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Post Info TOPIC: Atheists: How did you handle steps 3, 7 and 11?


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Atheists: How did you handle steps 3, 7 and 11?


I am interested in coming back to the program (two years mostly-away have not been a good idea), but I have some concerns about whether "you are free to choose your own Higher Power" applies all the way through, or if the program is built with the assumption that whatever "starter higher power" you choose, you eventually come to believe in a being that can love, have a will for you, etc.

I find "We Agnostics" from the AA big book particularly alarming, with its "something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics" (emphasis added) and its talk about how a code of morals or a better philosophy wasn't sufficient, and how progress happens once you come to believe in some sort of "creative intelligence" or "spirit of the universe", etc. In fact, it seems to rather clearly say atheism is something that must be overcome before you can really work the program. (On the other hand, that book was written in a time when atheism was still considered a weakness of character instead of a valid world outlook -- I'm hoping in modern times, the program may have turned out to be even more powerful and flexible than its authors knew, such that belief in a "being" type of higher power is unnecessary)

I don't think I am ever going to be able to have a concept of a Higher Power as a being that can take on human traits such as loving, having a will, etc. and certainly not a being that could will the universe into existence, or have the power to manipulate reality/perform miracles/etc.

Are there any other atheists out there who have remained atheists throughout the program and still been helped by it? I'd be particularly appreciative if you could share your experiences with how you handled steps 3, 7, and 11.



-- Edited by atheos on Sunday 20th of July 2014 05:52:53 PM

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~*Service Worker*~

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Atheos I do hear you and understand the dilemma. When I entered Al-Anon I chose the Al-Anon program and philosophy as my higher power. I could turn my will and my life over to the care of this program as my higher power in step three. I could humbly ask this program to help me shed my character defects as in step seven and I could meditate and pray on the philosophy and principles of Al-Anon as step 11 asks.

Using the Al-Anon philosophy and principles helped restore me to sanity. The program taught me to keep an open mind and I would find help. Please come back and trust the process

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THE HIGHEST FORM OF WISDOM IS KINDNESS

Talmud


~*Service Worker*~

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There are soooo many leads to the subject that you get almost an endless alternatives of Higher Powers to choose from. For me the closing statement to our meeting which says in part, "If you keep and open mind you will find help" allowed me to listen and learn even though I was born into a cultural religion which was deeply ingrained inside of my European white ancestors.  There was and is soooo much physical and material evidence that they had some proof right and then I still struggled from birth with it.  Next or somewhat next another cult/Christian/organization got a hold of my spouse after we were married and blew my family apart.  This group had a foundation belief that the God of my religions understanding was actually a church of the devil and she was addicted worse than any alcoholic/addict  I have ever experience.  Then came the power greater than myself which came in a bottle and had a "proof" rating on the label.  That was higher power for me because it actually came with a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual reaction...still it only worked once and boy that once has lasted.  I attempted to carry on with my original/cultural belief only alcohol was much more powerful and I resorted to my own highest power/ego with will until I lost my mind and my emotions shredded and I was led/directed/manipulated by something outside of myself into the Al-Anon Family Groups and was first suggested to make a "door knob" my higher power if I couldn't believe in anything "other" because a door knob can open a door that I couldn't without one...boy were they crazy smart.  Then came a closing to my home group one night which was done by "John" a blackfoot indian who almost refused to close the group because he didn't know or understand the "Christian" prayer and God and after I asked him to do it as a blackfoot indian ended the meeting with a conversation with his "Creator Father...." which had me holding my breath while he did it.  I just did it again remembering his conversation.  I wanted to know a relationship like that so I removed the door and the door knob to my "higher power" room and allowed everyone and anyone to enter if they would just "help" me understand like you are doing here.   I attempted to rejoin my church which I was very active in only my developing higher power started asking me questions the answers to which suggested that I look further.  There is no human form and then often my higher power takes on that form as it uses others to lead and teach me...others like yourself.  Certainly this post allows me to investigate and learn more...getting higher power.  My higher power takes at will the form of any gender or both and/or any object or event which causes me to understand I'm being touched spiritually...internal awarenesses leaving me with greater understanding and proof. 

This is asking you to "keep and open mind...you will find help" and for me the help I got and thru who I got it came from a power greater than myself that knew I would benefit from it and become more than if I had not. 

Consider that some HP used the Oxford movement to start this "recovery process" from which millions have attained better more useful and successful lives and that many of us have arrived at higher powers diverse from the Oxford tap root I'd say...just for me...that a higher power is indeed bigger and smarter and more empathetic and  compassionate and knowing than other possibilities. 

I never knew God though in high school I was a learning theologist which of course isn't the study of God and is the study of religions.  I was born in Hawaii within the influence of the Hawaiian culture which like John, the Blackfoot Indian, I believe in a creator father...my father who's name is Akua.  My creator father regardless of my earthly family started influencing my life at a very early age and while in recovery more actively and definitively.  Others in program have witness the process though I didn't need outside proof.

How do I handle steps 2, 3, 7, 11 and 12 as directed in communion with Akua and the fellowship. 

Leave yourself open and ....listen.  It is when you listen that your higher power speaks.

In support.  ((((hugs)))) smile



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~*Service Worker*~

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The principles and traditions of the program plus the slogans and the suggestions are a higher power that can restore balance and peace for us if we keep an open mind and work the steps with a sponsor's help. Although I do believe in a power greater than myself that I refer to God as is written in the program that might be different than yours, the program works for anybody who chooses to apply its wisdom.  There are some in program who refer to God as good orderly direction.  Others might see their HP as nature or awareness.

Glad you're here. Keep coming back.  I've been in the program for many years and those who believe in a deity as their HP, those who doubt the existence of a deity, and those who don't believe in any deity co-exist nicely while all work the program with the HP that works for them.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 20th of July 2014 08:49:54 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 20th of July 2014 08:56:06 PM

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



~*Service Worker*~

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Just switch the focus from what you don't believe in to what you do. You can make the program, recovery, or any of the broad principles of the steps your higher power (hope, love, courage). So, if your higher power was the group/alanon/the program, you would give up your will (step 3) by going to meetings consistently, being open to feedback, sharing with a sponsor, and walking the walk. You would do step 7 by admitting character defects to the group/program/sponsor and being receptive to feedback, working on humility, trusting that your fellow alanoners and sponsor will steer you right. Then you work step 11 by having constant contact with the program through meetings, calling people, talking with sponsor, doing readings, meditating on the readings.

So simple. I know dozens of people who have done it this way. I also would ask you to question whether or not your agnosticism or atheism is really just an excuse to bail on the program whenever you get busy or don't feel like working on it any more because I think you've gotten these answers before. I only say this because I've seen it in AA countless times - People use it as an excuse to relapse, reject AA, and stay sick/drunk and in and out of the program in a limbo state. I don't want that for you with alanon.

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Even though I have a strong spiritual side, my initial higher power was the desire to not live in chaos anymore - the desire to get out of the mess my life had become and back to safety.

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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France


~*Service Worker*~

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For me things are created by someone. We could be looking at several hand carved wood things. You might ask me who made that one? I would say well no one. you respond, well someone had to make it!.

For me its the same thing. There is a creator. The creator is my HP.



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Putting HP first, always  <(*@*)>

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~*Service Worker*~

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I called myself an atheist my whole adult life, then someone said that when you say you dont believe in god, your actually believing in his/ her existence in order to not believe, kind of thing. I have a higher power in my life, its not the god of my childhood with the white beard up in the sky, its a feeling or logic and reason, Ive never been great at maths but my higher power is a bit like maths, not sure if this makes sense but its just plain, no frills, truth of things. 1+1=2, it just is. My higher power is the weather, the seasons, tides, nature, it just is what it is. This view helps me flow through my days rather than swim against the tides. An alcoholic just is what tney are, they are part of this higher power that I cant control or change or fix. I pray now too, I see it as sending out my energy into the universe kind of thing, it makes me feel better and it works for me. Sometimes things happen so perfectly that I feel I have a higher power driving it, sometimes I can connect with it and feel it other times not so much. Im trying to go with the flow of things, not have any rules around it, its mine and probably doesnt fit in with other peoples 100% but its good enough. Hope this helps.x

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Atheos, I think this is a really important question and not addressed nearly as often/in depth as it needs to be. I am a convinced atheist who grew up religious and I don't think I will ever believe in a divine being again. I, too, was disturbed by the way much of the literature addresses the issue of athesim/agnosticism in members, and I felt the main takeaway message was something along the lines of "don't worry, you'll get over it and once you do everything will work out."

However, I have been very lucky to be a member of a face-to-face that has been extremely supportive and accepting with regard to my atheism (that is, they pretty much don't make an issue of it; they treat me just like any other member and focus on my growth and struggles in the program rather than on my lack of religion).  This gave me space to figure out how I could apply the program to myself in a way that doesn't conflict with my beliefs. 

I think you have already taken the key step, which is asserting that your Higher Power doesn't have to be a being. My Higher Power, which works extremely well for me but is cumbersome to put into words, is "the infinite human potential to be good." What I mean by "good" here is even more cumbersome to put into words; I don't mean "goody two-shoes" like smiling when I'm angry and bending over backwards to help people at my own expense (I've learned in Al-Anon that this is enabling, not good, but in our culture we sometimes confuse the two things). What I do mean is "good" as in "strong, healthy, compassionate, sane, reasonable"--pretty much all the positive ways of dealing with life that human beings are capable of. I don't believe in a divine being, but I do believe that the human potential for good is infinite, and I believe this because of all the strong, healthy, compassionate, yet appropriately boundary-setting people that I have been fortunate enough to know. I also think humans have infinite potential for destructiveness, but this is about my Higher Power so I chose the good side :)

Once I chose this Higher Power of my own understanding, applying it to the steps felt very natural. 

Step 3: I made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the infinite human potential to be good (strong, sane, healthy, loving, assertive, etc). This is effective for me because before I took this step, my will and my life were in the hands of my less-developed, unassertive, scared, conflict-fleeing, resentful, unreasonable, immature self. I was not making good decisions and life was unmanageable. For me, taking step 3 was a commitment to living a healthier, happier life; humans are capable of living so much better than I was, and I even personally know humans who provide evidence of this to me, and if they can do it who says I can't do it too?

Step 7: I am working on this step right now. I am humbly asking that the infinite human potential to be good etc. remove my shortcomings. Now, because of the nature of the Higher Power I have chosen, as I currently understand this step, I will be required to do a lot of work to make this happen. My Higher Power makes it possible for me to become removed of my shortcomings; however, because my Higher Power is a "potential" and not a "being," all it does is hold open that possibility; if I want to live up to that potential, then I will need to make it happen by monitoring and changing my own behavior, making better choices, examining and adjusting my attitudes, etc. That said, I'm not sure that this is all that different from how it works for those with a "being" Higher Power, as some very religious members of my group have taken this step and still take responsibility for making sure they reduce their character defects and improve on their strengths through consistent practice over time, rather than expecting their divine being to magically take all the defects away at once. For me, the important thing about this step is not that it makes my character defects magically evaporate (it hasn't); rather, it allows me to believe it is even possible for me to be rid of these defects, which was unthinkable to me before I started this program.

Step 11: I seek through study/self reflection and meditation (rather than "prayer and medication") to improve my conscious contact with the infinite human potential to be good etc., seeking only what the infinite human potential to be good etc. would direct me to do/say/what perspective to take on the situation, and the power to carry that out. I haven't formally taken this step with my sponsor yet, but I am trying to apply it to my daily life as much as possible and find it very helpful. In a nutshell, it reminds me to slow down, remember that my first knee-jerk response is usually not the best way to handle a situation, and reflect/meditate on what would be the best/healthiest way to respond instead. This might sound really boring and mundane but I don't see it that way; I have been amazed by some very wise people's ability to respond to difficult situations with graciousness and integrity, and I do feel like there is something awe-inspiring about that. So taking this step when I'm faced with a difficult situation allows me to tap into that, and hopefully make a better choice than I would have otherwise. Meanwhile, I continue to make steady growth as a person by taking this step regularly.

So, this is what's working wonderfully for me. That doesn't mean it will work for you, but I just wanted to put out there that it is possible to be an atheist and fully work this program. I don't feel that my atheism has hindered me in the program at all; again, a lot of that is no doubt thanks to the wonderfully accepting and supportive members in my home group, as they gave me the space to do what I needed to do and didn't try to push anything on me. Al-Anon has done such wonderful things for my life and I hate to think anyone might miss out on that because of a conflict with the Higher Power aspect of the program. 

 

 



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~*Service Worker*~

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Can your HP be a "higher" part of your own self? A part that is present but you do not actively have control over?
Like, you know when you try all day to remember something but, it isn't until you are relaxed and doing something else...suddenly it comes to you. Or when there is a complex task that you can only perform when you are distracted by something else and as soon as you concentrate you can't do it...doesn't that tell you that there is another part of your being that is at work when you are not thinking?
Whether HP is within or a separate entity doesn't matter very much as far as I can see. There is another force, a very clever and intuitive force, that does it's best work in me when I STOP trying to "mind control" everything (by thinking through scenarios over and over...he will say this, then i will say this, then he will say that and i will say this...)
When I quiet my mind and trust that something cleverer than "me" is at work, things start working. It could well be a part of my own mind that can only work when I can manage to quiet the "lower' part  that likes to chatter and complain and micro-manage everything. Maybe that's what this spiritual program helps us to achieve.

 



-- Edited by missmeliss on Wednesday 23rd of July 2014 01:18:32 PM

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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)



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Hello Atheos,

A similar question was asked at F2F meeting once. Someone suggested that when you hear references to God or a higher power that you think of it as Good Orderly Direction (see? GOD) No one in this program will question you about your faith but there is something to be said for turning over your worries, fears and stress to someone else. If it is called higher power then that is OK by me. When I first joined Al-anon I would have prayed to a tree if it could have eased my mind. I was powerless over alcohol and I was lost at sea as to how to survive until I took care of myself.

I think everybody needs a little Good Orderly Direction now and then.

((( hug )))




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