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I am new to this. At a friends suggestion came here to start my own healing. Abbreviated story as from what i have been reading its the same as most. the pathological lying cheating blacking our with other girls everything except stealing (that i know of). we broke up, or i guess i should say he threw me away like garbage and went off with another girl. i had no contact after and tried to move on. he hit rock bottom. went to rehab. i received a message from him that he wanted to make amends, i was glad he finally was sober but was hesitant to speak with him. of course i didnt want to hurt his sobriety so thought what could it hurt? well it did worse than before. in it he stated that if i had any question or needed any explanation to ask. (the amends was real generic...sorry i was a bad bf, like i hadnt heard that all through the relationship, oh and he never cheated, ya sell that to me again) so i asked a couple questions (mistake) he twisted it and threw it all back on me. stuff that he admitted to in the past now didnt happen, stuff that he doesnt remember, well he doesnt have to apologize for, blah blah blah. the whole conversation turned into me being the issue in the relationship. basically summarize that if i had done this stuff to him he would have broke up, but because he admitted he needed help and i was going to stay and support him, but not enable (calling him out on his lies) it was my fault!?! So my question is. is this normal for an amends? What was the point? i feel like all the healing i have done over the last year 1/2 has been erased. I am in the pit again. Help
Just sharing my thoughts here. This doesn't feel to me like a genuine amend at all. Sounds like he hasn't worked the Steps fully leading up to making amends. Doesn't sound like he understands and wants to make genuine amends.
I say this because i had a similar experience when someone, on the surface, appeared to be making an amend to me but it was just fake and a theatre show for their such gratification.
Nothing genuine about it. That person hasn't worked the Steps.
By the way, just because someone asks if they can make amends to you, you can say no.
Genuine amends involve long-term changes in attitudes and behaviours.
Thanks for the reply. it was just so hurtful. i questioned how if he loved me like he said he would run off with someone else and let me think he was in rehab and leave me waiting for him. he said he couldnt remember and if i had to be mad than he didnt know what to say. ?!?
so did the person in your life that did the same ever re do an amends with you?
its hard to think that you never meant anything to them. never any closure like healthy relationships. and they just keep popping back up to remind you of the hurt.
I agree with Calm Lady. Amends isn't just sorry but it was mostly your fault anyway. It's sorry and I won't do it again and how can I make it up to you and will you forgive me and I was wrong.... and I take the responsibility to ensure I don't do it again. That's huge information if the behavior goes on after the sorry.
You are hurting thats very clear :( sux. You wouldn't be human if you didn't feel hurt by some very hurtful behaviour. Quite unacceptable from a person who claims to love us right?
yes geems! and its so hard as it doesnt seem like other people who havent been through this can understand. its a pain that just seems to linger. when other relationships end there is hurt yes, but a closure of some kind and acceptance. this one has been like the never ending pain. how he can be so cruel even sober is hard for me to accept. he obviously meant the world to me as i was willing to stay and be there while he worked on sobriety. i feel so used and like i meant nothing.
You seem to see your part.. you walked away from the relationship but you engaged again and you seem to know that it was an error that you made, and now you are wounded all over again.
You can go back to your detachment from him if that brings more peace. that would be YOUR amends to YOU. You certainly want to address that feeling of being in a black hole but believe me when I tell you, there is no human powerful enough to pull you out. The solution is inside you.
If you become active in Al-Anon recovery and the twelve steps, I expect you will find what I found, some tools to deal with all the wounds and emotional poison.
I can tell you that the goal of amends is personal. We can all sit around with him under the microscope, judging him and his amends but then we are not doing what we come to Al-Anon for, focus on ourselves... taking care of OURSELVES is where we do have some power.
If you are full of poisonous resentment like I used to be, Al-Anon and the twelve steps can help. Al-Anon is a fellowship of friends and families who have been affected by someone elses drinking. Keep coming back (((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 23rd of September 2016 01:56:10 PM
I agree with 2HP
I know what you mean about the black hole and you can pull yourself out of it. You can't change him but you can change you for the better. Hang in and I would recommend face to face al anon meetings.
To me it doesnt sound like an amends on his part, sounds like he just wanted to hash things over. Give yourself time Numb his actions will speak louder than his words. Be good to yourself. linsc
To answer your question about face to face meetings.... All who have been affected by another person's drinking is welcome to attend, whether you are still in the relationship or not.
I strongly suggest that you LET GO of evaluating his amends, even though you find others to enable your obsession about him and his amends... it is causing you misery, my friend. It's not a kind thing to do to YOU, please be kind to YOU.
You are POWERLESS over his using, his recovery, and how he made his amends.
You do have choices though... You can start this day over at any moment, go our and enjoy this beautiful day however you can.... You have the power to do the next most nurturing thing for YOU. A face to face meeting would connect you to others who understand, it will strengthen you again. You can also order some Al-Anon books to get you started on your healing journey.
Choose a different direction. THAT is how you get out of a black hole, not by doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 23rd of September 2016 04:16:56 PM
Hey numb - welcome to MIP....glad that you found us and glad that you shared. Both sides of the recovery world (AA & Al-Anon) work the same steps and the amends making comes up for all. I'm a double winner - meaning recovery in AA & Al-Anon. I can tell you that I have heard, seen, witnessed, obsessed and probably more to the many amends stories I have heard.
What I know it is not:
- It's not ever to be a process to place blame on another for anything.
- It's not a way to avoid consequences for behaviors or choices.
- It's not an eraser that wipes the slate clean.
- It's not a perfect apology.
What I've learned it is:
- A necessary step for one to heal, deal and live sober/serene.
- An attempt to right wrongs.
- A process where one doesn't always know how to act, be, do, etc.
- Ongoing.
So - I was a black-out drinker before recovery. When I got sober and got to this step, I did it to the best of my ability. I can sit here and say I was scared, full of fear and shame and figured nobody really cared. What I found out is that most people were kind and wanted to understand/forgive. Others - i could have served them breakfast, lunch, dinner & snack for the rest of their lives and they would never forgive me. In either situation, my approach was the same and I was told by my sponsor to do my part and then let go and let God.
As a black-out drinker, I heard from many, "Well - do you remember when .................................................................................." Recovery is a program of rigorous honesty. I had to say to that person, I do not remember. The honest answer was I did not remember many, many things. Making amends is a humbling experience and I learned a ton about me, and others that first time.
I got smarter - the next time I did this, I would actually explain more about my using patterns and apologize in general for all things I did that caused harm to them, including these I know of and any others I don't know of. It got easier as more was revealed to me and I learned more about kindness, compassion, being genuine and humble.
As an Al-Anoner, all I ever got from one of my three qualifiers was, "I am making amends. I am sorry I was a horrible son. I can't even recall all the ways I hurt you, but I know I did." I was not impressed at all with this effort. However, what I decided is that any effort is better than no effort and I could accept it or reject it. It is not my job to teach another how to make amends - that's imposing my will on them, which is how I landed in Al-Anon to begin with. I truly thought and felt that I could control others and mold them to be what I thought they should be. As I look back, my approach was not logical or sane - add the disease in the mix and it's a recipe for disaster, hurt feelings, etc.
I am sorry that your interaction with him caused you to slip backwards. I believe as said above me that you are a great candidate for Al-Anon. It's for any family or friend who has been affected by this disease. We work hard to keep the focus on us and to learn more about what makes us think, do, act and react as we do to the disease, the diseased and often in every day life. My experience is this disease ruins communication abilities in most parties and if one was lacking before the disease arrived, it's again not a situation set up for success.
I used to be one that wanted closure when there was an end. I needed to understand why the relationship was over, why we lost the game, why the accident happened, why, why, why....What I learned in recovery is I am inquisitive and curious about many, many things but often my why questions were an attempt to find a place/person to put blame on. I no longer do that as much - in failed relationships, I truly believe that it takes 2 to get along and it takes 2 to not get along. My thinking and attitudes have changed drastically with recovery and I can now choose better ways to live my life and thrive instead of just survive.
Find some local meetings and check them out. There is always hope and help in recovery. Keep coming back!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Ouch 2HP. Im not obsessed! And in what way are people talking to me enabling me? I was simply asking a question. And yes this is something that hurts and bothers me. And im trying to understand. That is not obsessive that is processing through what has happened. Think i might have come to the wrong place. I thought this would be a safe kind environment...not a kick them when they are down. Telling people basically not to speak with me. Thank god this isnt face to face! I already had someone rip through my self esteem i dont need another person doing it.
numb - we speak Al-Anon here.....it is a different way of living. We do not believe in a victim mentality, and all the words she used are program language. Only you can decide if you're in the right place of not but wanted you to know that nothing she responded with is considered offensive. We are direct and honest as that's what we learn works in recovering from the affects of the disease.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Iamhere thanks for the explanation of what youbwent through in your amends process. I do not feel like a victim btw. I was just looking for insite as to what goes on in their heads when they do their amneds...is it just for them to check off the list...is it because they truely have remorse..ect. Your sharing helpped me have a little more insite and i thank you. I get that people should not play the victim...but seriously if i had dronned on for days weeks years about this ...than yes hit me with a brick and tell me to move on. People should treat each other with a little more compassion! Yes i am hurt but I am in no way a victim....i played right next to him...but i just as i stated before was looking for insite as to what this was all about. When someone is new maybe get their story before you clobber them. This is the same as saying i deserved what i got.
Hi Numb sorry that you did not feel welcomed I have read and re- read each member's response and I do believe each person attempted to be courteous and respectful while providing their experience on the situation. In alanon we attempt to be honest and to say what we mean.Alanon meetings can and do help anyone who lives with or has lived with the disease of alcoholism We are changed because of the experience and need a program of recovery to reestablisH our self esteem and self worth
In reading about the attempt at amend from you bf I do not think that that was an acceptable amend and I am glad that you recognized it for what it was- A way to manipulate you and blame you.
An amend is a simply action where by we own our part in a difficult situation , be honest about the hurt that we caused and then resolved to change our actions. Do keep coming back You are not alone
Iamhere thanks for the explanation of what youbwent through in your amends process. I do not feel like a victim btw. I was just looking for insite as to what goes on in their heads when they do their amneds...is it just for them to check off the list...is it because they truely have remorse..ect. Your sharing helpped me have a little more insite and i thank you. I get that people should not play the victim...but seriously if i had dronned on for days weeks years about this ...than yes hit me with a brick and tell me to move on. People should treat each other with a little more compassion! Yes i am hurt but I am in no way a victim....i played right next to him...but i just as i stated before was looking for insite as to what this was all about. When someone is new maybe get their story before you clobber them. This is the same as saying i deserved what i got.
numb - what I have learned and I am a slow learner is that trying to figure out what another thinks, plans, is motivated by or ??? is a huge waste of my time and energy. We have a slogan (short sayings we use often to keep us grounded) - QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally....I shared this as I too don't see any issues in what's been written to you.
It is difficult to know what anybody else is thinking or feeling and even more so when it's a forum. You came and asked for some insight - we try to share ESH (experience, strength & hope) honestly - and we don't give advice. Each person you encounter will have their own style - look for similarities and intent vs. content when you can.
Your post is all about him, him, him - in Al-Anon, we try to focus on us vs. those who brought us here. I can't read your mind but hope you will find some meetings to get a better feeling for what Al-Anon is all about.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I too felt that the words used might have meant "don't talk to this person, she just wants enabling" or something to that effect which would be pretty harsh for someone's first post (or any really). I'm sure it was just an unfortunate misunderstanding. I hope you'll come back numb because there's plenty of help and support to be found here and you're definitely in the right place.
I can understand how difficult it must be to have all of the old emotions dragged up again by your ex; I would find that painful too, but it is possible to develop the tools to protect yourself from this kind of behavior and maintain peace and even happiness regardless of what others do or say- and that's (my understanding of) the point to al-anon. I hope you'll find it as helpful as I have.
-- Edited by MissM on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:44:54 PM
Miss m. Thanks for your kind words. I was starting to feel like my ex made me feel and it threw me ( u know your too sensitive, u misunderstand, it always has to be about your feelings) and of course my post came accross as him him him. Who here came here just for entertainment. I would think that everyone here was were i am at at some point. I am a truely caring person and am beginning to realize most people are not. Words can hurt. And as far as "direct and honest" well that is exactly what he said in his amends..word for word...so now i know where it came from. Is that what this group is about? Its one thing to be honest another to treat me like i am trying to be a victim. I did not ask for pity. I just asked a what i thought simple question.
-- Edited by numb on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:14:09 PM
-- Edited by numb on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:18:15 PM
Seeing as i new i would think that there would be more compassion and understanding. And hey maybe ...just maybe explain in a non hurtful way how this works. I was not the alcoholic! Its like blaming me for staying through that hell. Ive read through others post and am at a loss as to why these comments were made to me and not others...And in what way is it "enabling" me if someone answers a question? Geesss.
-- Edited by numb on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:28:12 PM
-- Edited by numb on Saturday 24th of September 2016 12:08:31 AM
Things perhaps don't always come across as intended, it's something we all have to work around on a discussion board sometimes.
I've never been in the position of having someone try to make amends to me (well not "officially"); the purpose I don't believe is to make the recipient feel miserable though and it doesn't sound as though it was a great experience for you.. it's also true that no-one can know what his motivation was or what his recovery looks like.
How you can start to heal yourself and find peace regardless of any of that- that's something most of us here understand and strive towards. Have you considered a face to face meeting or picked up any of the al-anon literature? Those would be great ways to start out. I promise it's well worth it
I did one right before the beakup. It wasnt a pleasant experience. And i never went back. I was lectured because i was going to leave him that i needed to stay and detact with love. I felt that as long as i stayed he would never hit bottom. As my actions of staying would tell him it was ok. I didnt judge thers for staying i just thought for my situation it was best. I thought i would try here as maybe it would be a different experience. And didnt quite know what exactly an amends was about. And if this was normal.
-- Edited by numb on Saturday 24th of September 2016 01:53:21 AM
Not all meetings will feel right, it's generally suggested that you try 6 I think before deciding whether or not to continue.
"Stay or go" is no-one's business and part of what makes this work so well for me is the fact that my actions and decisions have to come from within and not from anyone else.
You won't agree with everyone however it's often said that you get a lot more out of the experience if you look for the similarities rather than the differences and if you read around here or go to more meetings you'll be surprised I bet by how very similar so many other people's stories and hurts, resentments etc are to your own.
"Were all here because we're not all there" is a saying I like and need to be reminded of myself at times; of course you'll find members you don't agree with or don't find helpful etc but you can "detach with love" and seek what helps you to move forward anyway.
It's what you choose to make it.
I hope you'll stick around and look for that which you find helpful.
Amends are supposed to be made "except when to do so would cause harm to another." Hence, this seems like a bs attempt at amends made too early and without clarity on what he was doing. So no. Not normal or right.
As far as the rest of this post, try not to be upset numb. I think most of us arrive at alanon obsessing over the A and not focusing enough on self. Understanding that as a normal state to start healing from rather than a diagnosis or label would help and I can see how you'd see what was said as the latter. I think the point is...What about you? If you turn the focus of this on to you, the questions that would arise when working an alanon program are about self care.
Is talking to him at all in your best interest or does it rip the bandages off newly healing wounds?
Can you detach some and not question your perceptions based off his actions? You seem to have known his amends were whack. You could have trusted your judgment there.
Also, what are your boundaries going to be with him? When it's about you, the focus is to protect yourself from harm. Is no contact the best boundary? Hang up if the blame game starts?
Look out for numero uno...you! You broke up with this guy cuz his using and crazy behavior....even in early recovery it isn't realistic to expect him to have changed his personality that much. I might hear someone's amends if they were showing themselves to be different and sincere. At the first sign that is not the case, I am doing myself an injustice listening or even thinking about the other persons lack of growth. Best to try and let that go and mover forward.
Sorry the whole ordeal threw you for a loop :( I had contact with my ex-A after breaking up and it screwed with my head too.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 24th of September 2016 09:45:48 AM
I have never had an amend directed at me. When my AH first got sober I was walking on eggshells just waiting for it. (We have been married since 1971 and he got into AA in 2000). I worried for nothing. No amends in words. But as I got wiser in AlAnon I realized that I sure did not even want him to try to talk to me about the crap things he did... and he doesn't remember. The kids also never got an "I'm sorry", and they were surely hurt as well.
Amends are supposed to be for healing for the one who is "doing" the amend..... it is not specifically for the recipient. If he gave you a crappy amend what did it hurt him? It was really just more piling on of the stuff that he has given you over the years. And you can't think that because he is "newly sober" that he is different. He may get different with lots of meetings and learning, but don't expect it. If you get it, then great. If you don't?
Now you have to take care of yourself.
-- Edited by maryjane on Saturday 24th of September 2016 04:16:08 PM
Numb - I'm sorry you had to hear his sorry-not-sorry. I've received enormous benefit and peace from Alanon. The hardest part for me in the beginning was the question, what is my part in all of this? I thought, you have got to be @$&*# kidding me!! What part is mine in this alcoholic @%##'s disaster that torments me and makes me feel xyz?!!! I didn't realize what the question was asking. It wasn't asking about him or my life with him, problems with him, mistakes he made. It was asking about me, my life, my reasons for allowing someone else's crazy be the reason I departed so far from who I was. It was all about me for me. I look back at my response to the idea and see how much anger and deflection I expressed at the notion of being introspective for my own benefit. We become effected by the disease of alcoholism without even realizing it. I was able to let go of so much damaging sorrow and anger when I understood the message in Alanon - that Alanon is for my own healing. I was able to learn I can control my own feelings and wasn't powerless to heartbreak caused by alcoholism. I learned I have power and choices to make, boundaries to set.
I listened to a podcast that was really humerous about a long term Alanon who recounted being told to just listen in the beginning. She painted a picture of herself as a young Jersey girl with so much to say and those she encountered as really rough older Jersey women. Her story went on to include people who were so kind and soft whose responses equally baffled her. She ends with the peace she found in the journey learning to think about herself and her treatment of herself and thoughts of what she wants, deserves, and will accept. The humor in the story helped me to continue to check Alanon out; that and the pain, anger and suffering I was feeling because of my alcoholic husband. I hope the dissconnect I experienced in the beginning resonates with you enough to make you keep coming back. There is such peace to be found through this program. Be good to yourself with the heavy stuff you are dealing with.
