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I am in desperate need of enlightenment from anyone who is willing to share. I married a beautiful man a little over 2 years ago. He is in AA and loves to help people. (Part of why I love him so much) He had been sober for 3 years when I met him and spent many hours a day on the phone with various sponsees. He shared early on about the controversy of sponsoring the opposite sex. I personally was not in favor of it myself. He shared that he sponsors women and feels that he is above being tempted or inappropriate in any way. I didnt say much to that and instead just chose to observe. He seemed to keep me as the focus of his life......however as time went on there were situations that I was uncomfortable with. He will often call a sponsee as we are heading out on a date or spending some time together. One particular sponsee seems to have quite a hold on him talking to him every single day. ...sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. ( this is a women sponsee) For awhile she or he would call every night before bed and talk for about a half hour. And then I would listen to my husband tell this woman...."I love you too" before he got off the phone. I finally put my foot down and asked him how he would feel if he had to hear me tell a man on the phone every night that I loved him before we went to bed? We got that straightened out but weird situations like that just keep happening. I finally discovered that he is also mentoring women that are not in AA. I told him I thought it was very inappropriate to spend time talking on the phone listening to womens personal problems. He agreed to just stick to the AA people....which he did not do. He spends a minimum of 2 hours a day talking to these people ( mostly women) and sometimes many more hours than that. In the beginning he would be alone with these women for hours working on the 5th step until I told him I just wasnt okay with that anymore. When we are having some kind of disagreement or difficulty with one another he will go call someone he sponsors to take his mind off of it. He never calls his own sponsor or solicits help of any kind. I get the feeling that he feels that he has all the answers. I have tried to talk to him a handful of times about not sponsoring women. When I bring up the subject he has a way of shutting me up quickly. When I described these happenings to my therapist ( which I kept from her for several months) she came unglued. ( of course there is so much I am leaving out here) But she helped me understand that these things were not okay. With her encouragement I decided to deal with it. The result has been a separation which is headed for a divorce. I love this man so very much. I want so badly to be able to help him/us/myself. I really feel he means well but it almost feels like he left one addiction for another. He could give me up ( even though he professes to love me more than life itself) but could not give up the women. I have given him all kinds of suggestions of how he can still be very helpful and also how he can still sponsor men. It is a resounding no! I have been degraded, humiliated, and made to feel like a second rate citizen in his life. One day when I was crying after seeing messages on his phone ( he was showing me his new phone) from a woman he mentors who is not in AA.....he said "oh baby....why do you torture yourself like this" You can get over this pain if you will just do some work. I know what work he is talking about. He is talking about the 12 steps. I am at such a loss.
-- Edited by gracekt on Tuesday 25th of October 2016 08:21:35 AM
Welcome Kayt I can so understand your concern and pain. Even if your partner feels he is above temptation, sponsoring same sex members is an important principle of AA and alanon recovery I am pleased that you voiced your concerns.
I would like to mentions that alcoholism is a progressive, chronic disease over which we are powerless. It manifests in the physical, emotional and spiritual aspects of the person addicted. AA address each of these after the drinking is stopped and it is a process that takes time nd effort.
Alanon is the recovery program for family members who have difficulty dealing with the insanity of the disease, even after the drinking has ended. Face to face meeting are held in most communities and the hot line number is in the white pages. I urge you to search them out. You will find the support,and understanding and tools you will need to continue to life your life with self esteem and courage.
Your partner may have made you feel degraded etc but looking at how you have handled the situation I think that you can put yourself at the top of your list of people to forgive! You voiced your concerns, you have had them validated by another person and, sadly, it is your husband's choice to ignore your needs in this situation. That speaks volumes in itself.
Al Anon can help you to understand how we become affected by the disease and I think that low self esteem was one of the symptoms of my experience.
I found that gifting myself treats was helpful, being as kind and generous with myself as I could be became important for me.
It does not seem to me to be very considerate for your husband to be blaming you for torturing yourself. My husband did that to me as well, and I brought into it for more years than I care to mention. I've come to think that it was a very effective way of keeping my attention on him - arragh!!! Anyway, the ultimate damage was that I learnt not to care much - which was destructive on my part and not a helpful solution for a happy marriage!!
The mantra I told myself was that it takes two to tango and if I was feeling degraded and still staying in that situation I needed to look at why that was. I have slowly started to learn to stand up for myself and honour my needs FIRST, regardless of what anyone else is doing.
Maybe I'm wrong (I'm still new to Al-Anon and have never been part of AA) but I thought it was an absolute NO-NO that anyone sponsor the opposite sex.
I hope you can find some peace in yourself. For what it's worth you are doing the right thing for yourself, peace of mind and sanity. What he is doing and has done is not right or acceptable.
I'm sorry you're going through this. You are not alone.
My ex BF (recovering alcoholic) was/is very much the same.
At first I didn't understand AA, so I didn't stick my nose in where it didn't belong. Over time though I became more aware, uncomfortable with it & asked him to stop. He wouldn't, he would use the guise of AA and "helping" just to stay connected with these girls. He slept with many of them. Some before he met me, but he stayed in contact for the validation. I told him how much it upset me. He told me he would stop talking to them, but he didn't. He just made sure I didn't know when he did. I kicked him out (one of many times) and he asked one of the girls he slept with - an "AA friend" - if he could stay with her.
Eventually his white knight mentality spilled over into his life outside of AA. He is almost 40. Decided to go back to school. There, he was acting as a "shoulder" to a few 18 year old girls. That came to a head when I found out he was taking the day off school to drive one of them to have an abortion. You can guess where this is going.
I'm not suggesting that your husband cheated, but there is something to be said about the "white knight" mentality. Seeking validation from the opposite sex who are either sick (alcoholics), young, or in trouble in some way, is a sign of a much deeper problem. Alcoholics often drink to suppress insecurity. Many who stop drinking have not entirely examined why they drank in the first place, possibly not honest with themselves during step 4. Although they are not drinking, they are still using a bandaid for their insecurities by seeking validation from others who they deem weaker. This can be a trait for some of us in Al Anon as well. Unless we are completely honest with ourselves and try to understand why we do the things we do, we will never fully recover.
Those who are committed to their recovery in AA, sponsor because they are committed to their program and sponsorship is a part of that. You should be just as willing to sponsor the smelly disheveled 60 year old man & keep yourself away from trouble.
I learned to trust my gut, and you should too. If you (his wife!) asked him to stop doing something because it is making you uncomfortable and it is causing friction between you, his program would tell him to take a good hard look at why he is doing what he is doing. If he is not looking at his action, that doesn't sound like a commitment to his AA program (and additionally, sponsoring).
Before I made my post on here I read through several of the posts. I am taken back at the things we are all going through and the strength that each of you have. Thank you for taking your time to share with people far and wide who are struggling. Thank you for those who have shared on my post. In all honesty I am praying for a miracle. The more I read I am realizing that the miracle will not be in my husband but will be in me and my ability to move forward in life..... happily.
This man I married is an incredible man. He has so much to offer life, himself and the people around him. He deeply cares about the suffering of others. He loves to give. I believe he has a bad case of grandiosity. Rules dont apply to him and he has the formula and answers to everything.
Sarah....like you, I did not know a lot about AA so I did not stick my nose in where I did not belong. But as time has moved forward I could not deny the nagging feeling inside my soul that told me that something was very off. I began to realize that while he sponsored many people, most of them were women. And most of the women were young and very pretty young ladies. The strange thing is that I really dont believe he was having affairs with any of them. I dont think that is what he is attracted to. I think the attraction is the power and the feeling of importance. He had recently come out of a cult like program he had been involved in for 15 years. I can tell that he is still somewhat programmed to some of those beliefs. (There is no right and wrong, he is a god, etc...) I think being a guru is very appealing to him. I have 8 children. Most now adults and he seemed to be very confused when my kids would come to me to get advice or just to have a long conversation about something that was bothering them. I believe it was hard for him that they were not coming to him. In his world he has created a scenario where most of the people he knows come to him for help. Constantly! They love and adore him and practically worship the ground he walks on. How could a person give that up? He sponsors his boss. What a rush for him.
We have a pretty cool life. We love our kids. We love music and theater and our whole family is involved in these things. We have had amazing experiences together this way. We live in a great community where there is much opportunity for service and involvement. We go to church together and have a great community there. But none of this comes anywhere close to the importance he feels being in charge of these people he sponsors. He tells me his motto in life is how can I best serve? He said he will never turn anyone away who asks for his help. I have tried to help him understand that we must use wisdom in all things. Sometimes when a person asks for help you can help them by directing them to resources where they can get the best help. In his mind God has brought them to him and he is the best help they could find. The God I know would never put sponsees before the success of a family and especially a marriage.
When I married him I had no idea this was a problem. I never thought I would be dealing with any kind of addiction other than the possibility of him drinking. Boy was I naive! I think he looks at every woman as a possible sponsee. I have heard him say many times. I could help her. ( referring to someone he barely knows) When we are in public together I have gotten to where I am uncomfortable being with him. He falls all over himself to help any woman who is around. That is actually what started to alert me that something was very off. It made me start to examine things more closely.
We have been separated for two months now. We both keep hoping the other one will give in and say....ok lets get back together. "I wont sponsor women" or "You can sponsor women"
To this day I cannot believe he would just toss me and our family away for the privileged of sponsoring women. I have talked to him about the idea that this is just another addiction. He said he doesn't care. He does not want to stop. I truly thought this was the absolute love of my life. We connected on levels that I only thought were possible but had never experienced. To say my heart is broken is an gross understatement. I have been tempted at times to give in and accept him back but I cannot deny that nagging feeling that tells me I do not dare.
Reading the posts on here has giving me so much clarification. They have helped me understand the things I am seeing. ( which so many I have not mentioned) I cannot even imagine what my life will be like without him. I dont want anyone else. But thus I can see that this is how it will be. I cannot fight this. I cannot convince or make him be something he does not want to be. I cannot compete with these women. I cannot make him feel as important as they do. I never was what I thought I was to him. Reality is a hard thing to face sometimes..............
Both sides of the program do suggest as guidelines that sponsorship should be same sex relationships. I've not encountered this personally so have no Experience, Strength or Hope in the matter. We have many meetings here for both sides of the table, so it is rare that one sponsors the other but I have seen it a time/two.
I am sorry that you are concerned and in pain over this. I can certainly understand why. Only he knows what his true motives are (pure or 13th Step). We currently (Al-Anon) have about 28 women and 3 men in our group. I am grateful that one of the men has long-term experience in recovery. One of the two newer guys tries to sit by me often and emails me (we have a list). He is married and he's never been inappropriate. However, it makes me feel uncomfortable. The program tells me when I am uncomfortable, I need to do some step work to determine the source. I do suspect it is 'me' - I have trust issues, and he tends to (unintentionally) lean in when speaking. I honestly don't hear his words as he's encroaching my space and that's what becomes my focus.
In my other program (AA), there is one man that 'hugs and holds'....many hug in the fellowship and he does this with women. I started making sure I was able to avoid him, as it made me uncomfortable. He did ask me about it, and I simply stated I would share with him when I was ready. I set a boundary.
I share just so you see that I do own my discomfort and find solutions that work for me. I do believe that participating in Al-Anon would give you a set of tools to make informed/logical decisions that work best for you. I found my own truth there and it's set me free from so many worries in my mind - justified or not!
Keep coming back - there is hope and help in recovery...(((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
(((Grace))) i don't have much to say but do want to say more power to you for listening to that nagging voice. that is not easy. the thoughts you share are insightful and i admire your courage at following your instinct. i'm working on re-arranging my habitual perceptions about my relationship in order to do the same. wishing you peace.
I was sponsored by a woman in Alanon- because there were no men in the group. Her hubby set up a sharing steps meeting and we studied the steps and tradition together, from the Alanon and AA green books.
There were no night time calls etc etc. My ex-sponsor is a widow now and I see her at church and we are still close.
In Alanon we give opinions and not advice. It is just possible that your hubby is on the level. Catching up on long delayed social needs. We all know the dangers of Step 13 as we call it. We in Alanon have no control of how people in AA operate.
The question I would ask is this- are you going to be able to pull away from this 'honeymoon period' of recovery with your pride and your marriage intact?
Practising detachment under these circumstances will be hard. Being trusting under these circumstances would be very hard- impossible if the trend continues...
...setting a course for our own lives is what Alanon is all about. Sharing out experience strength and hope. Taking time to share and to reach out... is precious... each one of us is precious- we have been through so much!
As a man in Alanon it can be quite disarming sometimes... I have spent so much time in the rooms... I am quite comfortable talking with women, at least inside of the rooms...
wishing you well... ... for your strength and your courage!
Aloha Grace and thank your for the honest courageous post and the trust that comes with it. Sad with you at the status of your relationship and I hope your relationship with your Higher Power rules the day.
I recognize your husbands personality and I use to participate with guidelines myself. There was nothing more soothing with me than to help another woman while my alcoholic/addict was out there making me feel less than and sad. Though I set rules with the gals I helped sponsor I had strict rules for myself cause I understood that there were other guys connected that would not like knowing I was being the big brother. I limited my sponsoring to the 4th step and not beyond and once the 4th step was done we were over except for the meetings we might attend. I was "hit on" by women who were wronged in the disease and also had them understand that was where I was coming from myself so I didn't act out. I am not addicted to sponsoring...I will help those who want to help themselves and show they will be doing the work other wise I've got other things and people in my life who like having me around.
Addicted to sponsoring? That might be a narcissist problem which a lot of Mr. Fixit's have. He might be "getting off" on being "the man" and if he is and has been doing it for a long time the way you have described it here, I say it will be very very hard for him to change almost like stopping drinking and/or drugs. The women may be giving him verification you have not or cannot give to him.
The suggestion of face to face Al-Anon meetings and learning from other women is best I think. (((((hugs)))))
The big red flag for me is that he spends more time calling his sponsees to talk out his problems rather than calling his sponsor. It sounds like he has become his own higher power. That is why we need to talk to our sponsors. He may not know it, but he might be hiding out with all women because he doesn't want to face himself and his male issues. He would rather talk to women because they aren't him. If he talked to his sponsor, his sponsor would know what he is actually doing and thinking and will call him on it.
Anyway, pray about it, and go to Al-Anon meetings. I think if this was my husband I would tell him to call his sponsor every time he thinks he needs to talk to a woman.
I just very recently suggested to my spouse to "take the leash off around my neck" because of her need to tug me in her direction, her way of thinking and doing and it of course erupted into a 9th on my part. That was just under a week ago and this afternoon she gave it a sharper yank while I was counseling (in my favor) with another friend who was concerned about my health. Sponsoring addiction? It depends on who is doing the description I think...making the excuse. I'm doing a lot of Letting go and Letting God. Maybe letting him build his own cage might be a better idea and let go of the control compulsion. Just my idea. (((hugs)))
Grace do you have a sponsor or a program friend that you can call and maybe go sit with to share recovery with. That works well for me especially when I loose direction and think I don't know what to do. That last time I did it, a week ago I was abided by with my HP and two other fellows in recovery. I didn't get fixed I got functional...give it a try ((((hugs))))
Dear Gracekt ~ I know it's very hard to believe when the pain is so unbearable - trust me I've been there. But also trust me when I tell you it will get better. It will take time and patience and lots of deep breaths - it will take you focusing on yourself and doing things each day that make you happy and feel good about yourself. Pray to your HP - remember everything happens for a reason. I'm keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. My heart feels for you and what you are going through.
Please search out alanon face to face meetings and attend. The new tools and support will help you to move in a positive, constructive manner as you break the isolation caused by interacting with this disease.
I havent gone to a meeting yet but I have sure been working hard on focusing on my future. For me this is a very difficult thing. It always has been. I have been praying a lot for faith and strength. I still have interaction with my husband. It is terribly difficult to be apart from him. If I go a day or so with out contacting him he just pours on the sweetness when we talk. I have looked up articles about men being addicted to the need for praise and the attention of women. He seems to fit like a glove in that phenomena.
Every few days it seems that he considers the idea of not sponsoring women. I get very hopeful and then by the next morning he is finished with the idea. its like clock work. But the prayer and drawing closer to God is really giving me strength. I do have bad days. He catches me off guard now and again but I am learning. I am learning from you and your experiences you are sharing. It doesnt matter that my husband isnt drinking right now. His behaviors are that of what many of you have described on many of these different posts on here. He has also taken the AA program and exploited its great principals. He has become a self appointed expert in sponsoring and tells everyone who will listen how great he is. Then he does this false modesty thing when some one compliments him. He was a professional actor at one time and he is good!
On the flip side I love him dearly .....for many reasons. He does have a gift. He helped me deal with a life time of pain when we first met. He spent hours and days with me to help me heal. Ironically I am now strong enough ( most of the time) to deal with his BS. He is surprised that I stand up to him. That I do not let him shut me down. I have studied enough about the alcoholic to know what I am looking at now. I used to just sit and listen to all his BS. All of his justifications for why he does things he does that he knows are not appropriate. No longer!
I call him on it. I make him be responsible for every thing he says.
I have a long ways to go. I really need to get some time and space between us. That is the hard part. The longest I have gone is about 36 hours. But I will conquer that too. When I think of all I have put up with him I just shake my head. I still pray for a miracle but at this point he doesnt even think he is doing something wrong. In fact it is quite the opposite. He is a savior, a god. He has a very strange perception of himself. Every once in awhile he lets out what he is really thinking of himself. He says that he doesnt even know the full extent of who he is and what he is here for. And in context he is referring to his greatness.
He one time made reference to the fact that I was the lucky one because I was the one he came home to at night. I know our minds can create grandiosity but this? Oh my!
Ok....I have gone 24 hours and counting. Lets see if I can go 48 hours not contacting him. Has anyone else had the problem of attachment? What did you do to help yourself?
Okay you use to have a habit of calling him and he had the habit of answering so not both of you are learning right? Good girl!! What did you do instead? Duplicate that. (((((hugs)))))
Thank you Jerry! It feels so good. I do have pangs of withdrawal every so often but the combination of reading the stories on this sight and staying close to God ( and keeping busy with my online business) it helping me get through it.
The closer I get to God.....the clearer the truth is. My husband says a lot of things that I just automatically believe. He loves me, he loves being married to me, Im the most important thing in his life, etc....... But his actions say something entirely different. His actions tell me he really doesn't want to be married. There are a lot of perks he likes about being married.....the biggest one being that I adore him to the moon and back. He loves the affection and constant love he gets from me. ( something hes been looking for all his life) but to actually act like a married man.....he is not so interested in and thinks its ridiculous.
For the longest time I figured it must be me and my perception of things. ( I always tend to do that) But as I learned more about the AA program and the alcoholic I began to see that my husband is deeply into another addiction.
Also I have begun to have compassion for him. I know these addictions help him escape his fears. I love him and wish so badly that I could take it all away from him. But I know I cannot. He is a precious soul. I pray for him every day and I pray that if there is something I CAN do for him that God will let me know. I still pray for the miracle that he will see the addiction and want to get help. But at this point there is no sign of that. So I keep moving my life forward with baby steps. I am starting to visualize my life with out him. ( so painful) But I am beginning to visualize good things for myself.
A friend of my challenged me several weeks ago to write a list about myself of things that I am good at. I started my list last night. I love it!!! It makes me feel good to write this list. I am so much more than I ever thought I was. Meaning I am stronger than I ever knew. Yes I fall apart now and again. And it is terrible when I do. But lately I've been picking myself up just a little bit faster than usual and it doesn't seem to have the lasting effects it used to.
I am so thankful for this group. Cant even put it into words.
-- Edited by gracekt on Friday 4th of November 2016 08:41:53 PM
... for your strength and your courage!
