The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I have only read one reading recently that had to do with the obsession and compulsion of the alcoholic. Are topics of mental illnesses off limits in Alanon? I can see that you would not want to replace a doctor or suggest someone's A has a mental illness. But, many people that abuse alcohol and other substances might have underling untreated conditions and are self-medicating. I have thought about this lately because when someone gets treatment they are screened for mental health issues. Plus, alcohol causes depression because of it's effect on your brain. I can understand that you would not want to give someone a false impression that maybe their A could get treated and not be an alcoholic. I have been in AA awhile ago, and they really did not talk about mental illness to much either. Except to say you will end up in an institution of you do not stop drinking. Is the subject of mental illness strictly a doctor patient thing?
Shrnp .. I'm all about politically incorrect subjects so I will share my experience about my XAH. LOL .. If it's not appropriate the powers that be can correct me.
My understanding is and this is based on a counselor who is a RA .. they basically said until an A is sober there is no point in treating for the issue of mental illness .. based upon my experience in listening to multiple recovering RA's and active addicts there are a variety of challenges .. I have seen OCD, Bi-Polar, the narcissistic tendencies and BPD at the forefront of mental health issues I'm sure there are many more .. I'm basing this off of the stories I have heard around the tables as well as my experience with my X. Childhood trauma is another factor of addiction as well .. finding ways to escape a painful past.
Basically if someone is not sober it is difficult to diagnosis what is going on with them because addiction and bi-polar can mirror each other. BPD is something like addiction you have to have a good self awareness and an even better Dr to diagnosis and it shouldn't be labeled easily because it's something that can be changed through behavior modification. Again not sober not going to do any good .. the disease of addiction does what is necessary to stay alive and well .. denial is only one of the tools it uses to do so.
What my experience was with my X is he was given medication and proceeded to drink and take pills originally the pills were used to squash the need to drink or he would have gone to jail because he was wearing a SCRAM bracelet on his ankle because of a DUI at the time. He was very dry, very mean and very ugly during that time. The pills became a different way to get high. So that has been my other experience is the addiction transferring to something else.
So this should be talked about because again this is my experience and a great book to read is one called Under the Influence because it talks about the affects of alcoholism on the body and brain how it progresses and the end stages of the addiction which is very sad. At least it gave me a good grasp of what I was dealing with and the realities of those who get help and move forward in positive ways for their own sanity and health. Mental health is very big it's one of the biggest reasons I have worked tirelessly to give my children coping mechanisms to help them deal with life on life terms through counseling .. neither were interested in Alanon and at some point may find their way there when they are adults .. the counseling at least opens them up to what is and is not their responsibility and lots of dialog.
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Hi Shrnp,I can understand the reason why AA and Al-Anon do not attempt to diagnose mental illness and that if a member of either program feels any more support is necessary then therapy is always available, Both conditions mimic several mental ilnesses and the program tools work with them
I did have personal experience with this issue as a manager with several employees who reported to me. One was a female who was seeing a therapist. For many years her therapist would call me and suggest that i was having unrealistic expectation of this women as she was mentally ill. One day I discovered she was also an alcoholic.
This was discovered by accident when she called in to report that she had been raped . Since she had no one in her family in the city, I went to her home and discovered, much to my surprise, she was not raped and was simply drunk and saw the empty bottles, etc all about. . . I was very surprised by this because as I said on several occasions her therapist would call me as her manager and suggest that I treat her in a different fashion and have lesser expectations of her so that she could recover from her mental illness. Never did he mention her alcoholism.
On the next occasion when he called, I happened to mention that I understood she was an alcoholic and that the company, as well as myself, were insisting that she undergo inpatient treatment for her alcoholism before she could return to work. he became incensed with that thought and said that he had to solve her underlying mental health issues first before she could address her alcohol issues.
The company had strict guidelines as to the disease of alcoholism and so she was not permitted to return to the job until she's completed a two-month inpatient alcohol rehab . . What that consisted of I do not have a clue. However, when she returned to work was able to do the job and attended AA meetings religiously until she died. Not quite sure of the moral of this tale but that I do believe mental health issues are important to address and that meetings and the program are not geared for that.But since the disease mimics many different mental illnesses, the tools seem to help address these issues .
Alcoholism is a mental health issue for all concerned. It's the three fold thing the spiritual mental and physical. Aa and alanon treat all parts which is why it's successful. To treat only the mental without the spiritual still leaves the empty holes unless of course there is a biological reason for the mental health issues. The self medication part is spot on nut prescribed Meds for alcoholism is surely still only putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. Just my view of it. I'm no expert however a doctor with little expertise on alcoholism can be another life threatening enabler.
I strongly believe that my AH has depression and deep seeded issues from childhood that he needs to address. Before alcoholism he dealt with these things in different ways (looking back) and he has even said that he uses alcohol bc he's so depressed etc. I've explained that 1) alcohol is a a depressive- so adding that to depression can only make it worse and 2) he's self medicating and the problems still exist. I wonder a lot about how he can actively recover from alcoholism without simultaneously dealing with his depression/etc. Since I can't "manage" his care, I am left to just wonder. I know for sure that I am NOT his counselor so when these things come up I simply tell him to reach out to his counselor and/or AA sponsor (neither of which I am sure actually exist) because they will have experience with this--- mind you this only becomes a topic of conversation when he is actively attempting to quit and going thru withdrawal symptoms.
Not much insight from me on this topic, but I am glad to know others wonder about this and/or have dealt with it before!
Recovery programs intentionally do not discuss MH issues as they are too vast to understand. My own experience is that my boys appeared to be happy, well-adjusted, normal young people until they had their first mind altering substance. There was nothing gradual about their 'change' - I knew from the beginning something was different.
They both have seen 25+ therapists and we've been to 10+ treatment centers. Many of these suggested they were dual diagnosis (MH & Substance Abuse). Until self-medicating stops AND willingness exists, it's an impossible, difficult journey for all involved. Mine have been diagnosed with depression, mood disorders, possible bi-polar, ADD and more - all of which may/may not be real. What I know is when they are substance free, they are as close to 'normal' as I am...
I am one who believes there should not be any diagnosis until they person is in a controlled environment and all substances are known. Rarely do folks just drink and each substance available has a different effect on the mind, body, soul...
Our opening at my meetings mentions discussions about mental health in the same line as cross-talk. It's not considered appropriate for our meetings.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Thanks for your replies. I have seen people who stop drinking and get prescriptions that they abuse. Many other people end up in jail. It is seems so hopeless sometimes. My A has been sober for a couple of months but he is not in any counseling and he does not seem interested in attending AA. His mood swings are still present and I have been turning my phone off for days at a time because I just don't want to deal with it. I have two phones so it is not really a problem. He lives in a different town than I do. It is a little creepy, I have to admit that the drinking is gone and the behavior is still there.
Iamhere, thanks for mentioning that it is considered cross-talk in meetings. I have known people that abuse drugs, and take whatever they can get their hands on. It can really have a bad effect on their thinking. We had a few young people in my town that got a hold of something prescribed for someone else and one of them committed suicide. It was very sad, and the police could not do anything. Your boys are very lucky to have you.
I am in agreement, mostly bc it's not our job to "fix" them, right? While I am new to Al-Anon I would agree that that sort of conversation would be inappropriate in a meeting. The meetings are for us. For me I save that for my counseling appointments. Not to dwell on it, but to work thru my feelings and move on bc there is more to my story than the alcoholism so when I reach those bridges I cross them in a safe place. I just find the topic intriguing for no other reason than to just ponder on it for a bit.
Hi pumpkin,
I agree that somethings should be discussed with professionals, and that we cannot fix someone. It is not our responsibility to see that the A in our life gets that kind of help. However, mental illness it is a fact about the disease that might be someone's deciding factor that this person or that person has other issues besides their addiction. Sometimes our weaknesses attract each other and that is something I have been guilty of in the past. Maybe that is because I am an adult child of an alcoholic, or a recovery addict. In order to make myself better I have to get away from the mental illnesses. Since I have broken up with my A three years ago I have been able to stop medications and do not suffer from depression myself anymore. Just like happiness is infectious so is sadness and negativity.
Guys I have been in Al-Anon 18 years & have dealt with bipolar depression all my life as alcoholism never really got to me but it got to most of the men within my stepfather's family as most of the alcoholic-addicts that are there have denied the illness like my stepfather did mine. It's never easy to walk into any room & constantly feel that your sanity is constantly being doubted by the alcoholic as he didn't like the fact that I was going to Al-Anon in the 1st place as I had already been in another program for a little over a year feeling but getting into Al-Anon service was what did the trick for me without my sponsor telling me to especially after not having been at an Al-Anon assembly in 4 years as that can be draining for anyone. Overall though I'm glad that I've stuck around because meetings will always be for me no matter the group & I will always be greatful to anyone that's walked through the doors of Al-Anon whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.
50Tradition,
Thanks for sharing, That is great you have gotten so much support in Alanon when other types of services seem to be dwindling. It is not always easy being the different one in the bunch when the other people are actively drinking or using. Thanks again!
Aloha Family and thanks for the shares and memories. The memories are from the past growing up in the program and learning the stuff I learned in college studying about substance abuse and alcoholism. So very glad I did that as it eased so much long terms anxiety about how my life was...mind, body, spirit and emotions. Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...it is not milk or kool aid. This is a cause and effect chemical and high in the class of depressants. It isn't organic to begin with however does affect the organisms it combines with. It is antiseptic, a cleaning fluid and will kill germs (lol) It almost killed me and I didn't even know what class of germ I was...maybe just a pest when I drank (lol).
When I was a therapist in a rehab I had among other things a requirement of my clients...get off and be off of mind and mood altering chemicals or don't attend sessions...that went for their family members also during family nights and one on ones. Alcohol alters perception.
Being off of mind and mood altering chemicals is good mental health. I know how mental health often takes the forefront in treatment process and still I don't compete for the sane outcomes...get the booze out and then we deal with the rest which quite often is much less than what was first claimed.
The definition of alcoholism I hold real today says that alcoholism is a disease of the mind, body, spirit and emotions which I have found to be true. I'm staying on that.
Great share my brother - I got a chuckle out of what class of germ you were.....too darn funny and I can relate!!! (((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I came across this thread while looking for threads related to mental health - I'm glad that the wisdom in this group is preserved and still available after 4 years.
It's good to know, but I wasn't aware that discussions about mental health in Al Anon meetings is inappropriate - I don't recall hearing anything about that in the meetings that I attend - I'll listen closer next time. I understand that alcohol \ substance issues are the primary focus here, but I am hoping that it is OK to ask questions here about how dealing with a loved one's mental issues relate to his alcohol \ substance issues - one thing (of many) that I like about this environment is that it's conversational - as opposed to Al Anon's sharing approach - both venues are great, but this type of environment here has been VERY helpful for me - and I hope I'm allowed to continue, as long as I don't go off the deep end and focus exclusively on MH issues - there are other forums for those discussions. Please let me know . .
-- Edited by texas yankee on Sunday 27th of June 2021 07:36:57 AM
OMG what a shock to see Bettys picture and post pop up. I was having deja vu. I miss her so much.
I think there is some confusion as to what is appropriate content for our board and even if other than CAL is acceptable. Im not sure who actually oversees MIP but maybe one of those folks could remind me/us of these issues. Of course I know the main goal is for family and friends to get help with the damage from alcoholism, but it seems there are lots of gray areas.
Seems to me that since it clearly says
"The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level" that talking about mental health issues is ok.
Or any other issues should be fine too.
I don't think anyone here would/should monitor topics discussed. We are all here to help and support one another and to share ESH. How would someone even decide what's ok and what's not ok here? I think it would be a matter of personal perception and not really something that should be done.
I would agree that certainly Miracles is a board that is not al anon. At one time the meetings were well attended. Now this is a support group
I am also glad to see Betty here. Her matter of fact delivery was so succinct
Ceetainly Betty brought much good to my life. She modelled patience restraint and diplomacy
I most certainly am not in the business of fixing anyone. However I do have to be out in the world. I currently have a supervisor who might certainly have a personality disorder. The boundaries of a supervisor relationship are hard My experience with boundaries is not proven
Therefore for me personally researching certain mental health topics is incredibly helpful I can understand other people who need scdifderebt set of boundaries.
In addition, without fail every practisimg alcoholic I have encountered had significant mental health issues. I.have gone beyond a place of wanting to cure anyone. I am now in a place where I want to help them I want to know how to emerge from dealing with them unscathed Self preservation is a good thing .
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Monday 28th of June 2021 08:27:56 AM
Something that is important and helpful to remember is what Alanon is here to do, and also what it is not...
In AlAnon, the focus is on ourselves, not the alcoholic. We are not tasked with diagnosing, attempting to determine what the 'problem' is with the alcoholic, what they 'should' do, or where they are wrong and need to change. Those things are all outside the scope of our abilities, knowledge, and ability to control.
We are not here to discuss the alcoholic or others, but what is going on with us: our thoughts, our reactions, our attempts to control and how that obsession has made our lives unmanageable, brought insanity to us. Most importantly, we discuss what parts of the program brought us strength and then hope that we can experience Serenity, regardless of what the alcoholic or others do.
It's not so much discussion of mental health in the alcoholic that is discouraged, but lengthy discussion on any topic that focuses on the alcoholic or others. We are not here for the alcoholic, but to learn how to change the things we can...our thoughts, perceptions and behavior.
Let it Begin With Me...
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Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
Thank you Enigmatic. This topic has driven me to distraction. I have been obsessing...writen volumes in my head why each mental health issue is unique to each individual and how my experience with my loved one has taught me that there is no one size fits all answer. I was brought to Al-Anon desperate for coping tools to deal with two independent illnesses that interact with each other. What I am slowly learning is that if I react, it won't change anything; it won't make people respect me; it won't magically change their minds. Sometimes it's just better to let things be, let people go, don't fight for closure; don't fight for explanations; don't chase answers; don't expect people to know where I'm coming from. I'm slowly learning that life is better lived when I don't centre it on what's happening around me and centre it on what's happening inside me. I work on myself and seek inner peace. Al-Anon provides tools to pursue that goal and gives me strength/courage to use outside help . Life has become more manageable and hope has been restored. I am grateful for my HP, MIP and Al-Anon for getting me back to me. Have a great day.
Excellent points, Enigmatic and Daffodils, and thanks for reminders about focusing on myself, NOT the alcoholic - maintaining an appropriate focus has been a constant battle for me - even though I fully acknowledge that I'm powerless in this situation. If I've strayed from the path with this thread, my apologies - unfortunately, for me, I'm just not ready to walk away from this situation - if I agree (if I'm asked) to pay for a MH treatment facility for my son, or a rehab facility, I don't see that as enabling - I see it as giving him a chance to get better - that's the way I have to look at it for me. I'm probably the worst poster child for Al Anon - I've always been a big fan of "Take what you like and leave the rest". I'll admit that I've never worked through the entire Al Anon menu - I've been more like a buffet kind of guy - but that's what seems to work best for me. A lot of my fellow Al Anon friends have worked through the steps in a more formal process, and I certainly respect how that works for them - but I think that when the enlightened founders of this program crafted the guiding principles that we all embrace, they were smart enough to keep things loose enough so as to attract more people, versus a more restrictive program that might have alienated some folks - as with reliance on an inclusive understanding of a HP, versus a requirement for a more specific acceptance of a "god".
Good Morning texas yankee. You have been a tremendous help to me. Again, these are two independent illnesses. The tools from Al-Anon overlap in living in the solution, however, the mental health piece has it's own challenges. Fortunately we have a treatment team-psychiatrist and therapist. I am part of the team and participate fully. Al-Anon refocuses me when I overstep my bounds. I admire your dedication to your son. I am learning to accept my loved one and work with him to apply treatment solutions that work for him and maintain his dignity. Take care. (HUGS)
For what it's worth, I think we should all do what we feel is best for us and not what the majority feels is right.
If you feel paying for rehab or MH treatment is best,then do that. Nobody else is walking in your shoes or know your situation better than you.
I don't think this is about being a poster child for Alanon. It's not a competition. It's not a cult where all rules must be adhered to. We are all doing our best and what we feel is best.
With that being said,I support you in whatever you choose .I have been in your shoes and have helped and although some might think it's enabling, I wouldn't turn my child away if they needed help for any other disease. This program says that alcoholism/addiction is a disease afterall so we all need to keep that in mind. And mental illness is a pretty huge issue and everyone deserves help.
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Monday 28th of June 2021 10:09:57 AM
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Monday 28th of June 2021 10:12:05 AM
"I have no.idea why anyone would dig up a post by a member who is no longer with us" - not at all trying to criticize anyone or provoke an argument, but if a departed member's post still has value, and shows wisdom, and ESH, what's the harm in referencing it?
And again, not at all trying to criticize anyone or provoke an argument, and maybe it's because I'm relatively new here, but I'm not at all understanding what you're referring to about a "#take down# of a board" - please enlighten me?
It is my belief that the sharing of Experience, Strength, and Hope are good things... things that shouldn't be discarded just because they are from the past or that the member is no longer posting content currently. I found this thread (both old and new portions) to be respectful of charged topic.
__________________
"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
but getting into Al-Anon service was what did the trick for me without my sponsor telling me to especially after not having been at an Al-Anon assembly in 4 years as that can be draining for anyone. Overall though I'm glad that I've stuck around because meetings will always be for me no matter the group & I will always be greatful to anyone that's walked through the doors of Al-Anon whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.
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