I felt used during sex like it was just another hit or buzz for him. I never felt there was intimacy and closeness while he was drinking. I was also pretty effected by alcoholism that I felt resentment and self.pity a lot of the time. I ended marriage too but he wasn't sober and in aa but I was In recovery in alanon. I'm sorry ypur wife feels like she does. Alcoholism is a family disease. She will have many of the thought disorders you have and it's unlikely her thinking will improve without her own recovery. You could suggest alanon but you have no power over that. Your responsibility is to your recovery and improving your life and that's not dependant on whether she leaves or stays it's dependent o how much you want to change and change things for yourself. As I built up a relationship with my higher power I realised I don't need other people for my happiness or serenity. I can accept that I will be ok no matter what as long as I've got this program I have tools to deal with practically anything one day at a time. Good luck and thanks for sharing here.

Hi M180 Like LC I too felt as your wife however attending alanon meetings, working with a sponsor using the Steps, he and I developed a deeper intimacy than we had ever experienced . It is a process and we had to remember that it took us a long time to disconnect so that it would take time to reconnect and it did!!
There is hope I would suggest that your partner search out alanon face to face meetings and attend because living with the disease we too develop many negative coping tools that need to be addressed so we can have a joyful life.  This is one reason alanon was founded. There is hope

Congrts to you for your continued sobriety

Welcome M180 - congratulations to you on seeking recovery and getting sober. One of my biggest 'cycling emotions' from this disease is the feeling of being used and at times set aside for something better - almost discarded. I will say that Al-Anon did give me tons of relief as I learned how the disease in others affected me, my thoughts, feelings, emotions and actions.

To me, it sounds hopeful that she's willing to try the 2-day event. Miracles happen in recovery all the time - both AA and Al-Anon. Keep working your program, one day at a time and love her enough to give her space to process, deal and heal.

We would all 'love' a crystal ball that can tell us what to do today to have a better tomorrow. However, when we project in that way, it robs us of the gifts of today. Celebrate you and keep an open mind - we never know the power of a HP!

I am a double winner (AA and Al-Anon), and met and married my husband in AA. We will be married 27 years in April. He relapsed almost 24 years ago, and never returned to AA. I could tell you all the pain, trauma, heart-ache and more but I prefer to focus on the miracles and what's good in life. I've been able to stay in the marriage and we've been able to figure things out in spite of the disease. It's far, far from perfect, but what is?

This was my second marriage and will be my last. When things got hard in my first marriage, I left and felt justified in doing so. As I worked on recovery, and used the steps on both sides of this program, I did learn that my expectations of self and others were far from realistic. So - today, I am grateful for the miracle of recovery, my marriage, and most of all, my serenity.

Keep doing you - as we say on both sides of the house - more will be revealed!

Hi 180man and welcome .. I'm going to echo what others have stated .. my xah and I were coming from two different places .. his was finding whatever feel good he could gather and mine was trying to recover from the insanity of the pain I felt from being used and abused. Much my ex participated in and some was my own spinning of my part in our dysfunctional dance. I think it's great you are owning your part that being said I think it's interesting .. my ex is not recovering however believes or my perception of his behavior is if he flips a switch I'm required to go along with his thought process and that's totally not my perception of the story he wishes to portray. Alanon would be wonderful for your spouse . I will point out this isn't about you or your time line of what you think she should do or how you think she should feel about your relationship/ intimacy or whatever. You do your healing program work .. let her see the actions and not words .. most of us have heard many times over this time is different to find out that wasn't the case. Ironically that's not the addicts issue that was my part of wanting to believe the words and not the actions of my ex. 4 months is a wonderful start and thank God this is a one day at a time program because all I have to concern myself with is today. Where am I at today. Those today's multiply into many days. Days into weeks .. months and so on without having to look at the length of time. Seriously is there even a question as to why there is pushback from your spouse? I didn't trust myself forget about thinking about trusting my ex .. btw .. I don't trust him now because I know based upon experience with him nothing has changed .. I get the same behavior and outcome. I do trust my higher power and I trust my instincts .. that's what alanon gave me back and the ability to heal from a past bigger than my ex. I would encourage you to be patient ... understanding .. supportive and allow her the grave, as well as dignity to process through her stuff. Hopefully she will enjoy the alanon aspect of things and find much needed healing as well as self discovery. Alcoholism is tough business on all sides. 4 months of good behavior doesn't undo years of hurt. That takes time and consistency. It's a start and an excellent one at that so many kudos. I really hope your spouse will find healing through the program. Life is good on the other side. :) s

Congratulations on your recovery and hang in there.

I think the thing about drinking, like all addictions, is that it exacts a price.  It is kind of like going on a spending spree and racking up a big debt.  Afterwards we may say, "But I've stopped spending!  I shouldn't have to pay that debt!" - but the thing is that there is a price no matter what.  Losing the trust of your wife and causing her prolonged pain is part of the price.  You may say, "But I wasn't looking at the price tag when I did it!"  But nevertheless there was a price tag.  Drinking is one long way of trying to avoid paying the piper.  Stopping drinking is acknowledging that there is a price and that it has come due.

The way I see it, there are two things to keep in mind now.  One is that this is early days.  You have been sober for nearly four months.  The first year (sometimes two years, sometimes more) of sobriety can be rough for both the drinker and those around them.  There are lots of changes, there is a different focus, there's moodiness and a lot of emotions that have to be dealt with.  Trying to get everything back to "normal" (or a new normal) four months in is hurrying the process.  I know it would feel good to have everything squared away.  But the process doesn't work that quickly.  Her emotions are not going to be settled any more than yours are.  Plus she may have read something about the statistics of people who relapse in that first year.  She would be being only prudent to wait and see how things unfold, rather than jumping into an arrangement that might not work out.  I know it is difficult not to know how things are going to work with her. I can see your impatience in saying that you're ready to give up hope, and "am ready to move on."  One thing to keep in mind is how long she waited for you to get sober and therefore really be available to be in the relationship.  Did she wait longer than four months for you to get sober?

Another thing is that she knows that you have an impulsive "Now I've got it solved!" aspect - as when you had decided you could handle it on your own.  So she knows that your confidence levels are not necessarily a true indication of how well it's going to go.  In Al-Anon we advise people that when there's doubt, they should wait, because "More will be revealed."  If she is waiting, that's only an indication of healthy emotional caution on her part.  The fact that she has to use emotional caution - that's where the price tag of alcoholism comes in

One thing that bothered me about my Alcoholic (who relapsed continually, and who did not stay sober) is that every time he'd go into recovery, he'd say, "There!  I did it!  Now back to normal!"  And he'd expect me to act as if nothing had happened.  That was how he was when he was drinking, too.  He tried to enforce the idea that his drinking was never any big deal.  That my reacting to it was my own weirdness.  That there was nothing disturbing about the blackouts, benders, lying, unavailability, overspending, health problems, and many other features of his drunkenness.  His way of trying to make it "No big deal" was to act as if any response I had was just bizarre peevishness on my part.

So if I had to advise my A (now my ex-A, but still drinking) about this, I would say this: "Take it seriously.  Acknowledge that it was serious.  Acknowledge that it was very painful.  Acknowledge that things were out of control.  Acknowledge that many relationships never come back from this.  Acknowledge that I put up with things no one should have to put up with.  Acknowledge that this is not a problem that is easily solved.  Live with the discomfort.  Don't try to erase it.  Don't cast me as the unreasonable one for feeling this way.  If you want to try a relationship together again, sit with the discomfort that the situation calls for.  Don't try to hurry me up.  What you might endure waiting for me is probably very little compared to what I endured waiting for you.  That's where the situation is.  If you want to try again, don't erase the past.  If you don't want to try again, well and good, that's a fair choice.  I'm in doubt too.  Don't hurry me up to try to pretend things are 'right' as you have been doing all this time."

You can pay the price for the drinking by waiting her out and giving her time, or you can pay the price by losing the relationship.  Those are the choices.

You will show her that things have truly changed by not trying to change her mind about her feelings about her drinking.  Let her see the results of your recovery as they unfold over time, and as they show in your patience with her responses to what has happened.  Then you can both decide how things will look going forward.  In as much as you demand a quick solution, those are the old alcoholic mind-patterns hanging on.  That's my experience of it.

Mattie wrote:

---

 

So if I had to advise my A (now my ex-A, but still drinking) about this, I would say this: "Take it seriously.  Acknowledge that it was serious.  Acknowledge that it was very painful.  Acknowledge that things were out of control.  Acknowledge that many relationships never come back from this.  Acknowledge that I put up with things no one should have to put up with.  Acknowledge that this is not a problem that is easily solved.  Live with the discomfort.  Don't try to erase it.  Don't cast me as the unreasonable one for feeling this way.  If you want to try a relationship together again, sit with the discomfort that the situation calls for.  Don't try to hurry me up.  What you might endure waiting for me is probably very little compared to what I endured waiting for you.  That's where the situation is.  If you want to try again, don't erase the past.  If you don't want to try again, well and good, that's a fair choice.  I'm in doubt too.  Don't hurry me up to try to pretend things are 'right' as you have been doing all this time."

 

 This is very meaningful to me, and helps a lot.

Thank you.

My fav book to date as well as what Betty has mentioned is Getting them Sober, Toby Rice Drew, Vol 2. I believe that's the one for people who have loved ones in recovery. It is a no nonsense view of recovery as well as alanon I prefer that approach in regards to understanding.

Hugs S :)

Hi 180Man -  I have been thinking about your post and how to respond/share.  Fortunately, everyone has done a fantastic job sharing that I really don't have anything to add.   I currently feel the same way about my marriage as far as intimacy is concerned and my AH is not in recovery; he's very active with his alcoholism.  I find it very difficult to be affectionate with my AH so any kind of intimacy is out of the question. I have completely emotionally detached and even somewhat physically detached as I won't share our bed with him anymore.  I need sleep and I find the snoring and sleep apnea breathing to be very disruptive to me during the night.

I will say that AlAnon has helped me immensely but I don't know if it will save my marriage.  I'm learning to take care of me.

Thank you everyone for your ESH - I have also learned from your replies!

I relate to so many shares...

and recall the suggestion often given in early 12-step recovery, don't make any major decisions for a year (I believe.) I myself was in recovery for 18 months before I made a decision on the relationship. the most important relationship in recovery, is recovering that relationship to the Higher Power... that is the "real" relationship that had been lost in my disease.   worrying too much about recovering other stuff before I establish my relationship to HP is putting the cart ahead of the horse, as it was explained to me.  everything just falls into place as it should when I put "first things first"

I once heard that when a person makes a behavior change, it takes about two years for others to even notice!!! others continue to see us as we were for a very long time.   your new life may not yet register in your wife's brain yet... too much history...

But from where I sit, I still see hope in your first post. she has a lot to forgive and this takes time, we humans are not equipped with automatic acceptance buttons, lol

"Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished."

(((hugs)))

-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 18th of January 2018 12:38:53 PM

-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 18th of January 2018 12:55:01 PM

You are all amazing - at this point I am not going to hope for anything but that my wife finds and chooses a group as open, vulnerable, caring, and insightful as you all have been.

That being said, I'm going to hold out hope deep in my heart, but my focus will be on myself and my recovery, and not let my hope for my marriage cause me to pressure my wife in any way.

2HP- I am just starting to realize that my journey is more spiritual in nature than anything else - thanks for sharing.

A bit of news from my end today - after trying out several groups over the past few months, I finally have a sponsor and Home Group!

One final question: is there a name for the condition where my wife can no longer be physically intimate? I would like to do as much reading on it as I can, as well as look up the literature you have recommended above.

Thanks again for all of your support!

M180

 

 

180 Man the loss of intimacy within the disease of alcoholism is usual and the result of mental and emotional conditioning or re-conditioning it doesn't only happen because of our disease.  I would investigate it widely and see what you arrive at in solutions.  One of the reasons for me that the loss of intimacy came up was the fear of STDs as my alcoholic/addict spouse resorted to infidelity when she was out there.  Alcohol is also a chemical depressant for both the drinker and partner.

Our disease confuses even the best therapist and counselors.  This is my back ground and one of the very best descriptions of the program when I arrived held my attention then and now.  Our recovery is called Social model therapy meaning the negatively affected help the negatively affect recover sharing their experiences, strengths and hopes.

If you keep and open mind you will find help and quite often this help will come from your sponsor and others in the program who have come thru more dire straits then you.  Keep coming back cause this works when you work it.   ((((hugs))))   

 

 Hi 180 and Y'all,

                         was not going to weigh in here. Mostly, I think, because I did not want to go outside of the Alanon philosophy.

However this is a special group here. I think members have options elsewhere... other groups, and also seeking professional help.

But for me- this group- right here- has the flavour and strength of a big city group. For someone living in a country town, east of

Australia- it is a mine of gems.

I am proud and impressed with the support emerging here 180... proud to be a member of the group. Lots of times I cringe a bit

over the 'higher power' aspects of recovery- same for all groups-. Something the highly educated might find really off-putting. And

many others too. But if we are troubled and desperate enough we will find our way around all of these obstacles.

I am in favour of holding relationships together- if possible. I apply the serenity prayer here.

Our diversions and addictions hold us back from emotional growth. How do we crank up this growth? Emotional is invisible.

Today is always works for me- in the here and now...

       ...I use the word "adult" here as a verb. We all adult here in a deep and meaningful way. I like to think we kid around too... well over time get get this back...:

gals and pals, is what I call Alanon, laughter and tears- a good measure of both... ... 

 cheers,

DavidG.

Ellipses Anonymous...

Have you considered talking to some of your AA folks as they may have excellent in's so to speak with the local alanon groups in the area. Chances are the only thing they will do is provide information to you to pass on to your wife.

I don't know how AA works as far as sponsorship .. however in alanon it is advised that for your own healing it is better that you ask for a sponsor on your own .. sponsorship is very personal and you need to really understand and appreciate the sponsor. It helps to attend meetings and listen to others speak about their recovery and then ask for a sponsor.

She really needs to do her own work in her own program vs you being involved in doing so for her. So I just feel like reaching out to your group as well as sponsor and asking how do you get information is appropriate outside of that it sounds like that's totally not your business. I did that for spouses/sig others who asked about information for alanon and we actually had an alanon member at one of the local open aa meetings who would gladly provide that kind of information.

Hugs S :)

I'm one that tries to be honest always.....there is nothing wrong with sharing that you stumbled upon this forum and shared a bit of your story. There is nothing wrong with suggesting you've done research and that she may find some support and a a sponsor in Al-Anon. There's nothing wrong with doing some research/legwork since she's asked.

Where we work our side of the program is we share our findings, and then we allow the other to take action or not. We talk often about the three A(s) - Awareness, Acceptance & Action. We also talk about enabling - simply defined as doing for others what they can do for themselves. Keeping these in mind as well as examining your own motives will help you determine how best to present what you've discovered - I have faith in that.

The best part about being sober is we aren't choosing between right/wrong or good/bad any more in a fog of substances. Instead, we are choosing between good/better! It takes some getting used to but what you're doing is earnest and helpful for you both. I also agree she needs to find her own support system - program/not, sponsor/not...consider each step you've taken and how it feels each day to do the next right thing. For me, part of the desire to stay sober in AA and as serene as possible in Al-Anon has everything to do with experiencing 'it' today.

Keep coming back, keep asking and take good care of you!

Some people with workaholism issues find help.in.pr9grams like CODA. 

There are lots of issues with boundaries around workaholism. 

I think it is pretty impressive your.wife is going to a group.  There is plenty of literature out there on

Living with a recovering partner.  There is also of.course couples therapy.   In some couples therapy there is a chance to work with a lot of tools to reduce conflict and encourage intimacy in measured steps. 

 

As you may know from going to AA meetings there are members who are able to reconcile with their spouses.  Those member often share their stories at speaker meetings.  There are specialized speaker meetings and.conferences where speakers talk at length about #what it was like what happened and what they did next#. 

One of those speakers may be able to share at length with you what their strategies were. 

 

 

 For me, "adult" is a verb, as well as a noun. For any number of reasons none of us has learned to adult well.

 It may not cure or heal us, though goodness knows we need both sometimes. What I missed most from the

drinking situation was the conversation- and ambiance. I saw that other people had it and envied.

I am so proud to be a member of this group. Sometimes, when people are ready they get 'a wrap around'.

I have had it too- and learned somehow, how to give it...

...we all know how terrible life can be. We have all bin there, one way or t'other. But to be a part of the

recovery family- is not to be alone. Not any longer...

   thanks, you, for raising the topic... ... ...

To answer the question about intimacy - in general, when a woman is overwhelmed and full of negative emotion (anger, sadness, hurt, and truckloads of fear ) she isn't in touch with the intimate feelings. Mainly, intimacy hides under anger and fear. She may or may not even feels it exists at that moment and these feelings are so powerful that they're hard to dispel.

I believe that most couples have a potential to reconnect - because underneath, the bonds still exist and can be rekindled. I don't know if this has a name, but it is a common happening in relationships that don't have a more healthy way of handling / processing / expressing. (I have come to believe that labels aren't as important as the essence of a situation and a loving solution or support.)

In general, kind consistency of thoughts, words, actions, and deeds are my main hallmarks of feeling safer in a situation. Just like when you and she were dating, this is something that happens over time.

I'm glad she's going to a group. It's interesting she asked you to find someone. I remember how lost I felt going to my first meetings and trying to find a sponsor. Like it's been mentioned, it's important she find her own way and chose her own sponsor - someone who has something that she wants to have - someone she can relate to and trust.

Sending prayers.

I'm not in that position however I think with any relationship that there can be some contact however it is a balance.

Pause, pray and proceed, I am a firm believer is to thy own self be true that means to me .. it is gentle, it is listening and it is respectful. Letting go without the expectation of a response.

If this offends anyone please don't go further .. lol .. there are positive things I take away from the bible and this is one of them.

I go back to the bible and the 1 Corinthians 13:4 - 8 passages

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts and always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease, where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

You can take what you like however what that says to me is this truly loving someone is allowing them to be who they are, it is not me holding them accountable, it is holding myself accountable, allowing them to be in their own truths and allowing them to ebb and flow. There is nothing wrong with communicating there is something wrong with pressuring. Even when I was dating if someone started to pressure I pushed back and I believe that if my XAH had done some of this and he did in terms of pressuring he was pushed back because I knew he was not coming at me as a healthy individual, he was still trying to manage, manipulate and so on and I was still doing my dance as well.

I think respect is the bottom line in dealing with another person regardless of type of relationship.

As an added disclaimer .. my XAH and I have a very conflicted relationship at this point and if he would match his words to his actions, suit up show up and stop making excuses and stop blaming .. I would be willing to allow my guard down just a little .. right now I'm Fort Knox. Listen to your HP .. listen to your spouse and above all treat her the way you would want to be treated especially since you recognize that she's wounded and needs time to heal. We all have our hurts. Apologies without excuses and space go a LONG way.

Hugs S :)

There is no right or wrong approach and her emotions are likely to keep fluctuating and maybe even dramatically as she starts her healing process. In my case, I had to process the anger to understand that I still loved him.

I still have the notes my ex-husband sent me during that time-frame.

I believe there's always hope.

What I needed most was to feel his love through consistency of thoughts, words, and deeds, as well as understanding when I needed space.

Continue to pray and listen to your HP for guidance. Speak from your heart and forgive moments that might hurt if she's struggling to regain her balance. Perhaps this is a way that you can grow together.... keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.