before.

I shared one day this week about going through photo albums. I saw many photos that were fun memories of my father with my boys, my AH with my boys and my boys genuinely happy, healthy and loving fun. If I had done my life my way, when I left at 17 I would never have contacted any of them again. I actually 'hid' for 3 years and one of my cousins came looking for me and stayed in town until she found me. I ASSumed how my parents thought of me matched what the extended family felt. I was WRONG and she invited me to come live with her and her parents. I did end up doing so about one year later.

I'm grateful for where I am in recovery and I'm so glad that others who came before me kept suggesting program tools for me to deal/heal.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I have enjoyed this thread, its so good to get more awareness and to consider different angles. Ive kind of let go of my kids a lot, in terms of what I can control in their lives and that includes their relationship with their Father.

Serenity, I completely understand your instinct to protect them when there is abuse involved, that is unacceptable and as the only sane rational thinker and responsible person in their lives your the one in charge of that scenario.

I just think of my own dis-ease and what part of it caused me pain. It was when I had put my ex on another level in my mind, he was like a demon an actual enemy in my life at times and he had so much power when he lived in that way in my mind.

I want more than anything for my kids not to have him there in their minds. I want them to understand he is sick and not bad and that because he is sick his behaviour has NOTHING to do with them and hopefully they wont be living with false beliefs like its their fault or that they are not good enough. I want him to be small in their minds the way he is in mine and I dont mean in a disrespectful way just much more realistic and there is no power to hurt damage effect me in any way. This is my hope for my kids and I only got it with understanding and then compassion and finally forgiveness. Im not sure there is any other way.

Of course this cannot work properly unless proper boundaries are in place. Its not like we can say well hes sick so therefor he can do anything he wants. No way. Alanon gave me the understanding of unacceptable behaviour and then I got to decide that I would never be verbally emotionally or physically abused again by anyone and if it happens it will happen once because first I try hard not to put myself in the company of active alcoholics when they are drinking and second I have an exit plan so I can leave if it feels dramatic. With young adults and children it is so much harder as they have even less power.

Anyway, not sure Im getting my point across or if it even matters anyway but Serenity I think the best thing we can do is work on getting that compassion and forgiveness for yourself because its a helluva gift to give our kids not for him but for us and them.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Well God has a wicked and wild sense of humor .. LOL .. sigh .. just when I think I have dealt with something I get back handed in a loving way of course with welllll .. maybe I haven't dealt with that just yet deal. It could be the issue of Father's Day.

If any one is interested I posted a link I hope that is ok .. fieldjournals.com/2017/04/19/meet-the-octogenarian-whos-going-to-break-the-appalachian-trail-age-record/

You will have to copy and paste it as I was lazy and didn't link it directly.

This folks is my adopted dad .. these are the moments I wish I didn't know him and his history the way I do because I probably would have liked him .. the problem is I can't stand the untruths because it completely eliminates me as a human being and of course he doesn't get that part of the deal .. as if I didn't matter .. granted him and my mom divorced and I get that. I don't understand his need and this is his need to pretend that part of his life did not exist (hmm there's no pattern here). I'm sure it's guilt related however that doesn't make it hurt less. I know it's his issue again .. doesn't make it hurt less.

So in one of the many articles about him and he is so about ego .. LOL .. he goes on about being married for 40 years .. the reality is no .. he hasn't been because if he was that would mean his current marriage would be invalid. My parents split when I was 10 not 8. It gets better from there however the twisted tales we weave .. LOL. Let's say that I come from a very colorful background AND I'm the black sheep .. LOL!! That part is what makes me laugh. It's because I know the history, I lived it so I am torn between the need to be right and the need to let go. Progress not perfection because of this program I did not email the author and say you might want to fact check unless you are one of the "fake news outlets" with "alternative facts" .. LOL. Sigh .. it is ironic.

One thing he did give me was the fact I do have a very different view of age because of the people in my life .. my mom has always been blessed to know women specifically who defy time. I am sooo grateful for that because it means that I am able to seriously able to say yup .. age is a number not who or what I have to act like.

I am ok with no relationship with my dad logically because of the fact he will never be honest about who he is .. this is about looks and who he wants everyone to think he is .. and it's sheer laziness on my part because I don't have to do any work into something that is fake .. how do you forgive someone you aren't in contact with .. how do I move past this because I am not interested in investing any more time into this lesson and it's the same lesson I had with my XAH. I am tired .. tired of investing time into people who seriously do not matter and I honestly view as a waste of space in my mind. I am not interested in mending relationships .. it is what it is and I am more in pursuit of moving on.

This is the lesson I know my children will eventually come to as well and have expressed verbally how easy it was for their dad to just eliminate them as a human being .. and I think that is what I come back to is the hardness of that lesson and I at least want to have the knowledge that they can get past this and be healthy and heal from the wound that was not of their creation.

Hugs S :)

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene