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New here. Feel like i was hit by a train by my alcolohlic ex. Been reading through alot about alcoholism, have learned more than i ever cared to know in the past. One question though. I read alot of posting stating that alcoloism is cunning and baffling? Why is that?
Welcome I found the following letter, it helped me to accept and understand how cunning and baffling this disease is :
This is an imagined letter from the disease of addiction to us addicts in recovery. It serves as a sharp reminder of the cunning, baffling and powerful nature of our disease, which wants to sabotage our recovery. If you are ever tempted to use drugs again, read this letter from addiction first!
Hi,
I think you will remember me, or have forgotten already.
Im the one who hates GOD, and that HIGHER POWER you believe in now.
Im the one that loathes those meetings and that program youre on,
To all of you that deal with me, you will suffer MENTALLY, PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY or perhaps you will DIE slowly if youre lucky.
Remember me now.
Im the disease of ADDICTION, the CUNNING, BAFFLING and POWERFUL one.
I have killed many of you; Ive made them suffer thats what I do.
And thats what I want from you.
I love catching you by surprise
I love pretending that I love you and Im your friend.
Ive given you lots of comfort havent I?
Wasnt I there for you when you where all alone.
When you wanted to DIE, BEING SICK when you where CRYING didnt you call me.
I was always there for you, WASNT I?
O, I love to see you TREMBLING in PAIN not knowing what to do.
I love to see you CRYING and SOBING.
Better still, I love to make you so NUMB you can neither HURT nor CRY.
When you cant feel anything at all, Im so happy and satisfied then.
All I ask is you SUFFER for a long time.
Ive always been there for you
When things went well you invited me in
When you said you didnt deserve it, I was the only one that agreed with you.
Together we had a great time DESTROYING all the good things you had in your LIFE.
Some people dont take me SERIOUSLY, I love them people.
HEART ATTACKS, DIABETES, LUNG CANCER, and LIVER CANCER these take me seriously.
I am such an EVIL, APPALLING, DIRTY DISEASE and yet I do not come uninvited.
You may choose me, as so many have and still do.
Please choose me over that HIGHER POWER, FAMILY and FRIENDS.
Dont let that GOD thing; PEACE And LOVE comes between us.
I hate all of you that do that 12 step program
I hate your GOD those PRAYERS and that HIGHER POWER.
All them dear FRIENDS that love and help you.
All these things weaken me.
I cant function properly, the worse thing is
I cant get close to you, to do my work.
For now I must lie here QUIETLY and PATIENTLY.
You wont see me but Im here.
So, until we meet again, if we meet again.
Next time it will be different worse, REAL PAIN and SUFFERING.
Alcoholism is thousands of years old and always works from altering reality. The "drunk" is about altered reality from slurred speech, to unsane thoughts and actions and wild unpredictable behaviors and we have been getting used to it for a long long time. Those of us who have lived with it constantly and gotten use to how it runs still have that other reality, the sanity as expectation however alcoholism replaces it and we try to live "as if". The alcoholic learns by habit how to move around the objections of others to their drinking and insanity and knows how to make promises and bargain our sanity, they HAVE TO drink cause if they don't the chemical will hurt them...bringing them to the need of anesthesia and among other things alcohol is anesthetic...it dulls and kills pain. The pain exists on all levels, mind, body, spirit and emotions so they have to drink. We have often heard the phrase that when a person is drunk they are "feeling no pain". It has been my experience as a drug and alcohol behavioral therapist that the awareness of the chemical and drinking starts from the very first drink and isn't that so cunning and baffling?
Thanks for all your replies. i just trying to understand some of the information that is distributed by AA an Alanon. That was one of the questions. I can see the generalization. But does know one else feel thatvas it was written in the 1930s, it could use some updating with moderern medical facts? Back in the dark ages we use to also bleed people and put leaches on them to cure them. No one ever tell someone who overeats that it is cunning or baffling. Yet for their addiction they cant seem to stop. Alot of addicts actually have some other inderlying metal issue that can not be seen until the substance is removed. And from the medical standpoint. The brain is altered by these chemicals, the others were never taught how to self sooth or cope. As a behavioral therapist would you not agree Jerry?
My understanding is that it is cunning and baffling because even though the alcoholic is suffering, they are powerless to stop. There was an AA speaker at the last Alanon meeting I went to. He lost everything--dream job, family, friends, his health, all his money and still he couldn't stop. Logically, most people would say this is hurting me. I don't enjoy being sick. But the disease has such a hold on the alcoholic in ways that make no sense to those of us who don't suffer from the disease. That's baffling. And yet the disease spreads to everyone involved with the alcoholic. Sure we may not be drinking to excess but we become just as sick. Now that to me is cunning.
Simple I've experience a lot dealing with other and then had my own experiences to back up the reality of what I was learning both in college and in the sessions at work with the alcoholic and the addict and their families and the others involved in the disease most of them/us by default or genetics. My relationship was genetics. I was born and raised within the disease and genetic predisposition was often discussed in the family sessions because we could watch it happen. My focus in college was that subject and altering. Alcoholism alters cell shape and thickness in the blood cell and alters brain behavior and perception. Alcoholism retards maturity growth and that is often discussed that the alcoholic is immature stopping mental and emotional growth at the time habitual drinking becomes heavy and constant. They don't process the steps in life as a non-alcoholic does at the same age. Their decision making skills and consequences often confuse and stun others who participate with them in their lives; family, friends, associates and others.
I am alcoholic and have been thru all of the stages of the disease even now live with residual affects which many other alcoholics still do. I have 37 years being alcohol free and in the program of recovery called AA; alcoholics anonymous. The steps, traditions, slogans, literature, meetings and reliance upon an entity much much greater than our egos and personalities help us to participate in our lives and the lives of other as if we were as normal as they are....yet we are not and for me will never be that normal. Normal for the alcoholic is alcoholism living within the mind and mood altering presence of alcohol. I am a receptor for the chemical and its reactions. I have to accept the requirements of being a drinking or non-drinking alcoholic and I choose the latter or else.
There is much much more to learn about the disease if you are going to find yourself living in it and with it and Al-Anon is a best lesson learning. I have found nothing as good as this program of recovery.
Keep coming back often. I am here to be of service and will support you and others in our MIP family...((((hugs))))
It's cunning and baffling to me. I am baffled when smart people repeatedly make choices that hurt them and their loved ones simply to get more of their substance. It's cunning bc those same smart people use their smarts and cunning to put pursuit and ingestion of their substance above everything else. They could use their smarts to live a healthy, reality-based life being loved by others and contributing to society, but instead they hurt others, hurt themselves, throw away love and material security and often wind up homeless, broke, in trouble with the law, and with broken hearts all around them. That's cunning and baffling in my book.
But why is it that the medical causes are never discussed. Like the gaba neurotransmitters in the brain. It is common for people with low Gaba to self soothe themelves with drugs and alcohol. And the bacteria that lives in ones gut gets out of balance and can effect not only the gaba receptors but also the cravings. The is so much more regarding the effects of how the brain can be traumatised and thusly these people are more likely to be addicted to alcohol and drugs Nothing seems to address this in any literature....its just handing it over to a higher power? I just am curiuos as to why more is not addressed. It really is not baffling or cunning when you look at the facts of modern knowledge. The only reason i ask is this is such a distructive life for all involved and i know so many look to AA. Why do they not update with medical facts that could help actually heal the mind and body...not just the spirit alone?
e i m the reason they act the way the do is because alcohol alters the part of the brain that enables judgement, consequences of actions and empathy.
-- Edited by simplelife on Wednesday 26th of October 2016 04:20:57 AM
-- Edited by simplelife on Wednesday 26th of October 2016 04:34:04 AM
-- Edited by simplelife on Wednesday 26th of October 2016 04:58:22 AM
Good question, I think it relates to the fact that those affected arent aware they are affected, the whole denial part of it. So an alcoholics mind tells them they dont have a problem with drink, so they might try drinking only lager, only at the weekends, only after food, etc this is the cunning bit of the disease. Its not like other diseases that can be diagnosed and taken as fact. Its a thinking disease so those affected have all sorts of stories in their heads telling them they arent affected. Cunning and baffling right enough.
I am grateful that AlAnon does not place the focus on the behavior, recovery, or labels of the alcoholic. As one of the slogans states: "I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it". AlAnon doesn't get caught up with discussions or arguments about the specific responsibility of nature or nurture in the problem drinker.
Instead, AlAnon directs the focus upon us, those who are bothered by the drinking in another. Our focus in the program is on addressing our own thoughts and behavior that have become unmanageable. Understanding the chemical bio-reactions behind the physiological and psychological symptoms does us no good if we are addressing them with unhealthy and counterproductive tactics.
Figuring out what is going on in others does not guarantee healthy thoughts and behavior in ourselves. In fact, it can be a symptom of dysfunction and inhibit our recovery. For some, the behavior of a drinking other is not baffling, nor is the disease cunning, but they may still be struggling to address them in a healthy, constructive way. AlAnon is for these individuals...
AlAnon has not brought me a better clinical understanding of the alcohol, but did not purport to offer it, and that is not the reason I sought it out. AlAnon showed its value in guiding me to understand my own shortcomings, and by working on these was better able to address the challenges I faced.
AlAnon is a tool, and as such is invaluable for what it is designed to do: recovery for those affected by drinking. It is not appropriate for all purposes, however, and in that category I would include "latest scientific work in the field of alcohol dependence"; there are many other sources for that material.
Success often depends on selecting the appropriate tool, and I am very grateful for the utility I have found in the program. These are simply my thoughts, take what you like and leave the rest
__________________
Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
Welcome to MIP simplelife - glad you found us and glad that you shared. As a double winner (Alcoholic & Al-Anon member), I could write a huge response but my experience suggests that would not be a good use of my time. I will share that those who desire more medical information about the affects of any mind/mood-altering substance can do their own research. There are many more reasons than we could ever list or brainstorm on why some choose to self-medicate and others do not. There are even recovery programs that focus differently than AA/Al-Anon, a couple I know of that focus on your questions...
What I know - the 12 Step program works when it's worked. The basic concepts suggest the disease is of the mind, body, heart and soul. Substances affect each person differently. Every single body that consumes reacts differently. The program is designed to help each of us find our way to a life that is happy, healthy and whole. We don't stand or sit in judgment of another on either side of the table. Instead we show up, share our own experience, strength and hope with each other. There are no guarantees in recovery or life and even armed with extensive medical knowledge about the dangers of choices don't change many.
I've seen some who arrive after one hospitalization (AA). I've seen some arrive after one legal incident (AA). I've seen some arrive on their own, just concerned because they have a drink each night. Lastly, I've seen some arrive who drink from sunrise to sunset and can not stop. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. The only requirement for membership is Al-Anon is a concern about a family member or friends' drinking.
Each person is encouraged to work the program to the best of their ability. Each person is allowed to grow, learn and mature at their own pace. 12 Step recovery is a spiritual journey, nothing more and nothing less. I am very grateful that it's designed exactly as it is and that all are welcome exactly as they come. Since we believe that no human power can relieve the grip of the disease, I don't see a need to do extensive research and/or focus on statistics and facts any longer.
I've seen miracles in recovery and I've seen death in recovery. I've seen folks celebrate 50+ years of continuous sobriety - One Day at a Time as well as those who return every day/two for a one day coin. There is no graduation or certificate for completion - it's a life-long journey.
Medical warnings rarely stop one from chosen/addictive behaviors. Millions smoke and we know the dangers. Diabetics still eat sugar in spite of warnings. Caffeine is considered dangerous by purists, yet many consume it. Wearing a seat-belt, not using cross-walks, etc. If knowledge was really power, we'd be perfect people instead of imperfect people. I prefer the latter as it gives me the desire to continue to learn, grow and change.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Just to be clear. I do think that AA and alanon are wonderful support places and help both sides with people who get whats its like. After reading through the post this was just one of those persistent questions i had. I get that they have to chose. But once they do woudnt both sides want to be knowelgeable? And this is something that helps those effected. It is keeping ourselves healthy. I know i was effected by aniexty and depression, feeling helpless when i was with my alcoholic. I was litterally sick and had to heal my own brain and gut. We are a the same. Our brains that is. If you had a loved one with diebetes wouldnt you want to know how to suport them to manage their disease?
I only ask this as i know alot of people do not have insurance tht attend these groups. Having this information would be benificial, in addition to the support that one receives. Even though we may not be addicts. , most of us are just as sick as the addicts.
Wouldn't both sides want to be knowledgeable? From my experiences...No. Why? and all of the other resistant questions and statements they and we can come up with including the ones in this post. Only some of us have had deeper desire too know and from that group only some have had the desire to continue on.
When I graduated from my college education on the subject I found myself standing on the front steps of the college and heard my HP's input, "You could remain in Al-Anon and get the answers you need"....really did happen and so I took my diploma, stayed in program and got hired (unintentionally) with a large In/Out rehab. The employment experience gave me much feed back on the three Cees of Al-Anon and my clients got to do their own work.
Some of if not all of my drive to know was caused by my enabling/co-dependent characteristics and I needed to take care of those first which I am still doing now.
My sponsor asked me a powerful question once when I was attempting to understand that which was confusing me..."why my alcoholic/addict acted and did what it was that she did, over and over and over." The question was..."What are you going to do with the information" (the answers to the question). I quit right there asking questions which for me would not be answered.
AA has a slogan I use daily, constantly. "I can't, God can, I'll let Him".
This also isnt about medical warnings. Yes people do not listen and all know of the damage. This is for those who are going to attempt sobriety. Even after refraining for drinking for years the bacteria that lives in their gut and effects their brain and adds to cravings will still be there. Its not about just eating healthy, salad is not good to at while you are healing you gut. Its a special list of food to eat that will healt the gut. And over time reintroduce food back in. Why wouldnt you want to share? It seems like most people here are not aware and just throw the whole thing up to their HP.
I truely believe this can help those of us effected by an addict too. I did it and after the first week my anietxy subsided. This is medical fact. Why wouldnt you want to know about this ?
Jerry, so take out the addicts from the equation. No one suffering from being with an addict would want to know? It seems like the health being involved with one is equally questionable. Our brains are equally sick. I get the asking why about the addicts. But the this is not about asking why. This is why wouldnt you. If you had cancer would you not want to know all information on how to heal?
Alanon is a spiritual program, however I do believe that the Medical Professionals, who run rehabs and detox units should be on the front line in awareness of this and recommend change in diet etc upon discharge. I know that they recommend AA and Alanon and encourage newly sober members to enjoy ice cream and sweets.
If you had a loved one with diebetes wouldnt you want to know how to suport them to manage their disease?
My husband DOES have diabetes and being the researcher I am, I read it all, studied it all and propounded it all. Guess what, he still has diabetes and I didn't cause it, cannot cure and I can't control it. Only he can make the changes needed to deal with his disease. All my research and propounding did was make me a little bit crazier, the same as dealing with the alcoholism. Yes it is good to gain knowledge if that is what helps you gain serenity, but mostly it is getting the focus on ourselves and our motives that bring us closer to the serenity we crave.
Just sayin'!!
__________________
Bethany
"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln
Yes but did your research help in making healthy meals? And like i said it is about you too. Not just the addict! Guess i was just trying to help and it seems like im just upsetting everyone. Its like if you are unemployed and do not actively apply for jobs, you just say im giving it to a higher power. Guess what you are not getting a job. The information was written so long ago and never updated. How is it only i see this? Addiction as i see it for both the addict and loved ones has been handled the same for years and guess what ? It still isnt working. You read through this board and all the stories of falling off the wagon. And the loved ones sick with aniexty again. Its because they have not healed their brain functions. And most rehabs are just detox unless you have great insurance. Its ike a bandaid.dextox send home. And the resone i brought it up is because AA and alanon are recommended. Why is everyone so afraid of change?
The body and brain are capible of amazing repair. But you must have the knowledge of how. So even if you dont want to help the addict and focus on yourself, wouldnt it be great to share this knowldge for yourself? At least share and if not than oh well. Like others have said take what you want. Why not share the options? Or is it better to stay physically sick? Because thats what happens in these relationships.
Understanding the latest science and medical discoveries about brain function with and without substance abuse is absolutely necessary for all of us to know. However, that knowledge explains a lot but doesn't offer us any relief from what is going on with individuals like me, who were caught up in the disease of alcoholism. I'm glad science is finally working on this problem, and what it knows now is much more advanced than what it was 30 years ago when I got sober. However, knowledge helps me understand but the programs of AA and Al-Anon are spiritual programs to help us live without our alcohol (AA) and our alcoholics (Al-Anon). Once we put the bottle of alcohol down our lives are miserable. Some of us do get help medically for conditions like bi-polar, and depressions, and some of us go to therapies for deep seated issues like child abuse and other tragedies in childhood. But what helps me on a day to day life, when the rubber meets the road, is good old spiritual recovery. Spiritual recovery will always be modern. Because the stuff of the spirit, like love, fellowship, kindness, truth, and compassion will always be in vogue, and always work.
Change is an inside job simplelife. All that you say, share, state makes logical sense. The challenge is this disease is not logical. I do not agree that all brains are the same. I do not agree that knowledge is power. I have what I need to be happy, healthy and whole while the three qualifiers that brought me to Al-Anon are doing their own thing. I support them best by minding my own business, attending to my needs and allowing them to do what they need to do to manage their own life(s).
You are applying an academic approach to a disease which presents differently in people. There is no one size fits all cure. I don't need to research about it to know what works for me. I've been sober 29 years and it's got nothing to do with the medical aspects of the disease. It has to do with hitting bottom, realizing that alcohol (and drugs) and I do not mix, and doing all that I need to each day to avoid that first drink/drug.
Feel free to research all you want/need to. You can even publish your findings if that helps you heal. We each heal in our own way using the program as designed the best way necessary for peace of mind. I have spent a lifetime doing research on how to support, cure, fix, change my qualifiers and it didn't change them one bit. It actually made them resent me for interrupting their life and their disease cycle. I actually contributed to a delayed bottom and accept that responsibility. Today, I am free to worry about me, my actions, reactions, my joy and my peace.
I strongly suggest going to Al-Anon. Understanding and experiencing the fellowship may better help you than detailed research. There is no need to change the program as designed - it works when we work it. You truly must understand that you are not the first person who has suggested there needs to be change in the program. You won't be the last either. Why would anyone want to change it when it already works?
There are a few who have come up with different recovery programs. Perhaps they have what you want in their structure. Please understand that you are not upsetting anyone - we don't give our power away to anyone that easily. We are trying to help you see the program as it is because that's what we do here - we share ESH for others to grow, learn and recover just as we are.
For your job analogy, certainly an unemployed worker who wants a job would apply. We take action to improve our lives - we do not try to influence the results. So, we would apply and then wait and see. Perhaps follow-up with a TY letter, or not. In the meanwhile, we'd apply for other jobs. With action, the right job will arrive. Certainly this does not happen without action.
As far as the diabetic scenario, I can only relate my experience. My husband has Cardiovascular Disease. He has had 2 heart attacks, 3 stents and a quadruple bypass. He's on a restricted diet including low sodium. I do most of the cooking, and certainly prepare meals that meet the suggested guidelines. However, I do not nor can not control what he decides to put into his body. We are retired, and he golfs every day. He goes through drive-through restaurants on the way to the course, and eats lunch there most days. I know he rarely considers the recommended diet. That's his choice and I accept it. I don't chastise him, nor do I even question him. It's his life to live, prolong, shorten or gamble with - as he sees fit. I do my part to support him. The unexpected outcome - I am healthier than ever before. He's still alive.
If you truly are passionate about wanting to suggest changes to the program as written, why not contact the CO for AA and Al-Anon. Perhaps they will listen to your suggestions and incorporate them in one way/another. AA & Al-Anon save lives - but you have to want it and work it to get it. Keep coming back!
-- Edited by Iamhere on Wednesday 26th of October 2016 03:09:48 PM
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
oh p.s. When I had cancer I did a lot of research into why and how, however, my oncologist told me that since I am not a doctor, and since cancer is many different forms, that whatever I read about cancer may not be true for me because the kind of cancer I had was specific. Luckily my oncologist was a research doctor and he tested the many kinds of chemicals I needed for my specific cancer. The fact that I know a lot about my cancer in particular was fascinating, but what got me through it personally was the love and compassion I got from the doctor, the nurses, my AA friends, my Alanon friends, and my co-workers. I also knew that I was going to be ok.
I don't think Al-anon precludes learning scientific knowledge about the disease. In my meetings, we read a list of "Do's and Don'ts", and one of the "Do's" is "Learn the facts about alcoholism." I did some reading about it in other literature, about the brain, the genetics, etc., and it helped me understand and gain some empathy for the alcoholic.
Al-Anon is specifically about healing the spiritual damage that we have suffered from living in the presence of the disease. So, for me, the phrase "Cunning, baffling, and powerful" doesn't negate the science, it expresses the damage that has been done, and that we should not assume it is easy to conquer -- it acknowledges the difficulty we have been through. I do agree that the knowledge is out there, and anyone in Al-Anon is free to pursue it and apply it for themselves. In Al-Anon we try not to give advice to others, because each person's situation is unique, and it is more empowering to find one's own solutions than to automatically take those offered by others. I found that scientific information when I was ready to receive it, and not before.
