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I'm new to the board but not to Al-anon. Little bit of history...my husband is a recovering A. He is 6 months sober. We have been married 11 years and during the last two years he had an affair with a woman he worked with. His drinking career started about 16 years ago but escalated during the affair due to the guilt/shame.
He hit rock bottow in March/April time frame and then went to rehab. The affair is over and we are working on recovering our marriage as well as our own recovery process but it is slow and very painful.
I wanted to know if it is normal when alcoholics get out of rehab to not be interested at all in sex or affection. I'm really starved for it as I haven't really been getting any type of affection for 2+ years now. He says he just isn't interested in sex/affection and when I ask how he could have been so interested that he went off with another woman for two years and now suddenly not interested at all, he says he cannot explain to me what he doesn't understand himself.
I just was wondering if someone could enlighten me on what his mindset might be. I'm feeling pretty inadequate as a wife. We have intimacy every once in a great while and usually he can't climax. He's 34 and I'm 38 and I have kept myself up in terms of staying thin fit, looking nice, smelling good and trying to be attractive to him but I still feel like I come up short. He says he just working on work and his recovery. As far as the answer to not being able to climax... he says he had a stomach ache. Of course he often says he has a stomach ache if I try to initiate sex and the stomach ache usually is his excuse for not not being able to climax or some variation like I'm to tired. Ouch... just feel really rejected, lonely, and disconnected.
Is this normal are their guilt feelings involved here because of what he did, or do A's loose interest during recovery.... really confused! Also I noticed him not being able to climax right before the affair started..like he had become bored with me. He obviously performed well with her because it went on so long...what is wrong with me???
It's as if he has become very listless in life and in love. In life he doesn't have any outside interest or anything to talk about with me, just goes to work and AA comes home sits on the couch watches sports and doesn't talk with me unless I initiate conversation. In regad to sex, he is listless to... I have to do all the work.. he doesn't kiss me, touch me, he's just sort of there going through the motions but not there.
I don't have any answers for you, as I am pretty much in the same boat. Slightly different story, but with recovering AH with no interest in sex. As for me, I keep telling myself that it isn't me and that it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't find me attractive. He was brought up in a way that primarily teaches that sex is for men, ( ha ha, huh ladies?) so I do think he feels he has no right "asking" for it.
I work in a restaurant and have a sweet little old man who must be over 70 that comes in about once a month. For whatever reason, I am his cup of tea. He always goes on for about 5 minutes about how good I look, and I have to admit to loving the ego boost. If I do not wait on him, I always make it a point to stop at his table in the dining room to say hi. Again, I do this in part because I love the boost, but also in part because he is a sweetie, a widower, I think.
My point is that just because you may feel that he is not finding you attractive does not mean that you are not. Look in the mirror.... what do you think?
I think I 've lived the past 6 years being very very dependent on the A for many of my needs. So much of my recovery is about being less dependent on him for all my needs. I seek other avenues for many needs. The A I live with is not affectionate at all. I used to be very very affectionate to him that is gone. Now I am affectionate to others not in front of him but to my pets and I look for emotional support elsewhere. I am encouraging you to go out and be unfaithful but to look to other avenues to get your needs met. Sex is just one component of affection there are others. Volunteer at an animal shelter, volunteer at an old people's home take your mind off the A's issues. I can make a relationship the entire focus of my life I have had to learn not to in order for my sanity. I have had to learn not to work on the A's issues for him. Whether he gets into recovery or not is not my business. I have a life apart from him and with him (although I don't know how long the "with" him will last).
This room is an incredible place to learn detachment compassion and focus on yourself. I have been here a year. It has been a long hard difficult year. At the same time it would have been a much more difficult year without Al-anon.
Can relate to your situation. My AH has been trying for sobriety for past couple of years now. He is affectionate and interested in sex only when he is drinking. While sober he never initiates sex and seems uncomfortable with displays of affection. Of course in my A's case he has admitted that he was sexually abused as a child and into his early teens. He is just now finally getting counselling for his abuse which he believes to be the main reason for his constant relapses. In sobriety (while not medicated) the pain of that abuse and flashbacks he experiences makes him very uncomfortable with any form of intimacy (in fact uncomfortable in a number of situations) which may remind him of his abuse even further.
Surveys have shown that anywhere from 60-80% of alcoholics and/or addicts have in fact suffered abuse in their lifes and this could in fact be a part of your husband's discomfort. Of course, only he can do something about it should that be the case. Keeping this possibility in mind, however, should help to alleviate your fear that you are somehow to blame. Chances are it has nothing to do with you directly.
Thank you for the post...as far as feeling attractive myself; I know that I am pretty and my husband does tell me I'm beautiful if I ask him what he thinks of me but guess it's just a very rejecting feeling.. to go from being with a man who was so interested in sex.... always let me know he was satisfied with me and couldn't get enough, to having an affair, to not be interested at all. Hmmm...just still really hurts!
Anyway I know that no one person can meet all you needs and I do have two dogs and two cats that are very affectionate and I'm a Dressage rider and involved with the horses so I do get affection from the animals and from other family members (mom, dad, sisters), but I guess it doesn't always make it easier when the one person you would love to connect with affection wise is so unavailable. Some days it's just really painful, plain and simple.
I know I can't fix his issues, but I do want a life with my husband. I want recovery for our marriage not just for ourselves. I don't just want to detach because he doesn't have affection to offer right now. He was a very affectionate man for the majority of our marriage and very attentive, I guess that is what makes it even more difficult. I got married to be with this man not just to be married singles....do you ladies find that incredibly frustrating?? I do! What is the point of staying married if you don't have affection, friendship and a healthy amount of interdependency with your spouse?
Sorry to hear that your husband experienced sexual abuse, I'm sure that creates a lot of issues around sex/affection and I know it must be really hard on both of you. Actually my husband seemed much more interested in sex when he was drinking as well. I guess the alcohol could be considered like an aphrodisiac for some alcoholics...yes??
I'm sure the drinking made the choice to have the affair much easier (he villanized me to justify it). Mostly he wasn't interested in having sex with me during the affair and when he did want to have sex with me in retrospect he was using me and fantasizing about the other woman.
Maybe once they have stopped drinking they have so many feelings and emotions that they don't know what to do with as they don't have the alcohol to drown it all out. Sex without alcohol... they actually may really have to be vulnerable with their spouse and feel emotion. I suppose that could be pretty scary for the A. I'm not sure just a thought.
Sex without alcohol. They may have to be vulnerable with their spouse and feel emotions. Scary for the A. Think you may have hit the nail on the head right there.
I think for anyone, A or not, when our partner loses interest in sex, it's easy to conclude that they are just not interested in sex with US... that they are getting it somewhere else.
This is not always the case -- it's very complex. It may mean the person is just not interested, period... or that they are interested in getting it somewhere else, but may not actually be.
The irony in my relationship is that my wife carried on an intermittent affair with someone else for years. I didn't know... and it really didn't affect her interest in sex one way or another. Either she was quite ok with getting it both ways, or was a fine actress - maybe a little of both.
She left me for yet a third person, and it wasn't until then that I found out about the affair. It was a convenient scapegoat for other problems, but to this day, I don't know if the affair was a cause or a symptom. She of course, claimed the latter - that if she had been happy with things as they were, she would not have been vulnerable to this person's advances. I don't dispute that account, I'm sure that's how she really sees it.
I think by getting sober, going to meetings, and saying I was an alcoholic, it gave her a legitimate "out". While she may have been kicking herself for being married to a second alcoholic, at the same time it seemed to provide some rational, external reason for bailing out. IMO, she had decided to bail out long, long ago and just hadn't figured out how (or with who), her existence with me was comfortable, and she seemed ok with keeping up the act.
I guess it's the act I found hardest to forgive. And I question it. When leaving someone, it's common to claim retroactivity - "It was over a long time ago". That's supposed to somehow soften the blow, but for me it had the opposite effect - it said for all that time, I was a gullible fool and she didn't think I was worthy of the truth.
The reality, I think -- is more complicated. Everybody has mixed feelings. It's an A-ism to take a present moment feeling - whether it be euphoria, or utter despair, and project it infinitely into the future and the past simultaneously. Life is wonderful always has been, always will be. Or life sucks, always did, always will. These moments can occur minutes apart So for her at the moment of departure to claim that she never loved me, or at least hadn't for a long time, etc. is but another symptom of our shared disease.
Sex and the recovering Alcoholic or just Alcoholic is a grand subject. It really is. From my recovery I found that sex was/is so attached to self esteem and no matter how bad things got between me and my alcoholic, if we ended up having sex than everything was a-okay and it proved she still loved me...even when infidelity was going on. I had gotten to the bottom of the self esteem barrell. I didn't even care about possible physical ramifications or anything like that because if I could just get this proof I would be fine, could rest easy and feel confident.
I was addicted to her as a heroin addict was addicted to the needle.
In recovery I went after everything about self love and self nurturing and taking care of myself that I could. I learned that sex isn't love it is a privileged behavior of two loving behavior. The alcoholic wanted to love me...she love booze first and foremost and then came the infidelity. I had to protect and nurture and love myself. When I started to love and appreciate myself sex in itself wasn't the top need in my list of needs. Funny how things change.
Fear, low self esteem, negative expectations, past failures and false beliefs all affect my desire and performance in sex. There is soooooo much negative, skewed, outright crazy beliefs and old teachings about sex, proper sex, improper sex, perversions etc., that prove it is a major focus of humans and that it is important to our identities. I know this is how it was for me. Things have changed so much in recovery. Putting sex in its true perspective has been a major accomplishment and a daily one. I found it is better planned and therefore mutually agreed. I have found that if it is spontaneous it is still better as mutually agreed. I have found that when both my spouse and I are in expectation... sex is more exciting and fulfilling. I have found that caring about her mental, emotional, physical and spiritual condition before and during sex keeps me in the role of partner rather than controler or servant. I have found that if my relationship with my Higher Power is strongest my relationship with my spouse is respectful, mutual and honest. I no longer act on desires to just use her or her body for my own needs. I use to be the opposite during the early drinking years and while the disease was progressing. No I don't keep my self ready just in case she has the desire. There are times when I don't want to participate and I can be honest about that without excuses. I don't always know her motives and I do know what honesty is for me. Are there times when I participate when I initially don't want to? Surely. It doesn't always have to be my way or my conditions. I can let go at times. I don't all the time. After sex (I prefer to make love because I can do that 24/7) I am not a different person because of it. I am a special person to my spouse because she can trust me. I am the same person before, during and after. This program of recovery and the people in it have taught me much and there is much more to learn.
Sadly for some A's probably most, using is their "passion." Me it is plants and animals, someone else dirtbike riding whatever.
What is your passion? What fulfulls you? I can tell you right now if I was taken away from my animals, any animals, no plants, I would be so empty I would not care about sex either.
An A in recovery is still very very sick.Sounds like he is just not drinking, not following a plan of recovery. So his every moment is him not getting what he really loves and desires, using drugs.
When the A has that, they temporarily feel good and want sex, not making love,sex.
If he/she did it with someone else, it was part of the using ritual. It is not just the drug. It is the finding the money to buy it, it is buying it, bringing it to use it, pouring it in a glass, holding the glass or bottle. It is the coldness of the glass on their hands.
It is all a process a sequence of events, it is foreplay before they take that first drink again and again.
Lots of A's are totally unhappy sober. I don't know about you, but I don't want sex when I am unhappy.
Also you are who the disease hurt. He looks at you and feels so much guilt he wants to throw up.
Maybe go to open meetings together.
It is a hard one I know. I am sure he cannot climax becuz for him it is just a physical reaction to your touch. He could be in a coma and get an erection.
I hope I have said something that fits. I feel so sad for you both. Since he goes to AA, see if you can find an alanon/AA wise counselor and go together. Is your A on anti depressants? He may need to see a doctor.
What incredible honesty, courage and strength there are in these posts. I've always viewed sex as something very very mechanical or secretive because I grew up with that. The a's demands on me to have sex were something I kept secret for years. I felt abused by them and abused by his sulking because he did not get what he wanted (but then there is only what he wants!).
I'm glad to be in a place where I can lay that in the open without shame or fear.
Nice to see people talking about intamcy like this it is a real problem in most of our relationships durring the drinking years and after . I have a AA friend who said she had no interest in sex for yrs after being sober finally went to a doc and found a solution . Drinking over along period of time causes problems and yes I beleive that guilt and shame also play a part . Perhaps you could pursuade your husb to ask his doc if there is somthing medically wrong and explain to him that u miss the intamcy u once had . Your a young woman and have desires and rights too.
I too believe it's not personal , impotence aparently is faily common in alcoholics but there is help . good luck Louise
Thanks so much for all the encouraging and insightful feedback!
Barisax, I'm sorry that you had to go through that kind of betrayal by your A wife. I do think that affairs are symptoms of much deeper routed problems, partially in the marriage and also just very warped thinking on the part of the adulterous party...add alcohol to that and you have really a warped thought process.
I once heard this quote which I think is sad but true in the minds of adulterous people... affair = entitlement, lack of respect, and unsaid resentment
<quote>The reality, I think -- is more complicated. Everybody has mixed feelings. It's an A-ism to take a present moment feeling - whether it be euphoria, or utter despair, and project it infinitely into the future and the past simultaneously. Life is wonderful always has been, always will be. Or life sucks, always did, always will. These moments can occur minutes apart So for her at the moment of departure to claim that she never loved me, or at least hadn't for a long time, etc. is but another symptom of our shared disease.<quote>
That is a very good point... I think my A tends to do this as well. I also think telling you and themselves that they never loved you, or that it was bad for a long time or some variation helps them justifiy in their own mind having affairs or leaving. They have to villanize the marriage and you to make what their doing seem okay. Stinkin Thinkin at it's finest!
Jerry - yep I'm definitely at the bottom of the self-esteem barrel so I can really relate to what you have gone through
<quote>I found that sex was/is so attached to self esteem and no matter how bad things got between me and my alcoholic, if we ended up having sex than everything was a-okay and it proved she still loved me...even when infidelity was going on.<quote>
I did this to during my A's affair I felt like I was in some kind of competition and it was truly demeaning and awful. He would use me and fantasize about the OW and I new exactly what he was doing, but I so desperately wanted to be loved and wanted and I desperately wanted him, so I just took whatever crumbs he would throw me....terribly pathetic I know. I've always been crazy about my husband; really attracted to him and really in love with him so it just made everything so much more difficult.
It's inspiring to hear that you got to a much healthier place with how you view sex and respect for yourself and your spouse and now you can both enjoy it in a much healthier loving enviornment. I hope that I can get to that place with regard to how I view sex and respecting myself more, and that it will one day be good between my husband and I again. Did you go to counseling or did you learn most of this in your recovery process with Al-anon?
Debilyn- I can relate to you; I'm a big animal person myself and I have my dogs, cats and horses that I can go to for affection and fullfillment becaue they do bring me a lot of joy.
It is still not the same though as having that kind of affection and love from your spouse. I know Al-anon says to find other ways to meet your needs, and Lord knows I try to do that, but to this day there is just an empty space in my heart, soul where that special connection between my spouse and I use to be. Now there is just a very wounded place inside and trying to fill my life up with other activities and things doesn't really remove that wound.
I guess only my higher power (God) can do that and it's a slow process.
I think you are probably right that my A is very unhappy. Although, when I ask him he says he is fine, but I think he is just going through the motions in life.... I don't think he has had that light-bulb moment that I hear people talk about at AA.
I'm sure he does feel a lot of guilt, we do need to start counseling...we have had some really bad ones that gave terrible advice so I'm a little gun-shy I guess.
Abbyal I did ask my hubby to go for the doctor to maybe see if there was a problem and he said no, that there is absolutely no problem. I think the bottom line is he can get aroused (just doesn't always climax), and just not that interested (almost avoiding me I would say) and as I have read the post here... it is obviously a very complex makeup of trying to adjust to life without alcohol, dealing with guilt, possible depression and all kinds of feelings and emotions that he is not really revealing to me. He is very tight-lipped. Although, I still agree with you that a doctor might be able to help a bit...who knows.
He doesn't want me to share in his recovery process, he says he can do it on his own, so I'm not allowed to go to meetings with him. He was this way in rehab, I went to the family program once and only because the counselor there insisted. When I got there my A was cold he wouldn't really look at me, he was completely non-affectionate and shuffled me off early and so that is how we have started off from getting out of rehab 5 months ago to present. He says I’m forcing the affection/sex/ emotional connection issues.
I just really miss my husband, lover, best friend!
"Did you go to counseling or did you learn most of this in your recovery process with Al-anon?"
Here is where the awareness will come from; First they will come from HP after you pray for wisdom. Second they will come from listening to other recovering Family Members as they tell their stories about what is was like, what happened when they got into recovery and what it is like now after they started practicing the program and taking suggestions. Third it comes from a relationship with a recovering person you trust...a sponsor. Forth for me came with putting out some bucks for sessions with therapist most of who told me what I was already hearing in the face to face meetings. I decided to save the bucks and focus on the program. Fifth reading as much conference approved literature and other inspirational literature I could get my hands on. Sixth learning as much about the disease of alcoholism that I could. (I went to college on this and they also told me what I was hearing in the program so I finished my course work and stayed in the program.) Seventh I also have the experience of being a alcohol and substance abuse behavioral health counselor. In this I have worked with many adolescents, adults, families, married couples, school groups, etc. It has been a blessing.
I learned mostly by keeping and open mind, sitting and listening, dropping my pride and becoming teachable (humility) and practice of what was suggested by others who came before me.
Sexual difficulties within alcoholism is common. I learned this when my A was in inpatient treatment many years ago. I cannot explain the physiology of it. As the disease progresses, there is often an inability to climax. Add to it what is known now of the effects of smoking cigs (most common to alcoholics) and the damage it does to the blood vessels and resulting erectile dysfunction.
As hard as it may be, do not take it on as something lacking in you. Also, a womans sexual peak is her 30's to 40's.
It IS the disease and the damage it has caused. Another loss really. Yet, one that should be acknowledged.
Barisax, I'm sorry that you had to go through that kind of betrayal by your A wife. I do think that affairs are symptoms of much deeper routed problems, partially in the marriage and also just very warped thinking on the part of the adulterous party...add alcohol to that and you have really a warped thought process.
To clarify... my wife was not the A, I was. The only single letter modifier I can apply to her is "X"..... LOL.
Right now, the reasons of why she left, and why she had an affair, are clear. What is murky and will always be so is why she stayed as long as she did, and why she was ever interested in me in the first place.
When I apply for a job, I know how to sell myself. I can present my qualifications, experience, and talents to show a prospective employer that I am worthy of doing the job. But when I go on that first date, I just draw a blank. The process these days _does_ seem like a job interview. I am hoping for chemistry, and I get a questionaire. I guess the very presence of the questionaire indicates an extreme lack of chemistry LOL. But to get down to the crux of the matter, when a woman asks me bluntly - regardless of wording - "What do you have that I'd be the slightest bit interested in?", I really have no answer. "Well back in '83, a wandering comet thought I was worth checking out and she stayed a while" is about the best I can do.
I'm sure there is some physical part to play in his lack of interest and I think there is also a big emotional element although I don't begin to understand the makeup of that.
I tried to talk to him about it again yesterday (sex/affection topic) and why it is the way it is. I get know real answers though. All I got was that his focus was strictly on work and AA/sobriety and that he was just not interested in anything else. Although lately I don't think that is entirely true as I have found evidence of masturbation while I was away last weekend (I do the laundry) and traces of semen in his underwear yesterday. (sorry to be so graphic)
If I bring this up what I find in the laundry he says he can't explain it and gets agitated that I ask. Not the masturbation part (know how that works) but sometimes there are traces of semen in his underwear not from that and I get triggered because of the whole affair thing.... that is why I was trying to ask him to help me understand how or why it happens.
I have heard that for men with thoughts or in their sleep a little can come out, but I just wanted to hear from my husband given the history of what he did, why it was happening but he say he doesn't know. Hmmm! I don't believe there is any affair stuff going on, he lets me know where he is throughout the day and tries to be accountable but it seems given the physical evidence there is some interest in sex, just not with me, or at least he doens't want to act on it with me.
Gentlemen insights on this, because I'm clueless??
Barisax-
Doesn't sound like the dating process has been so fun for you...of course I don't think it is fun for anyone. I think it's what you have to offer on the inside from your heart that counts: friendship, companionship, laughter, a listening ear. Women like a guy who listens to them and really is interested in what they have to say.
If a woman is asking you "What do you have that I'd be the slightest bit interested in", she probably is not the one for you. There has to be some chemistry there out of the gates and the best relationships always start with friendship.
Look at all your good qualities... it's what you have to offer from the heart that counts, I think thats what really makes a relationship last anyway not any of the material stuff. If a woman is only looking for that, run the other way because she is not very genuine. What interest you? what are you passionate about? what do you do for fun? Let those things shine though, a woman who is really interested will want to get to know you the person.
BTW - I truly believe this love happens when you least expect it. I've been telling my Mother-in-law this for the last 15 years and after all this time with no luck in the love department she finally met the love of her life and of all places at her best friends memorial service...so there you go, where you least expect it.
Gentlemen insights on this, because I'm clueless??
Not to speak for all of the gentlemen (and I use the term liberally) but masturbation - shocking as it may seem - is pretty ordinary for grownups, ain't just the domain of adolescents. Show me a guy who says he doesn't and I'll show you a liar... LOL.
What do you do for fun?
See above... ... just kidding LOL.....
Actually what I do for fun is mostly guy stuff. And not the kind of guy stuff that brings the ladies out to watch. No bull riding
Al Anon approved literature -- THE DILEMMA OF THE ALCOHOLIC MARRIAGE
easy reading; took me 2 hours last night while I couldn't sleep, again ;) it has a lot more to offer besides this subject, but it is addressed (or undressed, as you'd have it)
yours in recovery
cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
CJ -Thank you I will pick up a copy, thank you for the insight!
Barisax - It's not the masturbation that bugs me it's sort of a more subtle thing that I find in the laundry that I think is not always tied to masturbation, but is a trigger because it meant he was fooling around during the affair. Sort of hard to descibe unless I gave details and probably not appropriate here but it sure does trigger and confuse me.
I'm trying to do what Jerry F suggested and go to my Higher Power for wisdom so that I don't jump to conclusions or say things that trigger my husband and drive a bigger wedge between us. I'm sure I also need to read a lot more of the literature as CJ suggested.
Also I'm sure we need to get into counseling ASAP (now if I can just find a sane counselor that give sensible advice).
as been there, done that... i'd start my search for a counselor specializing in addiction and bpd, as the 2 go together quite commonly... it may not fit your situation, as we are each unique. and, of course, depending on insurance/finances, you get what you pay for -- ph.D with experience can be invaluable for some. these are merely opinions and i want to be clear on that.
yours in recovery
cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
My alcoholic partner and i have been together just over a year. About 6 wks before he decided to go sober cold turkey which failed. He had his first detox 6 wks later which is now 4 mths ago. We do not live together but I stayed at his home most days prior to home detox. When he was actively drinking we were very affectionate together. Holding hands even to watch tv and very close. Nobody had seen him happier. It was great. Sex was great. I found out he had been drinking for the most of his 4 mths recovery two weeks ago. In the last 4 mths he still battles trying to be sober. He has shown no affection emotionally, physically or sexually. Im almost certain he would prefer we are friends. He says he loves me but wont talk about anything to help our relationship and hurts. He used to be a much nicer person drinking. I thought he was sexually immature in those days though but between the sheets he eas a great performer?? Bring sex up when not in bed and he would feel embarrassed and go shy and child like? I miss the man I was deeply in love with when he drank and that sounds really bad! I miss the affection. By the way I didnt know he was alcoholic till just begore he tried coming off the drink. He confessed. Since then im shut out and kept at arms reach. I dont think he would be that bothered if he lost me and I walked away. He has even suggested it but claims he loves me? Im confused at it all. Is this the norm for his situation?
Welcome to MIP Lucylou - glad you found us and joined right in. The disease is cunning, baffling and powerful and I suggest you seek out and attend Al-Anon meetings. That's where I found others who could lead me towards a restoration to saner, healthier thinking which then helped me make better decisions and choices.
Early recovery (for the A) is very hard, confusing and demanding. It makes perfect sense to me that he would pull away if he's serious about recovery - it's suggested as the Top Priority. I can also see how this would be very hard on you. Take good care of yourself and keep coming back. You are not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
He always goes on for about 5 minutes about how good I look, and I have to admit to loving the ego boost. If I do not wait on him, I always make it a point to stop at his table in the dining room to say hi. Again, I do this in part because I love the boost, but also in part because he is a sweetie, a widower, I think. 
So for her at the moment of departure to claim that she never loved me, or at least hadn't for a long time, etc. is but another symptom of our shared disease.
So for her at the moment of departure to claim that she never loved me, or at least hadn't for a long time, etc. is but another symptom of our shared disease.<quote>
