Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

2XW · Member

Stay Or Run: How to know if your partner is serious about recovery.

Curlyblu · Senior Member

I really enjoyed reading this from someone who made to recovery. It gives a different look at things. For me the struggle is living with an A who is very active and tries to blame and hide any part of his drinking. Who won't/can't see the damage being done to our marriage and family. I truly pray that one day he'll see life in a positive recovery based way. Until then it sucks.

shrnp · Senior Member

There is a difference between Alanon and AA. The list you made is something that defines the alcoholic, and their program if they choose to be in one. People come to Alanon to learn new ways of thinking about a situation in their lives so they can change how they react to it. It is not simple to learn how to change years of thinking and behavior patterns. Everyone is at a different stage of going through the program and recovery. Some people are just admitting to themselves that their significant other or family member is an alcoholic. Other people are breaking up and moving on, and want to get advice about that. People have sons and daughters that drink or use drugs and need to learn how to detach with love and set boundaries. There are even people that are starting new relationships with straight people, and are unsure how to do that because they have lived with an alcoholics most their life. I came to Alanon recently because my friend has just been diagnosed with liver disease and I needed the support. The things you wrote are great but it is about the alcoholic, and personally I am in Alanon for myself.

MissM · Senior Member

Thanks for your perspective 2XY and congratulations on your 10 years of sobriety!
Have you done much reading into what al-anon is about?
I ask because al-anon really encourages people to stop trying to analyse, interpret and "take on" what their alcoholic loved one/associate is doing or intending and instead focus on themselves. A lot of us have spent years, decades even, turning ourselves inside out trying to get inside the head of our beloved alcoholics so that we can understand, second guess and "help" and in the process we end up driving ourselves demented and become quite sick and insane ourselves. Al-anon is our own recovery from that insanity...learning to leave the addict to decide their own path, and concentrating on finding our own instead.
So if my A partner says to me (as he sometimes does), "I'm not going to drink anymore" I will accept that he means what he is saying at the time and be supportive, but i will continue to conduct my life in a way that doesn't assume he will get or stay sober...because there is simply no way for me to actually predict what he will or won't do. That is the best response for both of us, I believe, because I am not relying on him to become sober. I have accepted him as he is and if he chooses to one day actually become sober, that will be his decision and it won't be because he told me he would, or because he felt obliged to do so because he said he would (because we all know that doesn't work and it puts a horrible strain on a relationship).
Al-anon instead has taught me to love my qualifiers regardless of whether they drink or not, and to make decisions that enhance my own life irregardless of what others choose to do.
If one of the alcoholics on my life do become sober for any amount of time or for good, that might mean we can enjoy more activities together or perhaps we can share responsibilities in a way that we couldn't when they were drinking, but it isn't something I need in order to be happy anymore.
That, for me at least, is what the essence of the program is. Learning to be happy without trying to predict or manipulate what another person will or wont do, accepting people for who they are, and taking responsibility for my own happiness.
When it comes to "crossroads" decisions like you describe, I believe the al-anon perspective would be to consider whether the person's behaviour when drinking is something that can be tolerated and whether we can be happy in that situation or not because there is just no guarantee that someone who begins a recovery journey will stay on that path.
Of course in a situation where many years of sobriety have been attained, like your own, a long-term relationship would adapt, and trust and accountability would be the very welcome fruit of that, but in early recovery it is more harmful than helpful for someone in al-anon recovery to try to predict and rely on the projected actions and intentions of their alcoholic partner.
I hope this makes some kind of sense

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, 2XY for your share. For me personally, I loved it! It helped me understand that my AH isn't really serious, and that I need to keep Al-Anon ideals close so that I can manage my life.

2XW · Member

Thank you for your clarifications ((shrimp)) and ((Miss M)). Such clarifications made this post valuable to me and others who are struggling to understand the differences between the two programs. I have only been exploring Alanon for 3 months. I came to Alanon after all my years and experience in AA failed to help me help my son get sober. When I started looking around here I kept seeing the same posts over and over. And when I read descriptions of alcoholic partners, I couldn't help but think, "WTF, most of these partners don't really sound even close to getting sober." I still believe that there should be room for a distinction to be made between the earnest individual pulling out all the stops to achieve long term sobriety and those not even trying. I am not the only person in the world with long term sobriety. There are many others I've met in the rooms who also have 10-40 years of long term sobriety. Don't these people deserve relationships? And if they do, then where is the common ground between Alanon and AA that could help those who take diligent actions to ensure and keep their long term sobriety have successfull relationships with partners in Alanon? Most of those I know with long term sobriety also have long term partners in Alanon. It happens every day. Why do you seek to dismiss this known reality as irrelevant?

MissM · Senior Member

I'm actually confused as to what you are asking. I don't think I have dismissed anything?
I was simply seeking to clarify that al-anon is a program for the al-anon member to find and strengthen themselves just as AA is a program for the AA member to find and strengthen their own self. Neither program is designed or intended to make relationships work. I think that successful relationships are, ideally, something people become better at when they achieve "emotional sobriety" which is what both programs aim to foster in somewhat different ways. Everyone deserves to be able to make connections and hopefully have a loving relationship if that is what they want. I wouldn't want to deny any-one that. But al-anon isn't here to make sure that AA members have some-one to support them any more than AA is there to make sure that alcoholics become people that can fulfill the needs of their partners. Each program exists to help the person that works it find joy and serenity. 2 happy, joyful people together surely have the best possible chance of enjoying a fulfilling relationship, don't you think?
I truly don't see where that is at odds with what you are saying. And I find this discussion interesting so please don't assume that I am in any way trying to be dismissive. I'm not. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying and give you the al-anon perspective, from my perspective.

-- Edited by MissM on Saturday 15th of April 2017 04:25:19 AM

2XW · Member

So helpful, ((Miss M)). Thanks for your clarification and wise words. One other thing that I take issue with is the true fact that "there are no guarantees that the addict will remain sober." There are also no guarantees that a partner won't get cancer, MS, get hit by a car or fall in love with another man or woman. To love is to risk. We are all at risk for losing our loved ones to a multitude of tragedies that are beyond our control. Why single out alchohol? And if you must single it out because that's the focus of your program; if you mutually share a deep love that you want to save with an alchoholic in recovery, then is'nt it better to minimize your risk by knowing whether or not they're steadfast and dillegent in their recovery efforts. It's easy to say his or her recovery is none of my business. But wouldn't any sane individual want to know how to better weed out the unrepentant liers from those who are serious about their sobriety - who might prove worthy of their support and love?

MissM · Senior Member

Yup, sure. But if you've lived with a partner who falls in love with another man or woman every single day for 3,5,10 years, or gets hit by a car and develops MS every single day by lunchtime, you're probably well advised to take some steps to make your future experience a little bit less emotionally devastating.
And you're preaching to the choir anyway; I am in a long term relationship with an alcoholic and to be honest, I don't see his sobriety or non-sobriety as a "risk". He just is who he is, and he will do life the way he wants and needs to do it. I don't need to know if he is or isn't in recovery, unless he wants to share it with me and needs me to support him in some way. To thine own self be true, and all of that.
I didn't reply to your thread to start an argument, I just found it interesting and thought discussing the nuances of the programs might be worthwhile.
Some other people have found what you have shared really helpful and that's great. I wasn't in any way trying to disparage it.
I am sorry if I have expressed myself poorly.

2XW · Member

((Miss M)). I myself too just felt that the issues in the thread and posts were worth exploring and discussing. I never took you to be argumentative. And I certainly never ment to come off that way, and I apologize if I did. I was just curious on other people's perspectives. I very much appreciated your comments.

MissM · Senior Member

Here's the part of your standpoint that I struggle with.

"is'nt it better to minimize your risk by knowing whether or not they're steadfast and dillegent in their recovery efforts."

You can't know that. You can't ever know what another person is thinking or intending, and even if you could, you can't know what another person is going to do tomorrow if circumstances change and something happens that throws all of their resolutions and best intentions into the toilet. If you've spent 10 years in AA, then you know that people can catapult themselves off the wagon at a moment's notice when some small thing happens that triggers the parts of themselves that just don't have another way to manage. And there is just no way for another person to guarantee that will never happen. But of course, years of seeing it in action will alter that. Years with a sober partner will tell me, "yeah, there's at least a 50/50 chance he's going to use his recovery tools to get himself out of this". People get stronger the more they practice doing something a different way, a way that works better for them. Someone with a lot of sobriety is probably going to at least consider using the tools they have learned rather than just taking a grandiose leap off the wagon. Someone with no recovery and a lot of good intentions...well they might want to, but no way are they guaranteed to.
My guy can swear to me, black and blue, that the only thing that matters to him is getting himself right and having a future with me. And yet, years of experience tell me that there are so many triggers and situations that plunge him back into his safe place, which seems to be a grey area with fuzzy edges and a lot of empty bottles. And he's an addictive sort of person; I can very well imagine him going to AA and getting very excited about it for a few months, and being absolutely sure that this is the only way....until something changes and that's not what he wants anymore and suddenly we are knee-deep in empty bottles and puke and warrants. But that's me, trying to predict what he will do. It's faulty thinking. Really faulty. I can't predict what I will do either, really. I have my own demons. We all do.

I believe in love, 2XW. I love my guy to the ends of the earth, but I cannot spend any more of my life watching his actions and trying to work out what he thinks or what he intends because that is my drug of choice (thinking that I have some sort of profound understanding or control over other people's motivations). (I don't).

Funny thing is, when I stopped living with my guy, he was so F%^'d up and dangerous that I was sure he would dissolve into alcoholic oblivion. He seemed days away from a psych ward, or jail, or death. He didn't go that way tho.. It's been 2.5 years, almost 3, and he now has a steady job, car, investments, and some self esteem. He's a freaking super-hero compared to the guy I had to protect myself from almost 3 years ago. Who could have predicted that? He didn't get sober, or work a program, or do any of the things people say an alcoholic "has" to do to get better. And he sure as crap didn't project a attitude of surrender or anything like that. He just did his own thing and it seems to be working for him. I am starting to feel trust, and maybe hope that maybe, it could be that we can have a future together. But it's very, very early days and i'd be extremely foolish to assume that this is "who he is now". He spent 40 years coping with his pain with dysfuntion and he's had what, a couple of years of practice doing it a different way? I doubt that is the default.

I'll stop before I have written an irrelevant novel about my own experiences. But you know, 10 miles in and 10 miles out and all that. I think, trusting someone to be able to navigate life's changes with you comes from a lot of experience seeing them navigate those changes in a stable and sustainable way. It doesn't come from being told that they WANT to do that, or they INTEND to do that.

What you have shared is your experience of recovery and I salute you for that. But people are wonderful, unpredictable, and absolutely autonomous. You can't predict what someone else will do any better than I can.

Whew, was I triggered much?
Sorry, lol.

(((2XW and everyone))))

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Interesting exchange. I tend to agree with Ms.M. People are unpredictable and the opinions expressed by2XW are his own and not written in stone. Take what you like and leave the rest

My son was a dedicated AA member for 14 years, attended meetings, had a sponsor and sponsees, could recite the AA Big Book backward and forward, He had a disagreement with his girlfriend (who was in alanon),relapsed and died from this disease within 4 years.

Alanon suggests that we keep the focus on ourselves, develop a relationship with our H P, clean house, let go of destructive tools and develop new tools to live by. By then, placing healthy principles above personalities, the resulting interactions with the world and the alcoholic will be constructive and guided by HP.

This is a dreadfully unpredictable disease so that learning how to detach and listen to the small voice within has worked for me.

2XW · Member

(Miss M.) All of our paths are different. And just as no one can guarantee that someone's sobriety will stick. No one can guarantee that you won't deeply regret losing the most meaningful "love of your life" by failing to give someone whose actions(the list above) are reflective of someone deeply repentant and demonstrate that he/she is dead serious about perusing lifelong recovery. My drinking caused seemingly unrecoverable problems in my first year of marriage. I thank God that my wife chose to stick it out and support me through rehab and recovery. Today our relationship and love for each other is stronger than ever. And after almost two years of lying about my drinking, it certainly wasn't my words that convinced her to stay. It was my actions. She saw my desire and earnest effort to get sober through many of the actions outlined in the list above. My sponser is married with 38 years of sobriety and most of my friends have 10+ years and all of them got sober as well through the actions in the list. And yes, you can get sober following a different path. And yes I know a few who relapsed taking these actions. But most who were diligent succeeded in staying sober and the few that relapsed - quickly returned to recovery in 3 or 4 months. The love I have for my wife for believing in me is infinite. I'm still working these actions every day because I never want to let her down. Everyone's experience is different. And all I'm saying is that there are many relationships that stuck it out and successfully recovered together. It happens more frequently then these boards would lead you to believe. Most who post here come to vent their problems. No one posts here to vent their happiness. After spending a few weeks reading these boards I think I owe my wife a present.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Since we are not mind readers, I would venture to say that most come to these Boards and to alanon face to face meetings, looking for help in order to maintain a marriage or relationship.
Alanon meetings and this Board have many members myself included, who have stayed in relationships or are in relationships with alcoholics You may be preaching to the choir. Other AA member might like to hear your appreciation of your partner so they too can feel the same.

These Message Boards and alanon itself would not exist if all we did was complain about our lives We share positive experience, strength and hope with each other in order to grow and live with dignity and spirituality . We explain the disease concept of alcoholism and offer constructive tools to live by.
We do not judge or evaluate each other and practice acceptance of life on life's terms.
.

Curlyblu · Senior Member

((Everyone)) this thread shows a different view and I really enjoyed it. Yes it can bring on a good debate, of which very good points were made. It's not about throwing our hands up in air, it's about doing what's right for our own personal situation. Like M, she may not live with her A, loves him deeply (yes an A deserves love too) but as tough as it is as found her own way. And for some others the struggles are just too much, and leaving was their best choice. I too love my A. I may not like him most days, but I know the man. I don't know what the future has in store, just like everyone else. I do know that I have to get myself right, to deal with his drinking should it continue, and to be able to be supportive should he turn to get well. I'm so happy for you that you found your path early into your marriage. I've been with my A for 12 years (the last year for sure as been the worst) , he had been through treatment before I met him. He was proud of that at one time. Maybe one day he will again. Yes 2X, take her out on a special date

2XW · Member

((hotrod)) So saddened to hear about your son. I'm so sorry. I'll say a prayer for you today. I posted my last post before seeing yours. It frightens me deeply because I have a son out there now that I have detached from with love so that he might find his bottom. It's heartbreaking.

MissM · Senior Member

Also you mention trying to get your son sober. If you feel so inclined, this is a really good place to talk about that.
Just sayin.

MissM · Senior Member

Snap, I posted my last before you posted your last.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

(2XW)) Positive thoughts and prayers on the way. This is indeed a dreadful disease I am glad you found recovery.

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

Hi 2xw,

Thanks for this post. I think it's good to have discussions such as this and be open to the perspectives of others. When I read posts at the Alanon board which are more in relation to AA and the alcoholics in my life, I read along putting my own Alanon recovery in place of the alcoholics. Ours is a program of self focus as much as AA. I must always be aware of my own recovery and my own willingness to work it. When I'm evaluating my loved willingness, I've lost my humility and no longer see myself as an equal to another human being. As an Alanon I have to be careful of black and white thinking. We say in this program "Keep an Open Mind." I believe there is a higher power, some entity out in the universe which is much more powerful than all my projections concerning my life and the lives of the alcoholics whom I love. This Letting Go and Letting God is the surrender of my own life to that hp. The Alanon program, a loving sponsor and higher power of unconditional love keeps me focused what I can work on within myself to live more fully - to have a happy joyous and free life. If this is dependent on my loved one's sobriety, the alcoholic's sobriety then becomes my higher power.

I have unrecovering family members and am with someone who is in recovery in AA. I believe that alcoholism is an illness. I also believe no two people are alike. An alcoholic may have other illnesses which affect their sobriety/sanity. An alanon my have other illnesses/addictions (examples: addicted to the alcoholic's acceptance, food, shopping etc) all of which can affect one's sanity. So, to me we are more alike than we are different. Therefore, I can read your post and put myself in place of the alcoholic. I can hate the disease and still love the person (myself and the alcoholic).

I can see how all of these all of these self focused behaviors that are listed your post can pertain to me as well as a recovering person in the Alanon program.

A person in recovery is genuinely grateful to those who helped them get into recovery and will embrace and thank those who directly confronted their disease.

They will be more humble and stumble less and less.

They will stay away from previous hotspots, bars, drug dens, pharmacies, etc. that were associated with pre-recovery behaviors.

They will have improved emotional regulation with less ups and downs.

They will learn how to silence negative self talk.

They will begin to focus more on others and get relief from the bondage of self.

They will have greater spiritual awareness: connecting with a power greater than themselves.

They will begin to exhibit less negative thinking, isolation behavior and a general uneasiness/restlessness with life.

The decision to live under the same roof with another person, stay married etc. is a personal one that only the people involved can make. The Alanon program doesn't advise people concerning that. But I never knew how much I personally needed to change until finding this program. I'm grateful that the disease of alcoholism led me to Alanon. I could have gone many more years not knowing how to give serenity to a my own simmering emotional dis-ease.

I'm also very grateful for open AA speaker meetings where as an Alanon I've gotten to hear the stories of recovering alcoholics over the years. What I have heard over and over again is that no one event causes relapse. Speakers shared that they'd stopped going to meetings, calling their sponsors, chosen to isolate from their higher power and others in AA. Another common theme was disregarding self care by electing to discontinue medication for mental or physical illness. I've heard others share about lots of starts and stops - small relapses such as one day and back to AA the next day to be welcomed back. These are simply things I have heard shared in open AA meetings. These sharings were of individuals and although I heard some common themes, I can never know the inner workings of any person and why they make some of the choices they make. Concerning my own love ones, I keep my serenity by accepting that their choices are between them and their higher power. And although sobriety may not be at stake for those in Alanon, my own sanity can begin to unravel if I stay away from Alanon for too long. Although I've known progress, unhealthy judgement and lack of humility return when I stay away from meetings. Also, just like those in AA, there are situations that can lead to death for Alanons as well when we stop practicing self care and isolate ourselves from our higher power and our fellows.

"Stay Or Run: How to know if your partner is serious about recovery ?" This subject line made me think of our acronym for FEAR.F everything and run? Face everything and recover? We say this in Alanon.

Again, I choose to turn the finger toward myself. When I, myself am recovering in Alanon I can make a well thought out decision as to whether I want to stay in a relationship. Before recovery, I rarely took thoughtful action. My choices were kneejeck reactions based on fear or pain. Making decisions without thoughtful consideration created greater problems for me.

Thanks for sharing (((2wx)))). Glad you joined us for Alanon recovery. TT

2XW · Member

As you said ((tiredtonight)) that after relapse, "Speakers shared that they'd stopped going to meetings, calling their sponsors, chosen to isolate from their higher power and others in AA.) As these are all clues on the list. I still say one can use this info to gauge someones potential for recovery or relapse if one wanted to. But I get it, Alanonics don't do this. They keep the focus on themselves. But I feel if you're living with someone you can't help but notice a drop off in meetings, the absence of a sponsor or isolation and not wonder wtf is going on - even if you choose to ignore it for your own wellbeing.

MissM · Senior Member

2XW yes, of course it's hard to keep the focus on yourself. Especially when the person you love is going through hell and all you want to do is reach out and try to fix it. It's freaking agonising.
I may be wrong but it feels like you are looking for some kind of validation that it's good and right for an al-anon member to be focused on their alcoholic partner. Of course that's hard not to do. If you love someone, watching them struggle is horrific. Most of the people on this board have been through it.
But I will explain again...what al-anon recovery is about is trying to help people get past that and take care of themselves. One of the things that we often say is that if the alcoholic was in their right mind, they wouldn't want us to suffer every pain of their disease with them. I hold fast to that..that if my alcoholic qualifiers were thinking straight, they wouldn't want me to be miserable along with them.
I reckon you should start a new thread, and maybe introduce your own al-anon related issues. This board isn't here for people to debate how al-anon members should feel or what they should think.

jitsuka · Senior Member

The A in my life demonstrates not one iota of attempting recovery, recogintion, acceptance or anything.

In fact I am very, very stressed tonight and feel very highly strung.

The A in my life was extremely rude, beligerent, talking over me when I was trying to watch a TV programme. Turned the TV off 'It's my house' etc etc.

Turned the power off when I turned the TV back on.

Unplugged the router and took it.

I felt like smashing her face in quite frankly and it took all my self-control to just put myself in front of my computer, turn it on, put my headphones on and isolate myself.

She staggered back about 10 mins later, plugged the router back in.

I practised my serenity and just ignored the drunken piece of s***.

Tomorrow I am going out and going to watch a film, go to an art gallery, do things for me. I don't want to be around her at all. She's an ugly, horrible person and I am trapped in this relationship.

I definitely want out - there is no future for me or our daughter (I have to stay here to protect her).

I no longer care whether she lives or dies - in fact I want her to die. It would be a lot easier for me and my daughter.

2XW · Member

((Jitsuka)) so sorry for what you're going through. Take care of yourself and your girl. ((Miss M)) I'm not trying to convince anybody. I just stated some facts about how to regcognize some signs that suggest whether or not someone is seriously working on recovery so folks don't have to fall for endless BS from someone not walking the walk. If it's useful great. If not discard it. I'm done here. Your right, I am moving on to focus on my own my own Alanon issues.

jitsuka · Senior Member

2XW wrote:
((Jitsuka)) so sorry for what you're going through. Take care of yourself and your girl. ((Miss M)) I'm not trying to convince anybody. I just stated some facts about how to regcognize some signs that suggest whether or not someone is seriously working on recovery so folks don't have to fall for endless BS from someone not walking the walk. If it's useful great. If not discard it. I'm done here. Your right, I am moving on to focus on my own my own Alanon issues.

((2XW))

Thank you.

I'm feeling calmer now, I just needed that head space to allow all my extreme feelings to churn and the waters to calm down. I've got al-anon to thank for that, I need to get back onto my steps. I detached a long time ago and I'm probably on step 4 or 6 - I can't remember!

I've already planned what I'm going to do tomorrow, there's a couple of good films I could catch (Logan and Ghost In The Shell), there's also a VERY awesome Andy Warhol exhibition on at a local art gallery. I could just get lost there for hours!

Enigmatic · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey all, looks like I'm late to an interesting exchange. 2XW, sounds like you are on your way out of the thread, thank you for sharing your experience with the programs, and congrats on your sobriety and relationship longevity.

I had just a couple of comments to add as I scanned down through thread. I have some experience with both programs, and of course they both work the (very similar) 12 Steps, but with entirely different focus: each focuses on the unique set of challenges before them.

As an Alanoner, one constant theme in my life, and one of the reasons I reached out for recovery, is my unsuccessful but constant efforts to control the people and things in my life, including the alcoholic. One of the symptoms included constant monitoring, "reading", second guessing and out thinking the alcoholic and others in my life.

AlAnon presented another way, beginning with Step 1: that I needed to accept that I was powerless over alcohol, the alcoholic, and everyone and most everything else around me, and my attempts to control them were at the root of my life's unmanageability. I could do this by acknowledging that, when it comes to alcoholism: I didn't Cause it, cannot cure it, cannot control it.

Recovery of the alcoholic is the business of the alcoholic and their higher power, not something to be judged or determined by me. For me to get caught up in trying to determine the sincerity, earnestness of their efforts is to step into god's role...those shoes are impossible for me to fill.

For some alcoholics, their earnest efforts require many tries, sometimes over years. You noted that you struggled for a year in your addiction. For some alcoholics, their behavior includes violent and dangerous actions. For AlAnoners in these settings, especially those with children involved, the decision to be made is not between compliance or surrender, or whether or not the alcoholic is earnest and sincere, but what must be done to maintain personal safety. Verbal and emotional abuse suffered during the addict's struggle can also be extremely damaging.

One of the suggestions in AlAnon is that members of the fellowship do not give advice to others about what they should do, for none of us are in the position to know what the other is prepared for emotionally or physically, or the nature of their relationship and propensity for violence on the part of the alcoholic. It would be unethical, and highly irresponsible for any of us to suggest someone stay with an alcoholic when they have decided it is not safe or healthy for them to do so.

The second comment I wanted to make was directed toward this statement you made:

"And all I'm saying is that there are many relationships that stuck it out and successfully recovered together. It happens more frequently then these boards would lead you to believe. Most who post here come to vent their problems."

It is true, this is a fellowship of those who are concerned and affected by the drinking of someone they know, so it is a likely spot to find such expressions. This is particularly the case with those who have not had a lot of time in the program and/or do not have other outlets for their pain.

I have been a regular part of these boards for over three years, however, and while there is certainly an ebb and flow to the contributions, there are many, many contributors here who share several times a week, if not daily, and never fail to end on a positive note and highlight how the program of AlAnon has helped them mightily to improve themselves and their ability to address the challenges they face, whether it be ongoing issues with an active alcoholic in their life or other challenging situation.

I feel badly that you missed out on these expressions of Experience, Strength and Hope in your browsing here. I invite you to take a closer look. I found there to be many differences in the two programs of AA and AlAnon, but most of all I appreciate what brings the two together: concern about the toll that alcohol can take, and the best practices for each member to help themselves and those around them to find recovery and serenity.

I wish you the best on your continued recovery, 2WX, all the best...

2XW · Member

Wow ((Enigmatic)). Thank you. That summed up the exchachange perfectly. For me the conversation's value came from it's clarification of the differences in the two programs and how they fit into each partners individual recovery. I thank you all for helping me learn a bit more about Alanon.

Stan1 · Senior Member

Thank you 2XW for sharing your road to recovery and what you learned on your way. Interesting to hear how the 2 parallel each other yet differ. My RA celebrated his 17th year a few months ago. I can't really say I paid any attention when he chose sobriety as I was still trying to clean up the mess from the chaos. Thankfully I found Al-Anon and basically learned to mind my own business and leave my A to his. What I didn't anticipate was the disease traveling to both of our sons and how much harder it was for me to detach from them. Watching them suffer the consequences of their actions was and is still gut wrenching. The Mom in me still wants to jump in and fix it so they aren't in pain. I do know so well that my interference only makes matters worse. I have never asked them anything about their program or journey so it was enlightening to listen to an AA. May your sobriety be continuous.

2XW · Member

Have nothing more to add to the AA/Alanon tread but jumping back in since ((Stan1)) segued into my Alanon issues. Stan I feel your pain. Having an alcoholic son when I'm active in recovery is like watching a horror movie that I know the ending to but am helpless to change the upcoming scenes or ending. My son came home Christmas break and told us he wasn't going back to school cause he never went to classes his first semester. He spent his days and wasted student loan money getting drunk and high. I told him he could not stay with me unless he went to a 28 day rehab. My ex (his mom) refused to get on board with me and took him in. After she realized I was right she kicked him out as well. Right now he is living with friends at school crashing on their couch in an off campus apartment. But at the end of the spring semester he will be homeless. I have no contact with him and I just have to be patient until he gets desperate enough to accept my offer for rehab and pray nothing awful happens before he has a moment of sanity and wakes up. Stay strong.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

The disease creates its own levels of pain and illness which often times is very unbearable and seemingly endless. Little did I know that I could end it myself by choosing to come into and working the programs rather than continue to fight them with an ego full of denial and a mind attempting to convince myself and others that I could best the disease with useless attempts. A power greater than myself? how could I ever grasp that concept and then after one early 3am wandering in the parking lot of a shopping center impatiently awaiting the arrival of a space ship that would remove me from the battle area I quit and went for the next best choice...aiding two local police officers in finding a criminal attempting to burglarize a closed laundromat. They made a poor choice in sending me home to bed. What's that last word of the 2nd step again? ((((hugs)))) wink

The majority of the AA/Al-Anon fellowship that I participate with have similar stories of insanity and some worse or way worse. Who am I to doubt the program and a power greater than I?

-- Edited by Jerry F on Saturday 15th of April 2017 08:41:19 PM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

My experience with qualifying for Al-Anon is real close to Stan1 - two sons that are affected and an AH who I met/married in AA. He relapsed at about the 8-9 year mark and never returned to recovery. He was the love of my life when we met and dated for 2-3 years before marriage. We (unplanned) got pregnant and became parents within the first year. I then got pregnant while nursing and our 2nd born son was born almost 2 years after. So - he relapsed between the birth of the two, denied it for 7-8 years, hid it well and lied profusely to manipulate and confuse me - he was successful!!

I have to keep things really simple in my brain, or my over-analyzing, over-thinking hat returns to my head. For me, I live the AA program to understand and appreciate my relationship with Alcohol and substances...I live the Al-Anon program to understand and appreciate my relationship between me and outside influences (people, places and things).

In both, I am powerless, get insane and need a spiritual solution. In both, I keep the focus on me and live one day at a time. My AH has cut way down on his consumption because he has heart disease. My oldest is active again, not yet out of control. My youngest is inactive at the moment only because his last adventure with the disease got him put into jail. We've opted to leave him sit there until court (May ... sometime)

All I know is anytime I think I've got something figured out, I'm wrong and caught off-guard. When I keep my focus on me, I am far less devastated and crazy when others do what they do. I so agree with the horror move analogy above me - so can relate. I have known folks who died from the disease, others who got sober and stayed sober. I've watched folks with years of recovery relapse and return and others who never make it back. All I know - if I keep the focus on me all of these events can happen and not send me spiraling out of control.

I've seen folks with 'way less than stellar' program effort stay sober and others who truly want it and embrace it and can not. It is truly a maddening disease with unknown outcomes. Great topic and discussion all!

shrnp · Senior Member

2XW,
I am a recovering alcoholic/drug addict. I have been in recovery for 14 years and have been in AA. You cannot learn how to be different if you think you know it all. Both programs require someone to humble themselves and practice humility. Good luck with your journey!

2XW · Member

((Shrnp)). This is how I learn new things. I put my ideas out there, keep an open mind and wait for feedback. If you read all of my posts you'll notice that I thanked everyone for feedback and helping me understand a different perspective. Every post I make.comes with an expectation that someone is going to teach me something.

-- Edited by 2XW on Sunday 16th of April 2017 06:06:07 AM

-- Edited by 2XW on Sunday 16th of April 2017 06:06:55 AM

Doingmybest · Senior Member

First, I want to thank the original poster for giving his true feelings, thoughts, and beliefs to us in this AlAnon forum (or at least to those of us trying to live the best we can following the AlAnon ideology). For those who may not believe or understand his opinion...My RAH (married just shy of 22 yrs...in recover just over 2 years) is an almost perfect example of the description he provided.

By this I mean you can "feel" his recovery and his appreciation for the love and acceptance of others who supported him. Will he drink today? I have no idea, because his recovery is just that...his recovery. He has not displayed any signs that he will drink, but I can not live my life in constant worry of what he will choose to do. Should he relapse, I will be "forced" to rethink my decision to stay in our marriage, as I refuse to go back to living as things were when he was actively drinking and I was most assuredly as "insane" as any co-dependent could be. I simply cannot go back, and I pray he continues to make the same decision.

I truly believe (and I believe the CAL supports the belief) that AlAnon was conceived as a program to help the families (and others) affected by alcoholism. I do not believe the two programs are in any way in competition or conflict. In fact, I think families where the spouses each work their own program, while supporting the efforts of the other are apt to be the healthiest and strongest, no matter what life throws at them.

I can clearly see 90-95% of the behaviors described in the original post in my RAH. These "new" behaviors did not happen all at once, but they did happen. He is still human...and he still does things that make me want to ring his neck, but I would hope I have learned enough about forgiveness to understand he is no more perfect or imperfect than I. And, I am most certainly NOT perfect! In fact, I find myself having to rethink my words or actions quite a bit and I find making amends for my words or actions to be a large part of my life. Each day, I try to see my contribution to "problems/disagreements" And to make amends for my part.

I thank the original poster for taking the time to give us the perspective of someone who works their program and lives it. I believe, to obtain true recovery, an alcoholic must not only recognize the issue, but must fully surrender his or her will to a power greater than themselves and must be willing to give back to others by sharing what was so freely given to them. I believe this because I have personally witnessed the "depth" of honesty, sincerit, and peace demonstrated since my RAH has begun working with sponsee(s) of his own, while still keeping in very close/very consistent contact with his own sponsor.

I will not lie and say I have not been jealous at times because I felt he is often unavailable for me (and is always available for AA), but I have had to "check" myself and to be thankful that the time we have together now is so much more valuable than before sobriety. No, he doesn't "fawn" over me as he did when he was drinking. That was a distraction (and quite annoying to be honest) but the love is real now and good, and solid, and honest....and you CAN feel it.

Thank you for this thread.

For those who may disagree with my words, please take what you like and leave the rest. I will not argue or defend as these are my feelings and mine alone...and we are each entitled to hold our own beliefs and to post without judgment.

Peace and happiness to all on this Easter Day (a two year celebration of the day I accepted my part in the destruction of my marriage/family) and asked God and my AH for forgiveness (and to come home). It was my first real step in recovery and my attempt to provided love and support to my H as he concentrated on finding recovery instead of wallowing in the despair of Hell which he finally saw when he hit bottom).

serenity47 · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you for sharing your perspective. Congratulations on your own sobriety. I particularly like the statement that recovery is silent. More the walk and less the talk. That goes for myself as well. Its easy for me to sound good but unless I am willing to do the daily work required for recovery, I fall back quickly into old habits of trying to control outcomes and having expectations . My daughter is my qualifier who brought me here. It has been the most painful experience of my life to date. I was very focused on her recovery efforts in the beginning and I still am some days. That is not good for either one of us. I have seen a lot of the things in your list in her. I do not comment on her recovery as it is her recovery. I tell her often that she is loved and valued and that I am grateful she is my daughter. Irregardless of where she is in her recovery path, that will never change. I don't always like what she does and that's ok because its really none of my business. I set my boundaries, and try to let go and let god. Good luck with your son, I pray he will find his way into recovery as well.

2HP · Senior Member

Thank you for your post, I think it's a helpful read for progress in recovery. Like a few others here, I used your list to gauge my own recovery in al-anon because I was taught to stay on my side of the street.

I think your list is valid. There are indeed outward signs of tapping into a Power Greater. Even the great gurus and sages have such lists.

And though we, in Al-anon, try to become less judgmental of others, we will never do this entirely because we human beings have a self-preservation instinct, divinely installed in us. We judge situations and people to determine whether or not we are safe. we can and should protect our mind, body and spirit, it is our personal responsibility....

If the house is on fire (danger) I make the judgment to run out...

If a car on the road is swerving, I make the judgment to get out of the way...

If someone is abusing me in any way, I can make a judgment....

and yet many of us come into recovery very confused about personal safety. We suffer from long-term "effects" of living in dysfunction that we dont even recognize when we are not safe, our divine instinct got lost. We got used to neglecting ourselves and shutting down our feelings.

we desperately wanted to believe that a limited human being was the solution for getting our needs met. We believed we could only love this one person and that our salvation rested with that relationship working out. and we did not want to be told otherwise...

when my fellow al-anons made these suggestions, I ran away. For twenty years, I ran. I was not ready and I exercised my free will.

Once I got back into Al-anon, I got an equal dose of nurturing and a** kicking. The a**-kicking made me (my disease) so angry but at that point I had no where else to go. Looking back, it could have been no other way, God was behind it all. I needed both the love and the discipline.

After some meetings, certain members came up to me and told me to stop hanging off the side of the recovery boat, to get my a** all the way in. "Make the decision, are you in or out? Defiant or reliant?" God, I wanted to strangle them all.

at the time, I was making 4 meetings a week and meeting weekly with a sponsor to discuss the steps. I had done multiple inventories... so,I couldn't see how I was only halfway in the recovery boat. Right or wrong, what did this experience propel me to do?

I began a personal step study. Looking back, it was like going to war on my dis-ease. and I began to use step one as admit powerlessness over the EFFECTS that living with alcoholism had on ME. that I too, had become "sick."

Perhaps it's obvious I was surrounded by some a**kicking double-winners, you think?!!!! For me, I was as desperate as any alcoholic. and so God brought me the a**kicking double winners. wanting to be strong in recovery, they told me to "persevere" ...like going to the gym because... if my recovery isn't lifting "weights," my disease will begin to. Doesn't make anyone "better" than anyone else, just makes some more desperate and willing.

I don't think it matters who "stays or goes".... everyone is exercising their God-given FREE WILL to live the life they aspire to. My personal belief is that we will all "win" eventually.

Thank you for your post, I hope you continue to share your journey here ((hugs))

-- Edited by 2HP on Sunday 16th of April 2017 06:18:44 PM

-- Edited by 2HP on Sunday 16th of April 2017 06:25:21 PM

shrnp · Senior Member

2XW,
I have to apologize if my previous post was rude. Sometimes I am too frank and should not be making comments. I know more people who have chosen to remain in their relationships with a significant other that drinks or uses drugs than people who have chosen to leave them. I think people come to this forum in a crisis mode and need to reach out to others that will not be judgmental. That might be why a lot of post appear to be about if someone is going to stop drinking or not, or if someone should stay in a relationship or leave. I think every few weeks we have a discussion similar to this one here. I don't think alcoholism by itself is a reason to end a relationship. However, the consequences of alcoholism and the behavior of some alcoholics can be severe enough that someone wants to leave or has to leave.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I do believe that I was confused by the title of this posting. I felt it suggested that there was a formula that we could use to gage a persons dedication to recovery. If we found that the person was not committed enough or not reflecting the signs in the original post then we should leave.

These are not alanon principles. Alanon suggests that we look to ourselves,dedicate ourselves to recovery and then if the marriage is not working or if our still small voice indicates a change then we should act

There are no hard and fast rules in program such as - if this happens then you do that, If this person looks or sounds good then stay. If this person is faltering then leave.

The original post did not indicate over what period of time we were talking about . I have lived through the first year of sobriety, and it has been challenging. It takes time to develop the principles that are outlined. I believe the first year of sobriety is tenuous at best.

We who live with the disease develop many negative coping tools so that working the Steps, sharing, writing gratitude and asset lists all work to restore our ability to live with courage, serenity and wisdom . This is a fellowship of equals and we grow by sharing or ESH. It is important that we learn to" take what we like and leave the rest".

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Let me preface my comments by saying -- I have always said this is not a program you do alone. While I am sure it has happened, after being in the rooms for over 20 years, the best recovery I have seen is from people who did the work, had a sponsor, worked with him/her, received experience, guidance, wisdom, etc., from someone who "had been there before" so to speak. Recovery is something that must have help, support, etc. That said, if you look at the 12 steps, our daily readers, literature -- we don't see the orientation of "I" or "me" -- the perspective, mindset, methodology, is "us" and "we". While a different topic -- recovery also involves objectivity, another's perspective, accountability, and the experience and support of another who can provide a great deal of things that we might find elusive if we are doing it alone.

Be that as it may -- I have always found it easy to tell when someone is serious about recovery. It is simple. What is difficult is to know whether or not we/you are in a healthy place, are ready, really want the answer to that question, etc. Are you being open and honest -- YOU -- with yourself. Denial? Oblivious? Anyway, it's easy to tell if in fact you really want to see the truth. Now, having said that -- am I saying the al-anon member should be focused on the alcoholic -- no, absolutely not. However, I do think there are times, many times, where it can be important to know, whether or not the alcoholic is serious about recovery. If a person is deciding whether or not they are going to "stay" or "go -- they need to decide how they want to live the rest of their life, what kind of like they want to live, and so on. I had to decide who I wanted to be married to, and what kind of life I wanted to live. I wanted to live, be married to a person who was living a life of recovery -- had the intention, desire, motivation, who truly wanted to be clean and sober. Who is she being? How does she want to live? What is her intention? If you don't think you can see it -- then I think you are not wanting to see it. I am not talking about the psychological aspect, but the intention, being aspect. Who are they being -- do they really want to get clean and sober? Not talk, actions. Are their actions congruent with a person who wants to be, live, stay, clean and sober. I never really cared about the words, claims, promises, and all that. Let me see. Let me see the actions. How is she living -- definitive, with intention, focus on being clean and sober, wanting it, working toward it. What happens when there is a slip? What's the immediate mindset, desire, action. I think it's easy to tell. And, for someone who is working toward making a decision, it can be very important.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

I was thinking about the stay or run element of this. I've always said this is not a program that teaches you how to tolerate the intolerable. It is not a program that teaches you how to accept the unacceptable. It is not a program that gets you to stay, nor is it a program that teaches you how to leave/divorce/etc.

However, this is a program of recovery. All of us know that. Some people, newcomers, perhaps don't know what recovery really is. Al-Anaon is a program that will help you get better. It will allow you to reach a point where, if need be, if you are ready, if you want, etc., you can make healthy decisions, decisions that are best and healthiest for you. You will be making decisions from a place of strength, intellect, logic, rational, quality thought process, healthiness, all very good things. You will not be making decisions from a place of fear, duress, illogical or irrational thought process, chaos, drama, and so on.

Leaving or staying...is not about this program...it is about YOU.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene