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Post Info TOPIC: Boundaries/Expectations


Senior Member

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Posts: 472
Date:
Boundaries/Expectations


Kinda confused about this, I am not sure what it means to have boundaries, but yet don't have expectations? Can anyone explain this. It seems to me if you have boundaries, these are like expectations....???



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Veteran Member

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Expectations are external, boundaries are internal

Expectations are what we have with other people, usually after they fail to meet them repeatedly, and then we lay down what we mistakenly call "a boundary" <insert behavior modification here> such as " I need you to call if you are going to be home late, especially if I have prepared dinner" after (s)he has come home late for dinner repeatedly, with an expectation and -wrongfully labeled boundary- we repeat this over and over getting angrier and angrier, whereas with a -boundary- we say if you _____ I will _______

 

Boundaries are internal ways to take distance and protect ourselves from other peoples actions, we may say boundaries out loud or not, but in this instance we would say "If You are late for dinner and don't call again I will  not prepare dinner for you for a month


and then if (s)he is late one more time, and then subsequently comes home on time even after that I would prepare my dinner, but not theirs and sit down and enjoy it, whether they were there or not

It can even be more dramatic, such as "If you ever hit me again, I will Leave you and call the Police" or even "If you continue to drink and lie I will be forced to leave you not "you need to change your behavior" but "these are the actions I am going to take", and the absolutely -CRITICAL- part is holding up our end of the boundary, both for us, AND for them, because if we don't we teach both them AND us to not respect us, to not believe we have enforcable boundaries, because we don't, and in my experience that is as equally unhealthy for me as it is for them, we -both- get sick if I have a -negotiable boundary-, I have leanred this both in my personal life and my professional one, it doesn't mean we don't negotiate or have "rigid thinking" but boundaries are "bottom lines" and as such aren't negotiable, I mean even countries to change boundaries (borders) go to war, and the stronger subjugates the weaker, and then "changes the border", I have found the same is true in my interpersonal relationships, if I don't enforce my boundary it teaches us both codependent manipulation, and many other forms of covert warfare or even full frontal warfare, it's just unhealthy with bad results for me

It's said that an expectation is a resentment waiting to happen, because in this instance we are expecting someone to behave in way that -we- want, even if we think it is fair, and it very well may be, it may be a -bottom line- or -deal breaker- behavior, but the single most important thing about boundaries is coming up with realistic ones and then holding to them no matter what, otherwise we just teach people our boundaries are meaningless

I spent years wondering why my "boundaries" seemed to work with some poeple but not others, and I automatically labeled the people who didn't "respect my boundaries" as wrong, bad, and sick, when the truth of the matter standing in front of somebody saying the same thing over and over isn't me enforcing a boundary, it's me attempting to modify or control their behavior and then getting sick, literally sick when it doesn't work, I was going to a hardware store for bread, or I was going to a "dry well for water"

Today I try and use "I feel" statements, lets use the dinner as an example, "I feel when you come home late without calling when I have been cooking you dinner, it shows a lack of respect for me, and if you come home late again without calling, I won't prepare your dinner for a month"

end of conversation, no excuses, no

J:ustify

A:rgue

D:efend

E:xplain

This is how I feel and it is non-negotiable, as is my boundary

If my expectation is that this person who has repeatedly come home late without calling will miraculously begin to call and begin respecting me, I have put a guaranteed resentment in the bank, because in my experience if you have to explain something to somebody like common courtesy and respect more then 3 times they are not likely to suddenly "get it", however, if I put down a boundary (an interior action) I can now protect myself from this behavior, hell I might even start going OUT to dinner and might not be home when (s)he gets home

Boundaries are internal, and they -NEVER- ever ever involve someone else changing their behavior, it's how I protect myself from people who -don't- change their behavior, as opposed to -behavioral modification-, which I misttok for boundaries for very many years, there is by definition, no way someone can "not respect my boundary" because my boundary is mine, not theirs, and if they supposedly "don't respect my boundary" I either am in -the wrong relationship- or -have failed to enforce my boundary- it's not on them, it's on me to enforce my own boundaries, whereas the expectation would be "they WILL respect my boundary" and then get upset when they don't...for the 300th time, then maybe give them a lecture about how "If nothing changes, nothing changes" and "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" and completely miss the irony of what I am saying

So expectations are what I have of other people, ways I want -them- to behave, usually after they don't, and boundaries are a way to protect me from others.

Boundaries can also be covert nearly, such as my father for many years liked to say fairly mean (but true) about my mother and her side of the family, for years I tried to get him to stop and all we'd do is fight, I finally learned to say -the moment- he started doing that "oh someone is at the door" or "I'm getting another call" or "I'm going outside to smoke" and he stopped doing it, he just doesn't do it any more

One thing I learned about "defences" is by nature people attack them, that's why they are called "defences, so when I got "defensive" I invited "attack", with a boundary...it's hard to explain, but it's not a defence, it's a way to remove oneself from harms way emotionally speaking, and when my boundaries are healthy, they not only get respected but they almost seem to disappear because they aren't needed, but they HAVE to be firm.

I wrote on our AA forum for example about helping a family member get sober, and I couldn't do it (my sister) because I lacked the necessary emotional strength to hold as firm with my boundaries as I could with "anonymous" young men, with them I could be merciless, first sign of any BS and they were out, no if's ands or buts, and truthfully, they ALL got sober, and stayed that way for the most part, but with my sister I wasn't able to enforce my boundaries nearly as strongly, they proved to be "negotiable" my sister didn't end up getting sober until years later and we both ended up incredibly angry and hurt with each other, because I was unable to maintain my boundaries with her, I had "expectations" instead, and all it did was harm both of us because I was unable to maintain my boundaries



-- Edited by linbaba on Thursday 19th of May 2011 02:46:51 AM

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~*Service Worker*~

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Thanks for this great explanation. That helps me...

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~*Service Worker*~

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I love Linbaba's explanation!

For me, expectations are things that I have of other people - how I get my hopes up that someone is going to do something, or expect that they will.

Boundaries are in place regardless of anyone else's actions. I put the boundary in place FOR ME, with the only expectation being on myself to follow through with enforcing it. I don't expect or not expect other people to respect the boundary - it just simply exists. If it's violated, then I do what I need to in order to protect myself.

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~*Service Worker*~

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Linbaba said it all well! I needed to hear this share today, so thanks all!

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To accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference. 

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~*Service Worker*~

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I understand linbaba what you are saying about having defenses that get attacked, as if it tempts or taunts others to attack us for them.  And they do.  We all have two simultaneous realities - we have the conscious one we project outwardly, and with the things we say on the surface.  We also have the subconscious feelings and thoughts that we also project to the world and other people.  Often, people react to the subconscious stuff we project outwardly.  Think of your brain, like a radio receiver.  Whatever "channel" we focus on, is the "channel" we get back.

If I operate with my own boundaries in tact and take care of me and not expect/assume that others will care about my own personal needs.  No, it is up to each individual to be concerned about their own needs and to get them met in a healthy and resepctful way.  Our feelings can be a barometer - if I "feel worse" around a person, I can avoid them or I can avoid conversations that get me triggered - for ex, certain ppl I no longer discuss specific topics with bc it always creates drama (or a fight) and I dont have to defend myself to anyone.  That is between me and my HP, it is no one else's business what they think about me -- my concern needs to be how well I think and feel about myself.

See before I would compromise what I felt or wanted or needed for other people, thinking this is how to get others to like and love you.  It isnt.  All it shows others is that I think I am disposable and then since they dont feel so great about themselves either, they abuse me and I let them before having boundaries.  Now, I dont have to listen or believe what they say, bc I have a boundary that says I love me first, before I consdier hearing your opinion - my own is stronger in me first bc I choose to focus on loving me.  What we focus on - grows.

A great and useful boundary is to say to another - "maybe you are right about that" or "I will consider that and get back to you later"  this shows them that I did hear them and I will think about it (whether I do or not) bc today I can detach from how they will react to it - their reactions, feelings, processes, issues, thoughts are none of my business and it only hurts me if I give them that power over me.

We use expectations as some kind of insurance or guarantee that some behavior will be "set in stone".  It is about control, us wanting control and a guarantee and there is no such thing as that in life.  Life is a process, the only destination is death, who wants to rush that?  I think we get a false sense of control from the expectations and when they dont work out as we hope or think they should -- we get very hurt by them. 

Letting go of all expectations, allowed me to tap into the possibilities HP has in store for us - it offers us more choices and freeedom.  Reality is right now, this moment.  Life is a process of these right now moments unfolding into the next.  The future is not real and does not exist, the past is over and done with.  You can be free and live in the moment and when you do that (and stop trying to control the day, the universe, other people) and get busy changing what you can control -- you become empowered.  Life is so much more then merely existing or surviving.  Thriving takes being connected to HP and continually letting go to see something new, something different then we ever had before - and it works. 

I was told letting go is the easiest thing in the world.  We alanons complicate life unneccesarily.  Resistence creates pain, learn to flow and let go.  I think we grasp and hold on out of fear and we want some security.  Realizing that all humans dont know what will happen in the future, we are all in that same boat.  Life would be so boring if we all knew what to expect, letting that go opens you up to a whole new world of living and being.  Peace and happiness are states of mind, they arent "feelings".  It is a way of living and being.  As you get busy changing you, you will begin to feel better and see the catastrophic way of control.  It feels better not to be manipulative, to accept life and to feel in the moment - that is my job for living.  Others will have to do that for themselves or they wont.  It is not up to me to change them or show them how to be - if I do then I get sucked back into my ego and it is in my ego where the expectations hurt me.  The ego runs on fear.   When I release my fear and take actions that offer me self resepct (in following my boundaries) then I operate with loving kindness and respect and dignity, that is how I approach ppl.  Today if I see they are disresepctful, I can still protect myself and allow them to be who they are with detachment and understanding.  They arent my job or my project.  I can rescue myself and I apprecaite me when I do.

We are not entitled to run others' lives or give them "rules" to live with us by.  No, boundaries are about us and for us.  I had to define what healthy was and what my own needs were before I could set any boundaires with consequences I was willing to carry out on my own behalf.   Telling someone else to resepct our boundaries is  a way we try to control them. They can accept it or not.  Today I can tell by their behavior if they are respectful or not and today I choose to surround myself with respectful ppl.  So ya, I changed where I lived, I changed work, I changed bf's - everything had to change for me.  I am so grateful.  Alanon is all about YOU and what you need for your life. 



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Linbaba - I hit a low point today and came to this site and your post was the first thing I read. Wow, the universe is really working hard today. This is the best explanation of a boundary I've ever read. I am struggling with a situation I don't know how to handle. My BF is an alcoholic/addict coming up on 5 years clean. He also had ADHD. He has a heart of gold and treats me very, very well. Life with him is sometimes difficult because of the ADHD. He has trouble managing his daily affairs because his mind is so scattered, even with meds. He is carefully monitored and doesn't abuse his prescritptions, BTW. But I have slipped into the "mother" role just to "help him out" - which is really not good for either of us. Trying to back off on that. But here's my issue: Every now and then, maybe a couple of times a year...his rage gets the best of him and he "snaps" and verbally goes off on someone: a contractor slacking off on a home improvement project, my niece's boyfriend after he almsot got physical with her (had to stop him from going after the kid physically). This has NEVER been directed at me in the 4 years we've been together. We rarely even fight...but this past weekend I said something that triggered him and he screamed expletives at me in front of friends. I got royally pissed and went off on him in return (How DARE you speak to me like that in public when you don't even do that to me in private) and he told me to back off, but I wouldn't shut up because hell, if he can scream at me at like, I can have my say! But then he backed me up against a wall and said, "If you don't shut up I'm gonna knock you out." I was STUNNED. This man loves me and treats me like gold...and he turned into a monster right before my eyes. I called a cab and went home. He was angry at me for days. I was expecting that he'd right away realize how out of line he was and apologize, and instead I got the "you pushed me to it" lecture about what a bitch I was. I don't care WHAT I said (and all it was about was that I was feeling ignored and wanted him to come hang with me at a party) - NOTHING warrants that kind of behavior. So here I am expecting an apology which I eventually got, but it was not heartfelt. I know he believes that maybe he went a little too far but that he wasn't out of line. And he's only apologizing to smooth things over and get things back to normal. Meanwhile, I feel like my best friend turned on me and attacked me like a damn rabid dog. I have set the boundary: "If you threaten physical violence against me again, I am leaving you." He understands that. However, my dilemma is....I feel like part of our relationship has been ruined beyond repair. Once you cross a line like that, how do you "forget" it just happened? I WANT a heartfelt apology...but at this point, I feel like words are BS and his actions already spoke volumes. I need to detach - and am trying to do that. But I am falling into codependent self-pity big time: after all I've done for him, and all of my support, and all of his declarations of undying love, HOW COULD HE DO THIS TO ME?? I know you're all smiling right now because you can relate. Any insights? I don't want to leave but right now I am weighing the pros and cons of this relationship and quite honestly, he's got the better end of this deal. The world revolves around him. Our relationship has become somewhat secondary to some of his other interests, and meanwhile, I feel alone and honestly I need to get a life. I need to get my own interests. I have a few, but I feel like I have no real purpose in life. Very aimless and sad today....

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lyn, this is the cycle of abuse & manipuatlion that we are all in, in a relationship with an A.  I too used to think, if I do this for you, then you will "pay me back" with the same behavior in return, although that rarely happens.  They treat us worse and we keep looking at them like they are a saint, bc they compliment us or are nice sometimes. 

See, the fact that you saw him treating other people one way, yet still be kind to you - that is selective looking.  It means you are falling for the manipulation and the grooming he is doing to you now.  A's do groom us and they learn our buttons and how to manipulate us, bc we are also manipulative. 

Your life should not revolve around another person, that is unheatlhy and a sign that you are in the right place and a codependent enabler.  Practice focusing on YOU and what your needs are and how to get them met yourself in a healthy way.

See, if I say, ya but I am here holding your hand all day and sacrificing myself for you - all that shows them is that we dont value ourselves.  We dont get points in heaven for suffering, we dont get points from others in this world for it either.  Let it begin with you, focus on YOU and take your life back.

If you already told him, if he is violent to you, you are leaving and he pushed you against a wall and humilated you in public and you stay... so dont set any boundaries you cannot carry out the consequence on.  Say things you will do for sure, not what you hope you might do.  Change takes courage.   I would call a women's shelter too and get some info from them about how to handle what happened.  All I can say, is it does sound like it is progressing (the disease) and it always gets worse.   Do what you have to do to take care of you and be safe.  It seems to me like more red flags on the wall and I would not be shocked if he did hit you.  Please call the police and have a safe place to go, if you are living with this A. 

The problem with saying a "threat" and then doing nothing about it, is just that, it is an empty threat.  A boundary is not a rule or a threat or an ultimatum.  A boundary is what you can do to keep you safe.  Please dont be "blinded" by his awesome-ness when he is acting nice to you.  A's are master manipulators and excellent actors.

The apologies mean nothing, it is just a way for them to continue to abuse us.  Listen with your eyes and keep safe.

Battered Womens Justice Project: 1-800-903-0111.

 National Organization for Victims Assistance: 1-800-879-6682

 National Resource Center for Domestic Violence:  1-800-537-2238

US Domestic Violence Hotline/ General Information:  1-800-799-7233

SOS  1-800-767-9470

SIA (another 12 step group) Survivors of Incest Anonymous

I have ADHD and I have been medicated for a year now.  The medication is not "magic." ADHD's have intense feelings, intense emotional outbursts, a lack of impulse control, they can be inappropriate about their feelings and with other people - as in "socially awkward" - all of that goes along with the disease of ADHD as well as self medicating and symptoms of depression -- none of which is an excuse or a license to abuse other people.  Each person still  must take responsibility to control themselves.



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Member

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I am quite familiar with domestic violence as my sister was a victim and her ex spent years in jail for what he did to her. That's why his statement that I "pushed him to it" scared the hell out of me, because that's classic behavior from an abuser. I guess what I get stuck on is that even though he's got significant sober/clean time, he's still an alcoholic/addict with those behaviors - and always will be. I expect him to be "normal" and forget that ADHD can be severe. To be clear, I did NOT have a boundary in place with him about threatening me. It never evern occurred to me that I would have to discuss that situation with him! 90% of the time he is the always happy, laughing/joking guy. So I didn't ignore a boundary - it wasn't there yet. But it IS now. And I WILL enforce it. Focusing on me...I am not sure where to start. I have friends, I work full time and am very successful financially, I have some hobbies. But I feel aimless. I know I have empty nest syndrome since my kids moved out. The BF has kind of taken their place for me...I focus on him where I used to focus on the kids. I just don't know what I want to DO with my life. I am starting to volunteer at the animal shelter and am hoping that will help occupy my time and also give me a sense that I am accomplishing something and contributing to the world in some way. I am just depressed enoughas to be unmotivated but not depressed enough for it really to be noticeable or require treatment. I dunno...just feel lost. But your words about the manipulative aspect of this relationship, and the acting abilities of alcoholics/addicts has really given me some stuff to ponder.....

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Dear oldergal, Wow! this is a great thread--getting lots of thought provoking responses.  I have been very interested in digesting them, myself.  I think some GREAT explaiations of the terms.

I'm kind of guessing here, but I am wondering if you are struggling with the question of the difference about when to not have expectations of a person and when is it "safe" or "ok" to do so?  Am I on the right track or no?  It is more about the applications(at this point) than the definition of expectation?

If your answer is in the affirmative---I will be happy to add my take on it.  I have struggled with the same question.

Sincerely, Otie 

 

 



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Yes, that  is also a part of the question Otie, when is it safe to  have expectations.....

I would like to here your input.....

Oldergal



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Senior Member

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Hi, oldergal.  Before I respond to your last post, let me say that this is simply my own personal way of looking at  the question of: When is it "safe" to have expectations?

To me it basically boils down to reasonable predictability and knowledge of the person/persons involved.  And, of course, perdictability involves every bit of knowledge (direct and indirect) about the whole person in question.  Giving a lot of consideration to past behaviors, I think, is wise.

I think that the very sticky wicket, personally, is to avoid unrealistic wishes and fantasy about the person involved. This brings to mind, for example, how we view a person that we are newly involved with romantically----and then contrast that with how we view them, say, three to five years later when we have amassed a great deal more knowledge about the person.  Accuracy of predictability certainly does increase doesn't it.

I think that when we see people in alonon posting here and they say "have no expectations", they are referring to relationships with addicted persons for the most part.  Addictions can render perple very unpredictable at times and wipes out their usual sense of responsibility to those around them---especially us loved ones.  Our hopes and dreams are in peril when they are being tended by those who are not capable of caring.

I believe that even though we are required to be individually responsible, we are, at the same time, interdependent as human beings.  I view healthy relationships as involving a degree of expectations of those around us---especially those who are intimate and closely involved with us.  Marriage vows are LOADED with expectations.

The trick, I think, is to use our intellect, instincts, etc. to dissern as much as possible where it is wise to place expectations and where it is likely to leave us in tears and remorse.  All of this talk about having low expectations is about protecting the self from the self centerdness of those whose major allegence is to mind altering substances.  Not meant, in my observation, to apply to every single person that we know.  I suspect that is where the expression of "don't go to the hardware store for a loaf of bread"  Or, don't expect people to give what they don't have.

I suspect that most of us that have been closely connected with a person driven by alcoholism have had our boundries assaulted and our expectations ripped to shreds many times over.  It can make swiss cheeze out of our filters after a while.  Thus, all this discussion.  It is hard to know what is reasonable and "normal" many times.

It follows, that the more we learn self trust, the easier it is to know who else to trust with our tender emotions.

Having said all this--ther is always risk involved.  Who among us has not cried bitter tears when someone dear to us has hurt/disappointed us?  ***However, in a healthy relationship, we can take our hurt and tears to the one who has hurt us and have the reasonable expectation that their caring and love for us will motivate them to help us dry our tears.  NOT SO with an active alcoholic/addict.

Dear oldergal, I have shared the way it looks from my perspective.  I hope that this is helpful in some way for you as you grapple with the concept.

Sincerely, smile, Otie



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~*Service Worker*~

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Thanks (( Otie )) that was excellently stated!   I did not know how to have boundaries, so yes, I was always eviscerated by the A's and other users/manipulators.  Developing boundaries taught me how to rely on myself, how to protect myself and how to accept (based on results) that some people are incapable of doing certain things.

I can have reasonable expectations that I will no longer compromise myself or let me down and that the store will be open at certain times - I no longer expect others to (necessarily) do what they "promise" anymore and then I cannot be hurt when plans fall apart sometimes -and- and this is the big one -- I no longer take it personally when outcomes dont work out the way I initially hope.   I feel more balanced in myself emotionally and I know that if plans dont go the way I hope - that is never the end of the world either, there is always some back up scenario and often things still do work out, just in an entirely different way.



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Senior Member

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Thank You Otie, and my friends in Alanon .... 

Your reply was very well written and meaningful to me......

Now that I have learned a little more about expectations, I understand that they have come naturally as a protection mechanism not to have expectations from a loved one who is sick w/alcoholism or any other addiction. But the boundaries are harder to have and keep and be true to yourself because all along you have been so giving and loving all your childs life and then it has to change and you have to become tough. My heart is so sick. I hate having to learn a different way. Your friend in Alanon. Oldergal



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Dear oldergal, I think I know where you are coming from.  The only alcoholicism that I have had to deal with in my personal life is with my children (although I have dealt a lot with it in my professional work--medical). 

It absolutely goes against everything our instincts and heart and culture have told us for so many years.  What mother is instructed when a baby is born to work on detachment and lowered expectations!??  As a matter of fact all the loving parents I have ever seen wish to build strong bonds and have high (or at least normal prosocial standards) standards for living. 

Then, as in my case, even in a home where there has been no alcohol/drug usage, the ugly head of DNA can crawl out of the shadows and undermine our life's work and love.  The consequences of this are as painful as anything I can think of.  It truly feels like a cross to bear for the rest of life. 

What I am saying to you may not be very politically correct to many of the people reading this---but I know that every mother reading this who is struggling with addictions in their young will relate to the fear, the social stigma (yes, that is what I said), confusion and almost undescribable pain that comes with the territory. 

To make the changes required to deal with our children are so counterintuitive and require us to "morf" into creatures that we never dreamed of.  I know that it is incumbent on us to learn special tools to deal with this, and whole new ways of thinking and reacting.  

What I am really saying is that others need to recognize that mothers can't do it in the snap of the finger.  Every change requires the effort of pulling a sword from the stone.  We need patience, understanding and loads and loads of support.  It is as if we are "special needs" victims of the disease.

I am working so hard on my faith right now to keep on going. Iam sure you are being tested in this way right now, also.  I send my love to you.  You are not alone.  You are in the company of all the other mothers.

Sincerely, and with understanding, Otiesmile

    



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