PNP, I hear you and I feel for you. I went through the same thing -- 15 years of a home, home life, etc. -- and every single day, my fortitude, attitude, and more, was tested. I had to call my sponsor every single day and have him "help me" and "prop me up" because I was feeling that I was getting weaker, and starting to cave in. I had to lean on and rely on him, friends from the program, and my family. I had to mind my own business -- completely.

My sponsor and my friends in program felt that I needed to do what I needed to do -- and stand in my truth and my actions -- I didn't tell her what she needed to do, but I told her what I needed to do, the timeframes involved, and what it would mean to her/us living in the house, leaving the house, etc. If she ended up not having a place to go/to live, it was not going to be my fault, and I couldn't be blamed. She tried, but I did not buy into it. Not at all.

I didn't fill out the papers. She was able to. She said she couldn't. I wasn't refusing to punish her. And, I wasn't being cold. I got the forms. I answered some of the questions for her -- but I couldn't do it all for her. When her family begged me not to tell her, and not to keep bringing up the move -- I told them that I had to be honest with her and tell her what I needed to do, and what my obligations were, so that the house could be vacated, empty, etc., within the proper timeframe. They told me if I kept bringing it up -- she would no doubt drink, go off the deep end, and perhaps attempt suicide. They asked me how could I cause that and live with myself. I told them I would not lie to her, keep any secrets from her, and I would politely remind her and explain again to her about the deadlines and that the house needed to be emptied, vacated and that we each had to move. She knew she wasn't coming with me.

In your situation -- he has had a month. One month. He's done very little right? So his old problem...will it become your new one? He has his nephew. His family. They can help him. They can do for him, what he can't do for himself, if they choose to. It sounds a little like all of them want you to take this on and continue to "rescue" him moving forward. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

You are doing great -- your meetings, being kind, and how you contacted his family. You did all you could, except if you want to take over ownership for his solutions and his drinking. He needs to get to the doctor, get meds, get on MediCal, etc. -- and now is the time. He has to want to do it -- and if he doesn't -- it is on him. His family has to decide what role they want to play -- as you know your role. Keep it up!

If only the A would get the help he/she needs....but since we cannot control them, and Lord knows I tried, my only choice is taking care of myself. And at first I felt almost selfish. It's taken me a long time to detach with like/love. In the beginning, I was just detached with a concrete wall. Before alanon I went through talking, begging, crying, angry, etc. It was like talking to a tree. Nothing penetrated. When my A would say how much she loved me, I would say things like, really? And also, you have a strange way of showing it. Because alcohol and drinking buddies were her priority.

Fast forward 4 years in alanon and I have bought my own place to live, she is now getting some really good help and there could be hope for our future. Since there is no trust I really have to take ODAT. So I would suggest you do for yourself what you are doing-enlist help from his family, and work on a safe place for you and your child. MIP is always here for you, Lyne

PnP - sending you thoughts and prayers - love your forward progress. For me, when I make boundaries, I modify only after a discussion with my sponsor and my HP. I am so grateful that I only have to manage today and can consider tomorrow then. Projection for me gets my brain spinning and takes me away from what's important, just for today.

Keep working on you and your plan.

That was one thing I found soooooo frustrating -- the alcoholic telling different stories/lies/etc. to the family, so that the family prepared and was under certain impressions, when that really wasn't the case. I remember my AW telling her family very clearly -- this is what needed to be done, this is how we need to prepare, etc. Her family reacted accordingly, got paperwork together, contacted insurance, etc. Everyone did everything they were supposed to. Then when the moment came -- there were two other things that were required, which were NOT done. Everyone started yelling and screaming, the insurance company did this wrong, the rehab did that wrong, and so on. So, she couldn't go!!! It turns out that all of the paperwork she received said very clearly that requirements A and B had to be completed before approval and check-in. My AW did not show or share that paperwork with her family. She merely "told" them what she was told, showed them notes that she took, etc. She never showed the actual paperwork. When all was said and done -- it is my opinion, just my opinion -- that my AW did not want to go to rehab. She had said that all along and then only agreed to go because everyone gave her no choice. Thus, she didn't do what she had to do and didn't let her family do it either. Simply sabotage and then deflect and blame the insurance company and the rehab place, and everyone else. I've seen this far too many times. 

She kept drinking. In secret. She didn't want to go to rehab because she knew I would proceed with leaving the house, moving, and she was very fearful that would lead to me filing for divorce. Doesn't matter what she was thinking. I put her mind at ease -- and it did NOT matter. 

I said countless times -- she has to face reality. Unfortunately, the fact is, she didn't. I did not go to the sit down with her family. My choice. Not theirs. They wanted me to go, but I chose not to. I had already done too much and it was time for me to mind my own business. My position was -- if she wants it, she'll go get it. She has to do this on her own. She was not begging for rehab or help, so anything I did was forcing what I want. She asked for help in her insincere and half-efforts with the paperwork -- but I wouldn't participate at all. I didn't want anything or any involvement. If it worked, it was because of her and because she wanted it. If it didn't -- it was on her and she didn't do what she was supposed to. That makes a statement to me. That is my proof -- for me -- that she does not want to get better. She wanted things to continue the way they were. My position...NO. Not an option. I can assure you of one thing -- I did what I did, in a healthy and supportive way, and I did not feel any, even the slightest measurable amount, that I was abandoning her. NOT AT ALL.

My AW's family wanted me to do it. They wanted it to be my responsibility. They felt that if they could get and keep me in it -- I wouldn't leave her, I wouldn't move out, etc. They wanted us to stay together -- so they wanted to keep me in it and tied into all that was going on. Bottom line -- I DID NOT feel like a bad person. I DID NOT feel like I was abandoning her at all. I did not feel like I did anything wrong. I checked with my sponsor, daily, multiple times a day. I got objectivity at every turn. I made sure I was doing the next right thing in front of me, for me, at every juncture. I did not let what other people judged become my reality. I set my own standard, with the help of healthy friends from program, as to what enabling was, how detaching should be, and what my role should and shouldn't be.

In the end...my AW had to bear the consequences -- both positive and negative -- of her own decisions, actions, lack of, and so on.

PnP ((((hugs))))

When I left my husband for a while it felt so difficult, I thought that I was being cruel and 'a bad person' and I guess that in order to do it I had to toughen up a lot. But one thing that surprised me was when a couple of weeks later my husband told me he was proud of what I did , he knew that leaving was the right thing even though he hated it.

Keep taking care of you, HP has the rest.

Well, I knew this was going too smooth. After reading his family's texts all day about who talked to AH and what he told them, I went home from work. AH said that he had an appointment with social services on Thursday. Knowing that he lies, I asked for his paperwork so I could see the time. "Oh, I don't have any, I got the appointment over the phone." OK. Mind you, last week when I tried contacting them, I had to phone constantly for two days before I got someone on the line. And she told me, I can't help you with that, but you can just go into the center... you don't have to have an appointment. So was my AH honest with his family? Maybe. It's always possible. So I let it go. 

So I advised him that when he gets there to make sure and tell the worker that his Medi-CAl should be a "rush" situation. He asked me why?

I then explained the situation with the rent, how much time we have in the house, and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out. He was shocked. Like he had never heard it before. I just don't understand it. But then again, I don't have to. LOL! But I had to reiterate why I want to separate, and I made sure to keep it to it being all about me. What I needed, that I needed to work on myself, and I had hoped he would also want to work on his demons that cause him to self-medicate.

He cried and said he didn't want me to move out. I told him I understood, but it was something that needed to be done. Even if I didn't feel the need to live separately, neither of us can afford the rent on our own. After the crying, he got very quiet and then I could tell he was angry. But I couldn't tell if he was angry at me, himself, or at the situation.

I think it's going to be a weird night.

I don't know why I thought this could be somewhat civilized. I mean, he knows he needs help. Does he think I would continue being treated like a doormat forever?

Denial is a strong entity.

Hi Posiesandpuppies,

I was where you are this past June.  I sat on the decision to leave because of a lot of fear about doing the right thing.  Probably too long because my 15-year old daughter was suffering in an unhappy household.  I don't know if this helps but I just kept picturing that light at the end of the tunnel.  For me, it was a safe, calm household where there was love and kindness.  That is what I have now and I am not looking back.  I still have to fight my fears, my enabling, and my tendency to want to be perceived as the savior.  So there are daily challenges.  But more importantly, every day offers hope and moments of joy.  

Best wishes to you.  I hope you will let us know how  you are doing.  

 

 

 

High hopes and low expectations...I can't tell you how many times I've heard that in meetings, and for me it worked! Part of my struggle, was the constant disappointment --
and pain -- that kept happening over and over and over again. Now, I completely understand -- my wife was doing what she was doing. She was just doing what she was doing. That's what alcoholics do. Period. The real problem -- yes, we all know it -- was me! I kept expecting, hoping, and yes I wanted -- her to want to get better!

Anyway, more to the point, you are doing all the right things for you, all the healthy things for you -- and that's great! I very much like that you kept it in the "I" -- and I am not surprised, actually I expected, him to react as if he never heard this before. Been there done that had a cup of coffee and went home...to my new home! LOL. But, I expected the never heard this before, first time, completely shocked, from him just based upon your ongoing updates. I like that you let it go, until you didn't -- and then you handled what needed to be handled, in such a healthy, compassionate and caring way. I so admire and respect you and what you are doing and how you are doing it. Thank you so much for posting this.

As far as the anger -- one thing that jumped out at me -- when you referenced "...and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out." Could that have been the catalyst for some anger on his part? Perhaps a shift in his feelings? Something? Anything? Because the truth is -- he did hear it before. From you, from his family. That was all his denial, but the reality if often never a reality with the alcoholic. That is part of the disease -- their disease. You are right -- you don't understand AND YOU don't have to. You are so right.

So, I have a question -- how did you feel about having to reiterate why you want to separate? Even though you kept it all about you -- did you feel that was "getting into it" again? Did you feel you were getting into a back and forth? Or was it simply you just re-stating, reiterating, etc.? That's been a struggle for me -- and sometimes there is a fine line between reiterating my feelings, keeping it in the I, etc., and getting into it all over again, and getting caught up in the back and forth with the alcoholic. The former, I wish was not necessary -- and the latter is very unhealthy for me. So, the former -- it was necessary here for you? Were you uncomfortable getting back into that discussion with him? Did you feel it was regression at all? I am asking because this is something I constantly struggle with, and I have trouble sometimes distinguishing between the two. My emotions supercede my intellect.

I also have felt a little like straddling a fine line when I say, infer, or even feel -- that I hoped my AW would also want to work on her issues, demons, etc., or even just work on herself. From my perspective, when it has become clear to me that my AW did not want to get better -- despite all the talk, promises, inauthentic efforts, half-hearted efforts, self-sabotaged efforts, etc. -- if she did not want to get better, then me saying "I hope" almost feels like I am giving an opinion when not asked for one. I struggle with this one. I certainly will not "force my will" -- but I try to be very careful what I say about my hopes, expectations, opinions, advice, etc, as it relates to the alcoholic and their decision to get better or not.

One thing you mentioned -- which I think is very insightful and very interesting -- the anger. In my experience, there have been countless times where I've witnessed the alcoholic get angry -- and initially, I could never tell if they were angry at me, themselves, the situation, someone else, etc. What I've found -- when looking at this disease, and all of my experience, and I do not mean to stereotype or generalize, however, I've found that often the alcoholic, for a glimpse, for a moment, is sometimes angry at themselves. Just for a moment, and that is a trigger. The moment it happens -- then they have to lash out, blame, etc. It is their only release. They certainly can't look at the reality and blame themselves, be angry at themselves, take ownership, etc. -- if they did, that might be the point where they want to get better. That might be the rock bottom they need. Who knows. However, I found that whenever the alcoholic gets angry, it is so very common for them to lash out at someone, usually people closest to them (because they tend to get away with it, LOL), they tend to blame someone, anyone, everyone else -- except themselves. Blame, denial, whatever. It is part of the progressive, decimating, insidious, cunning, and baffling disease that we face.
I think it's going to be a weird night.

Even when my AW, and other alcoholics/addicts I have known -- even when they know, truly know, they need help...it still doesn't mean they are truly ready and want it. It is sad.

Thank you so much again for posting all of this PNP. Focus on YOU. I admire and respect you and all that you are doing.

P and P, Thank you for starting this thread. It is so valuable for you to state your situation and emotions. It really brings me back to the "BAD OLD DAYS" when I was living in the middle of it and my emotions were just like yours.

And thank you Bo, for your responses and this last thread about anger. It reminded me that what helped me to get through the AH's anger was to remind myself of the mental illness component of this disease. It kept my expectations down.

AlAnon teachings and all my AlAnon friends kept reminding me to keep the focus on what was good for me and good for the kids. It all helped me.

Thank you.

P and P, I love this thread you started..and AS i read YOUR posts, I see growing Insight...you're gonna shine...and one day you will be helping other spouses of alcoholics find their way.....SO impressed with you......JUST saying

sure, I can "hope" that my A brother will get help and reach out for sobriety, but I have zero expectations....I can "hope" that a lot of things happen, but if they are out of MY control, I try to keep expectations low or at least realistic per the evidence I see.....I still see it as "ok" to have "hope" but I place that hope in more realistic venues.........and I do "get it" when you say "it would be a huge trigger if I had any hope for our marriage" one CAN go to the well, one time too many and the other just "gives out" "dries up" like I did with my Ex's....I was burned out...done....I wanted to be in a better place...they did not....we were not a match.....period!!!! so what was I do do??? I assessed....ascertained what was best for me and I went for it......there isn't any right or wrong in this, it is , to me, "ok..what can I live *ok* with and what can i NOT live *ok* with???" and I made my actions from that place..........your post shows a lot of growing wisdom and facing reality.....facing reality and accepting it AFTER the feelings of hurt, anger, sadness are felt and dealt with is a sign that you are walking on a road that means healthy self care and wishing him the best, but you gotta write your own life song now as he has to write his and sometimes we see that our life songs just are not a match...........HUGS of support

An Update: I have been away from my computer for a few days now. After an exhausting week, I came home from my son's band performance (football game) to find AH was still up and watching TV. He wanted to talk about his visit to DPSS. I guess his mom came and took him for his appointment. I guess b/c he filled the online form with the same address as I did, MY application was delayed (serious eye-roll here). I told him the day I had my appointment (almost 2 weeks ago) to please make sure and NOT put the same address. Put the rehab address, a family members address anything but this one, or my and his son's application may be denied. Well, I guess they got it all fixed, and the worker told him everyone's applications should move forward now. Whew! He then began talking about taking his 401K money from his last job (~$9,000) and he was going to use it to pay rent for a few months to give us some breathing room. I explained that this wasn't a good idea, b/c he really doesn't know what will be required after rehab (sober-house living etc), and he may need some money to get out there on his own. What? What do you mean? he asked. "Are you asking me for a divorce?"
"No, I have never said, "divorce," but I told you I thought I needed to be separated from all this and son and I were moving out. His first reaction was anger... I could see it on his face. But then he broke down crying. It was all the emotions I didn't want to feel/experience. He ran to the bathroom and stayed in there crying. I told him I had to go walk the dog... I walked, and walked! I KNEW THAT THIS WAS THE NEXT RIGHT THING! Yet, I began to have doubts b/c I felt so bad for making him feel this sad. I couldn't get a hold of my sponsor, so I just kept walking! I called my brother, my mother, and finally my sponsor called me back and was actually on her way to meet me. She found me in my neighborhood, not far from my house in hysterics. Luckily she was able to calm me down and talk some sense into me. She helped me formulate the words I needed to say to him, and helped me make a list of things to "grab and go." She also waited in her car outside my home to make sure I was OK. Eventually I was able to grab stuff for me, son and the dog and get it all in the car. We did have another discussion outside on the front lawn and I just told him that I am just sorry that this is the way it is, but living with this disease for so long has left me empty... I have nothing more to give, and to please respect me enough to let me have a few days away to get a handle on my emotions. Because our son needs a stable parent, and right now I feel like I am having an emotional breakdown. He said he understood.

So my son and I have spent the weekend at my parent's house (who are out of town) and we worked our butts off cleaning the tiny house on my parents' property. We feel a great sense of accomplishment as well as hope for a peaceful future! I did ask one of his family members to do a welfare check on AH... he was fine. His nephew told me he seemed like he didn't really "get" that we were out for the weekend, but eventually the nephew said he began to see why this was needed. He told the nephew that I seemed to "have it all together, and didn't realize the extent of my pain." I told nephew that was probably true b/c Kid needs to have at least one parent who is stable, but I am at the end of my emotional tether!!! AH did call me later that night and told me he never meant to hurt me, and he doesn't want me to feel like he will always be making me feel guilty about leaving. If I need to get stuff, feel free to come and get it, he will help (If I need it), or take a walk so that he will be out of the house. Even though my sponsor feels I should've stayed "moved out," by Sunday night, my son and I were itching to get back... our work was done & we had nothing but some clothes in the new house. We both needed stuff to get ready for the upcoming week. So we went back to the house tonight. 

All seems "OK" considering what happened this weekend, and now my focus will be on getting stuff moved over, and other stuff packed up for storage. I did send his sister a text just kind of reminding them that my goal was to be out by the 30th of Sept., and they may need to start getting packing boxes etc. just in case he is not capable of packing his stuff. I know their focus is getting him into rehab, but in a few days it will be a month! They are kind of just sitting on their duffs waiting for him to do it all. I just wanted to make it clear gently, that I was not going to be "in charge" of his stuff.

Anyway, thank you to all my MIP family who in one way or another gave me the strength to take this leap of faith! Keep me in your thoughts as my son and I move through the month and try and put 29 years of stuff in boxes.

Peace!