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My mother is very adamant about her feelings regarding alcoholics. She hates them. Her father, her two brothers, and my father were all alcoholics. Her one brother has achieved sobriety of over 20 years. My father and her other brother died from the disease. Her father, my grandfather, was sober for 15 years before he died at the ripe old age of 96 from Congestive Heart Failure. Yet, she states, the effects of alcoholism do not bother her.
Yesterday she called me and asked if I was coming for her birthday. She lives about 6 hours away. Its not a landmark birthday, but turning 78 I suppose they are all starting to look like landmarks. Anyway, I told her unfortunately no, I cannot afford it at this time. My RAH is 25 days sober, still not able to work, just started physical therapy from his fractured leg in a drunken motorcycle accident. But she knows all this. I endured 25 minutes of a pure verbal and emotional beating as how I could be so stupid to marry another alcoholic. I should just leave him. Alcoholics do not care about anybody but themselves. She is not going to give me money for me to come to the birthday celebration (I did not ask) because my RAH would just drink it. On and On and On. By the time she was done, I wanted to crawl under a bus. Then the last zinger, the only reason why he married you is because he didn't want to hide it anymore. His trash can was full and it blew up all over you!
Now I don't want to go at all. She has called me twice since and I let it go to voicemail. I am now being accused of being immature and my feelings were just hurt.
Yes my feelings are hurt, who's wouldn't be? Now I wonder where I got my controlling behavior from?
I feel for your mother. Imagine knowing what she knows about this disease years of it and then her daughter her lovely daughter is right in the middle of it. IF my daughter ends up i this disease then i truly believe my program would be out the window and yeah i might just get controlling.
Shes full of fear she doesnt have a program and your the one thats hurt?. Think how she feels right now. DO you have a daughter? i do and i feel for your mother. This could be a chqnce for you to share a couple of your tools.
I can understand your hurt. I am sorry you are going through this. I hope that you have a good support system for yourself. Just know that your actions are only your own. You don't have to justify your marriage, or your feelings to anyone. The only one you need to be alright with is you. It is good to understand where others come from, your mom has a lot of trauma form alcoholism. But her opinions don't invalidate your needs or experience or your struggle coping with addiction.
I feel for your mother. Imagine knowing what she knows about this disease years of it and then her daughter her lovely daughter is right in the middle of it. IF my daughter ends up i this disease then i truly believe my program would be out the window and yeah i might just get controlling.
Shes full of fear she doesnt have a program and your the one thats hurt?. Think how she feels right now. DO you have a daughter? i do and i feel for your mother. This could be a chqnce for you to share a couple of your tools.
Yes I do have a daughter. Her father is an alcoholic. And her step father, my husband is an alcoholic. If she marries an alcoholic I would not judge her. If I had known that my husband was an alcoholic when I met him I do not know if things would be any different. I don't believe anything happens by chance. I could always turn it around and say maybe if my mother dealt with the effects of alcoholism on her, I wouldn't have married what I grew up with. But I don't feel that way. Its not her fault. But, its not mine either.
Rinn thank you I am a grown woman, I am married to an alcoholic, I wasn't looking for approval from my mother, I am old enough to make my own decisions. I love and respect my mother but I don't think I deserved to be attacked and made to feel horrible for missing one birthday.
My RAH and I were talking about his self esteem last night. How his opinion doesn't matter right now. How I didn't ask his opinion about my son. Im very proud to say I calmly said, you didn't ask my opinion about relapsing and going to the strip club on the motorcycle and wrecking it in the parking lot. Im trying to stay on my side of the street. My addicted son is not your concern, your concern is your own sobriety. Talking about self esteem? My husband was in the parking lot of a strip club and talking to one of the girls on his cell phone before he wrecked. I got verbally and emotionally attacked by my own mother. I think I got you beat in the low self esteem department!
The thing is the reality of the consequences of his disease has hit me full on. I am feeling lower than pond scum right now. I didn't need my mother to judge me and make me feel like she is disappointed in me. What alanon tool is there for that?
I'm so sorry your mother lit into you like that. Surely she knows that you have a full plate right now and could of shown you some empathy. Yes our children might make bad decisions during certain times of their lives - hell I'm 50 years old and I still make bad decisions (hence the reason I'm on this site - LOL) but a child, no matter how old they are, should always be able to hope for and count on some comfort and a listening ear from their parent. So I'm sorry she let you down. Mother and daughter relationship can be very complicated and can cut us to our core at times. I hope you are having a better day today.
What I would probably DO would make myriad snarky comments that involved pots and kettles and the like because I really have a low tolerance for people kicking me when I am down and my mother is a master at it.
But in terms of constructive tools (what I would like to think I would do), I guess would involve remembering that what others think of me is none of my business, and that absolutely includes my mother and my daughter (the 2 best button pushers I know, lol).
When my mother is being difficult and firing endless unhelpful shaming comments at me, I try to view it as a good chance to practice my tools; if I can shake off her best efforts I can shake off anyone's...and when I do manage to keep my serenity and not react, I feel really good, like I have achieved something.
There's this story I like about a farmer who sees his donkey has fallen down a deep hole and he decides that rather than waste time trying to get it out he will just bury it; each time he throws dirt on the donkey's back though, it shakes it off and uses the dirt to step up a little higher; eventually the farmer has thrown so much dirt onto the donkey that it climbs right out of the hole to safety. I like to visualise that when I feel like everyone is throwing their dirt at me- how can I use what they throw to actually benefit myself?
Helps me, anyway. Hugs to you. I hope you can find something nice to do for yourself today to remind yourself that you are worth it!!
(((Hugs))) fooled.....I am constantly reminded how powerless I am over people, places and things --- especially with family members. I usually have to walk through my feelings (hurt, anger, betrayal, etc.) and then I am always able to be grateful that I have a program and I have tools. It's just too bad others do not. My best survival tool with family is to remember always that how they are is about them, not me and the beloved QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally. I find great comfort in not reacting to the insanity of others as it really is about them and not about me.
Keep coming back - our program works so well when we work it as best we can!!!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Sorry didnt mean to offend you. its just one of our symptoms when we have been affected by alcoholism is self pity and i read a lot here about how mothers, who are usually elderly, have attacked or abused us in some way. ITs like we are looking for the victim card and our mothers provide us with what we need. Mothers usually dont have a program like we do, they often cant think differently after all those years and throw in the fact they have lived with alcoholism and been affected, hurt people hurt people as we are taught in alanon but where is the compassion for the mothers on this board. I dont see it, its all poor me and its all my mothers fault. WHat if this viewpoint or attitude is our disease which i have heard some say we have emotional immaturity. I can definately see this in myself, it maybe all comes down to emotiinal immaturity for me and the big give away for it is, lets blame my mother. I kniw, controversial, your all going to be up in arms but cant we have an honest discussion around it, can it be considered as a symptom?
First of all I don't blame my mother. Im a grown woman and I made the choice. So did she. Sure, I remember the anxiety and the curt reprimands she displayed when its getting close to dinner time and my father still wasn't home. He'd been gone all day with his drinking buddies. He would never disappoint either. I remember the silence at the breakfast table the next morning when my mother wasn't speaking to my father because of the shape he came home in. I grew up being anxious. Worrying that he was going to wreck and hurt somebody, praying that he came home just once on time, wanting so desperately to tell my father something about school, and knowing that I couldn't because I defied my mother and spoke to him she would be angry. Secondly, the controlling pattern she displayed to somehow control my father's drinking I began using when my Husband started to get sicker, as her mother did before her. I now know that is not the best way to handle it, the 3 c's. My mother and my grandmother did not have the benefit of Alanon when they were dealing with, back then it was like wearing the scarlet letter. I knew my family wasn't "normal" but I never knew what wasn't normal about my family until I started feeling the same anxiety when my Exah became sick. It started to become familiar. I do feel compassion for my mother that she endured what she did without the benefit of Alanon but like Jojo said what I needed was empathy rather than being judged. Had it been anybody else besides my mother I def would have been like MissM and mentioned about kettles and pots. Qtip as Iamhere suggested would work also for someone other than my mother. So, finally, if getting my feelings hurt by not getting what I needed from my mother, when she called me, asking me a question, makes me emotionally immature then so be it. A victim, how am I not a victim to this terrible awful disease. I grew up without a father because of the disease, my children have grown up without their father because of it, I had to raise them pretty much on my own as their father drank and used his pay rather than pay child support, I am facing my husbands consequences right along with him; no job, no income, medical bills, etc. I realize now how sick I became from clear back when it was my father being the manipulating compulsive liar so if that doesn't make me a victim I don't know what does. I choose not to wallow in self pity about it. It is what it is. My post was about my mother jumping at my neck about my husbands alcoholism and making me feel bad about myself. That I disappointed her and incapable of making any good decisions.
When it comes to conflict, I am a person who has to take a few days to process things in my head before I respond. I think in a few days I will text her and avoid the topic of alcoholism from now on. But, I have made the decision to not go to the celebration. That is what is best for me.
Further I choose to educate my children about the disease, not bury the topic and pretend it doesn't exist. If my daughter ends up marrying an alcoholic, I will be there for her saying I understand how you feel.
I thought this board was supposed to be non judgmental and ESH ? Maybe I need to stay off here for a while too.
El Cee, mothers are in such vulnerable positions. They are supposed to be nurturing, encouraging, understanding and above all, in their child's corner should problems arise. And usually most of them are. However surely there should be some balance, surely as their children age, they should see what a burden they are putting on aging shoulders and souls. Children want to come to their mothers and lay all their problems down- somehow that makes them feel better. Mothers are supposed to listen and understand and give strength.
But what about the mother? Now she has more worry, more concern but God help her if she gives advice. because then she is interfering and intruding on their lives.
78 may not be all that old in these days but she is facing her own mortality. Maybe she wants to know that, after all these years of bolstering up her child, she needs to know that she matters also.
First of all I don't blame my mother. Im a grown woman and I made the choice. So did she. Sure, I remember the anxiety and the curt reprimands she displayed when its getting close to dinner time and my father still wasn't home. He'd been gone all day with his drinking buddies. He would never disappoint either. I remember the silence at the breakfast table the next morning when my mother wasn't speaking to my father because of the shape he came home in. I grew up being anxious. Worrying that he was going to wreck and hurt somebody, praying that he came home just once on time, wanting so desperately to tell my father something about school, and knowing that I couldn't because I defied my mother and spoke to him she would be angry. Secondly, the controlling pattern she displayed to somehow control my father's drinking I began using when my Husband started to get sicker, as her mother did before her. I now know that is not the best way to handle it, the 3 c's. My mother and my grandmother did not have the benefit of Alanon when they were dealing with, back then it was like wearing the scarlet letter. I knew my family wasn't "normal" but I never knew what wasn't normal about my family until I started feeling the same anxiety when my Exah became sick. It started to become familiar. I do feel compassion for my mother that she endured what she did without the benefit of Alanon but like Jojo said what I needed was empathy rather than being judged. Had it been anybody else besides my mother I def would have been like MissM and mentioned about kettles and pots. Qtip as Iamhere suggested would work also for someone other than my mother. So, finally, if getting my feelings hurt by not getting what I needed from my mother, when she called me, asking me a question, makes me emotionally immature then so be it. A victim, how am I not a victim to this terrible awful disease. I grew up without a father because of the disease, my children have grown up without their father because of it, I had to raise them pretty much on my own as their father drank and used his pay rather than pay child support, I am facing my husbands consequences right along with him; no job, no income, medical bills, etc. I realize now how sick I became from clear back when it was my father being the manipulating compulsive liar so if that doesn't make me a victim I don't know what does. I choose not to wallow in self pity about it. It is what it is. My post was about my mother jumping at my neck about my husbands alcoholism and making me feel bad about myself. That I disappointed her and incapable of making any good decisions.
When it comes to conflict, I am a person who has to take a few days to process things in my head before I respond. I think in a few days I will text her and avoid the topic of alcoholism from now on. But, I have made the decision to not go to the celebration. That is what is best for me.
Further I choose to educate my children about the disease, not bury the topic and pretend it doesn't exist. If my daughter ends up marrying an alcoholic, I will be there for her saying I understand how you feel.
I thought this board was supposed to be non judgmental and ESH ? Maybe I need to stay off here for a while too.
Hello Fooled,
I can completely empathize with what you are feeling right now. Not only having to deal with your RAH, but the expenses, your emotions and the entire roller coaster. I remember (just days ago) feeling exactly what you are feeling right now......being judged. Feeling like a had to explain my actions instead of just being able to vent and hopefully getting some encouraging words (which I have received many). We're already at our lowest, who wants to be kicked at that point? I am not married to my ABF, but I have taken him back after his last binge (which I publicly posted). I also went into therapy. Not for him, but for myself. I need to find out about my triggers, why I feel the way I feel. I am in no way suggesting that to you, but I'm just mentioning how I'm dealing with it. It sounds like you have been through so much with little support, and taking care of your daughter. That is such a huge plate. I hope that you can find some ways to take care of you (even if it's just a walk), to try and decompress from all that you have been through. I know for me, it was just a struggle to watch TV.
On the plus side I'm glad to hear he's 25 days sober. It's a start. One day at a time.
Big HUG to you. I hope that you don't leave the site because you're not feeling supported. I hope you reach out when you need to vent. Feel free to message me anytime!
Hugs fooled,
I completely agree mother/daughter relationships can be fraught with tension, drama and fear for lack of better terms. The defensiveness I feel over my choices on how I handle my relationship with my mom are very raw.
I have only recently reopened a relationship with my mother. I only hope I can remember to keep my big fat mouth shut .. Lol. Let her blow off what she needs to and do my best not to take it personally. So much of my mom's knee jerk reactions are 100% fear. Her own projected fear. I swear it's crazy as all get out at times and now that she's getting older it's worse because her memory isn't what it used to be.
I can so empathize with issues of just trying to vent in the moment I'm not always open to what I should do or need to do .. Fill in the blank there .. Sponsors help and they are a special breed lol. Mine listened to the same story more that once with patience grace and dignity for me. Meetings, readings, self work help me move forward.
Keep coming back .. When you are ready as you heal the responses will be read differently or at least that's my experience. I'm about 99.9% sure someone else has been where you are at.
I have no idea where my relationship with my mom will go .. I prefer to keep her at arms length. It will probably stay that way for a long time. She's not going to change and for the moment I'm unwilling to take the risk.
Hugs s ;)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Fooled - just some of my experience - please take what you like and leave the rest....My mother is an ACoA. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that her father was never there emotionally as he was an alcoholic. He passed early - 63. My mother followed perfectly in his patterns - began drinking and became an A in her later life, most likely because of boredom/loneliness after we kids were grown/out. This is mostly when my grand-father also crossed from alcoholic drinking to full-blown disease.
I am the only girl. My mother has never been there for me as my friend's mothers were. I always assumed it was because of me - something I did, how I was, never enough, etc. She never talked with me only to me and only when she had to. Neither of my parents were touchy-feelie types so we did not grow up with hugs, and I Love You was not spoken in our family. That's just the way it was.
So...that is the background. It is what it is. I left at 17 as I just could not take it any longer and never felt I fit in. My brothers survived better than I and 2 of 3 are the same - limited to no emotion, rule with an iron fist, talk at their children instead of with, etc. The other has been married 3 times and is estranged from his only daughter. I went off the rails and then 'found myself' in recovery (other side, AA) early - age 26.
In recovery, I learned to forgive. I learned to focus on me. I learned to love unconditionally. I learned that my mother, in spite of her shortcomings, temper, poor communication, limited emotional maturity, etc. loved me the best she could. She still speaks negatively about my hair each time she sees me - I am 54; she is 82. She has something to say each time about my clothes, my home decor, etc. It's just who she is. She has no recovery and learned from others to point out what's wrong vs. looking for what's right. She is a negative person, and being with her used to affect me and bring me down.
I've grown a ton and she's not changed at all. The QTIP is possible, with practice, with anyone. I had to learn to love myself enough to stop giving others, even my mother, power over my attitudes, my heart, my soul and most of all - my self-esteem. I don't pity my mother - in her frame of mental reference, her life is good. Her definition of happiness is different than mine. I have learned in recovery that is perfectly fine and I don't have to change her, fix her, or wish her different. I just have to accept her.
I won't go into victimization, as I believe we all view the term differently and therefore apply it to our lives differently. What I will say is as I progressed in recovery, the way Al-Anon uses the term made sense for me, and I opted to stop giving my power away (the simplest definition of victim). My mother is passing away slowly from CHF. I am glad that the program gave me all the tools I needed to see the legacy of this disease in each level of my family tree and to try and be different and do different.
To an outsider looking in, my family would look the most dysfunctional of all - I have 2 children and they are both alcoholic/addicts. I choose to see things differently - I am the only one of my generation who found recovery from the affects of this disease. My children have their disease, but they are working on it and through it. They also are now survivors and know where they came from - the good, the bad and the ugly. They have no issue talking to me or with me about their deepest darkest secrets, actions, fears and dreams. I know this is not the case for my nieces and nephews as they tend to come to me to discuss their mistakes - fear of their own parents, my brothers. They also know I don't share so it's a safe place.
So - trust me when I say, I fully understand your pain and anger. I've been there and it was not a fun place to be. It is in recovery that I've been able to forgive, accept and let it go. I believe if I can get to the other side of our family's dysfunction surrounding this disease, others can too. We lived in a 'perfect home' with many, many secrets...so many that I have a great-uncle who was an alcoholic and committed suicide. I know this because my aunt told me before she passed. My father doesn't know I know, has never discussed it and I will not bring it up out of respect for his need to keep secrets.
There is a part of me that always hoped my mother and I would get close and become friends. It never happened as I had hoped, but I can be with her, be of service to her and give her the dignity and respect she deserves for giving me life. How she is - not her fault. She's a byproduct of this disease, doing the best she can without recovery. It must be a very hard place to be, but she's good with her style so I can adapt for my own sanity and peace of mind.
I don't flip QTIP out there like it's easy. I throw it out there because it's one of many tools that saved my life. (((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
El Cee, mothers are in such vulnerable positions. They are supposed to be nurturing, encouraging, understanding and above all, in their child's corner should problems arise. And usually most of them are. However surely there should be some balance, surely as their children age, they should see what a burden they are putting on aging shoulders and souls. Children want to come to their mothers and lay all their problems down- somehow that makes them feel better. Mothers are supposed to listen and understand and give strength.
But what about the mother? Now she has more worry, more concern but God help her if she gives advice. because then she is interfering and intruding on their lives.
78 may not be all that old in these days but she is facing her own mortality. Maybe she wants to know that, after all these years of bolstering up her child, she needs to know that she matters also.
My mother matters to me, how could you insinuate that she doesn't? She called me, she asked me a question to which I gave a response that turned into a tirade on her part. I understand that she worries about not just me, all her children and grand children. She has a husband the total opposite of what my father was. My point was that she didn't give me the dignity to make my own decision. Without passing Judgment! However she feels about my husband is her right. I should be able to decline because I cant afford it at this time without her projecting her feelings about alcoholics onto me. I love and support my own daughter but I will tell her if she is doing something I don't support with I love you and I understand but I cant support that decision.
pretending. I don't think its victim to identify someone as toxic. Even if it is your parent. Denying it can lead to being a doormat in my experience. Blame is equally destructive. Alanon it the way you would an alcoholic. We are all affected and ive found its the untreated alanonics who've damaged equally if not more in my own family. Glad im here.
Iamhere thank you for your insight. Growing up I didn't have the touchie feely hugs and I love yous either. I do believe my mother was just incapable of it at the time. I hold no resentment towards her for that. She is able to show her grandkids that and that is great. Like you said it is what it is. I ran away from home at 20. I ran far far away. I ran and didn't look back. I get that is why my sister and brothers have resentment towards me as I left them there holding the bag. I had to get out.
The problem here with my mother I guess is expectations. I never knew I disappointed her with my decisions and that was a big blow to me. I expected to have the same conversation we do every week and instead I didn't get the dignity to just say no I cant come. My mother is a very cynical and negative person. I accept that and I try very hard to keep our telephone calls light and skim over a lot of the no no subjects. I accommodate her. I adapt to her moods. I wasn't expecting this.
Thank you again for the victimization definition. I never put it that perspective. Perhaps in time I can use the Qtip towards her. I love her I respect her and it hurt me to hear all those things. I now know she is not going to be a support for me and I have to find a way to accept that.
(((Suzann))) - I believe recovery gives us much more gifts that we can even define or comprehend. I can't say that one thing I did helped me accept my momma as she is - I just kind of woke up and realized I felt different. It was a calm feeling and I can recall the past and all she's said and been over the years - it just doesn't have a hold on me any longer.
I also understand when there is a 'new exchange' and it's not at all the direction we hoped for...my mom is also kind and loving and much more touchy feely with my boys and grand-babies. Perhaps she's done some changing and that's why - dunno for sure.
I do know the first time I grabbed her and hugged her, it just about floored her. I also know the first time I said I love you she wasn't quite sure what to say or how to respond. Both of these come natural now....I guess we can teach others too as we learn!
Just for today, love you and trust that the program works and answers will come. Not sure how it works but it does!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Hey deacon thank you for taking the time to consider my point of view. I appreciate it. Fooled I wasn't judging you it sounds like your a really nice daughter. I just put myself in your mothers shoes thought of my own daughter and my own role as a mother. Alcoholism has been in my family like your mothers. My father my ex husband and my son seems to have issues. Your mother would be welcomed on this board if she shared from her perception. I just replied from another side. Oops naughty me. Lol. I do hope
Things are sorted out between you. For me I think of the deep love i have for my daughter. I always want good for her. My reaction to her choices aren't always popular or sensitive even but always 100 percent of the time my motive is love. A deep love. Have a good day and I wish you well x
-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 22nd of October 2016 03:45:04 AM
I applaud you coming here to share your truth: "it hurts."
...and I believe you!! Growing up in an alcoholic home, indeed we are victims of abuse physical, emotional and spiritual. And because mom is not in recovery, shes still abusing you, and "it hurts."
I applaud you for taking care of yourself with the appropriate boundaries you need for today. Doesn't mean it will always look like this, but just for today... for your sanity, it must. No worries about the future, God is going to take care of the future.
It never worked for me to FIRST try to understand mom.... feel sorry for mom... develop compassion for mom... forgive mom.... before I acknowledged me first. it's like putting the cart ahead of the horse. Mom is indeed suffering, but so are you.
First things first.
Step one gives me PERMISSION to finally feel all my feelings, to get honest. Before step one is denial... ignoring myself.... trying so hard to be what they kept telling me I "should" be before I was ready.... be recovered! be forgiving! be understanding! be a good girl! be nice!
It just didn't work. Not until I got honest first... acknowledging what happened... acknowledging the pain... feeling it all... and putting self-compassion... self-love.... first. Feeling God...... first (God is love)
LET IT BEGIN WITH ME. this was the beginning of real recovery for me.
To imply we were NOT victims causes more dis-ease in me because it's a lie. Denying the truth is going backwards.
I applaud what you are doing to take care of yourself to protect your serenity and if it includes hanging up on mom, do it. Often when my mom gets ugly with me on the phone I say, "oops... gotta run... call you later." I don't volunteer for abuse anymore, that is how I come out of victimhood. God uses my "tor-mentors" as mentors... Mom teaching me to realize my value and my worth.... she is the perfect teacher
Gods will for me is not allowing myself to be trampled on again and again. God gives me permission to say, "No."
Acceptance of myself right where I am, is always key to my recovery process. Trying to force solutions, does not work. Honesty takes real courage, I thank you for the inspiration!
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of October 2016 12:01:20 PM
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of October 2016 01:26:10 PM
2hp, i hope you dont mind me responding to your share, i know its for fooled and me both. im open to learning and if im giving a chance to look at something from another point of view and im thankful to my higher power that i have some humility that lets me see.
The idea of admitting i was a victim as an adult appauls me, i was stuck in that idea for years with my ex h. i honestly believed i was his victim and that left me feeling helpless, it also gave me a distorted view of him as being an all powerful monster and i was at the mercy of his moods, drinking, aggression, abuse etc. it wasnt until i was able to see him as sick and it all came from his disease that i was able to stop seeing myself as a victim and an equal sick person. this lifted me from my self pity.
I can see how your way of thinking and working it makes sense though and im wondering if acknowledging being a victim as a child is something im missing. children are victims of this disease, no doubt but do we get stuck in playing the child role even into adulthood? i had to accept my mother as a flawed and damaged human being before i could step out of the victim role. my mother was a vicitm of alcoholism, same as me.
For me, recovery began when i let go of my self pity fuelled by my engrained belief i was a victim and still am. freedom came from letting this go and rethinking my past including my childhood with the adults as flawed human beings rather than the idea that my mother should of, could of, being....... anything other than she was. she did the best with what she had.
I believe the rethinking of oneself away from victim and taking power back can only happen with healthy boundaries but these cant happen unless we give up the idea of us as victims. i had to put those who abused me in a more realistic place, flawed humans, sick humans. only that removed their power and allowed me to honour myself and put me first and thus not allow unacceptable behaviour.
THanks for your original post fooled, its helped me and i hope it has helped you too.x
"Let it begin with me".
I love what 2HP has shared here and especially the idea of using "tormentors" as my HP's Mentors. That's gold. (I've never heard that one before).
I am learning to have compassion for many people in my life, and my mother is one of them. I do wish she had a program, and I feel compassion for the fact that she doesn't. Sometimes she adopts my own program learnings and that feels awesome. One night she was detailing an argument with my stepfather over and over and I suggested to her that, hey mum, you don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. She seized on it and kept kept repeating it. "I don't have to attend every argument I am invited to. I don't have to attend every argument I am invited to. Melissa, that's Gold. I'm going to use that.
She keeps reminding me of it. I'm really glad it stuck.
But I also feel compassion for my guy, you know, the alcoholic. He has also learned some tools from me and my al-anon work. It doesn't mean I don't need to protect myself from him. I also need to protect myself from my mother and her negative coping tools, because they hurt me.
My job here is to learn to protect and foster my own serenity, and become the best version of myself that I can be.
I don't come to al-anon to learn to be the best mother, or the best daughter that i can be. I come to learn to be the best ME that I can be, and maybe the trickle down effect is, I am a better mother, daughter, partner, and so on.
When I learn to be kind to myself, I will become able to be kind to others. I hope.
In the mean time, the things my mother says and does can be so rude, mean and damaging and it's my job to stay in my own hula-hoop and not engage with it. It isn't my business to recover her. It's my job to identify damaging behaviours and take steps to protect myself from them, no matter who they come from. Even if it's my mother and even if she deserves compassion.
Fooled, my mother also often proclaims that "I won't give you money for that" when I haven't asked for money, and then she details the reasons she wont give the not-asked-for money. It drives me demented. It's very controlling and disempowering.
I've taken to calling her out on it and I've told her, point blank, mother, I won't discuss money with you because you seem to misunderstand and think i am asking for donations". After saying it enough times, she seems to understand and she's more or less stopped.
Anyway sorry for the novel, lol, and hugs.
You're doing a great job. Looking for a tool to use shows awesome recovery. Go you.
Interesting Elcee. For years and years and years my compassion and empathy to the victims of alcoholism who came before me in my familial line gave me the exact viewpoint you have now. That as an adult we are responsible for ourselves,no matter what came before. But now i see this was part of being raised with the elephant and i refuse to sit down in a room with that beast. Because i have choices now. Some people don't change and don't give a fig whether others have compassion for them or not as long as their own sick needs are met. partner relationships do not have an inbuilt power dynamic the way parent child relationships do. I think its a waste of energy pouring compassion on people who are out to destroy you from the inside out unless its compassion from a safe distance. Otherwise we are putting our hands up to be victimised again. Maybe not for everyone, but certainly things can get that sick for some.
Paradoxically though, i do think we are conditioned to expect as a right harsh judgement of our mothers which does no favours either. Ah balance. I continue to seek it.
I think your confusing compassion with sympathy. Im no mug. I dont understand whats going on and allow it because i understand it. i dont feel sorry for alcoholics, this too is setting myself up as different or better than. I see it as we are all in it together, all of us, the abusive fathers mothers, the drinkers non drinkers, we all suffer from this disease to different extents. this allows me compassion and thats been a gift, no more are there bad folk in my life that i fear. I just have humans some behaving badly. Compassion or acceptance and understanding isnt something i have given to anyone but me, its freed me from being a victim with bitterness and resentment. My compassion is about me for m, completely my gift.x
The bad behaviours of others arent for me to judge change reason with and i love that i can decide how much weight they truly hold. if its a sick persons harsh words then those words are about them coming from their own hurt. not my responsibility to change through reason or defending etc. my job is to give those words their true place and not take them inside me and become hurt, thats a choice and if im choosing to take the words of a sick person as truth then thats my sickness.x
Also a4l if you dont mind me asking, what alanon meetings and readings are you using? because for me its all about compassion and forgiveness, all of it.
sorry im going to rephrase this, it sounds pretty condescending, sorry. my interpretation of what ive learned in alanon is that its all about getting to compassion and forgiveness and away from blame and resentment. only then could i use boundaries with proper motives that are all about me.x
-- Edited by el-cee on Sunday 23rd of October 2016 07:14:54 AM
All I know is that as long as I held onto blame, shame and resentments in my heart, my growth was stifled. I had to do whatever possible to forgive and accept to move forward. I had to surrender my own will and desire for perfection to a power greater than myself, and focus on what I could control/change - me.
I spent countless years analyzing everything and everyone looking for a cause/effect relationship. Even when I could recall an event, situation or circumstance where I had been wronged, and assumed that to be the cause of my fear, resentment, defensiveness, etc. I did not have any tools to work through it. Years of self-help, counseling, analyzing and more did nothing for me spiritually as I did not accept my part or responsibility.
The program gave me exactly what I need to own my own stuff, and forgive others as necessary. Forgiveness has nothing to do with others; it's for me - I had to forgive or I would not move forward and grow. It doesn't mean I forget or that I accept unacceptable behaviors. It does give me insight to see others as they are - imperfect humans living in an imperfect world. I am grateful the program gave me the tools to accept others and me, forgive others and me and to grow spiritually and have compassion.
As a double-winner, I can share that alcoholics would give their life to be different. We don't choose to be sick nor do we choose to cause pain and suffering. We have a disease of the mind and no human power, including our own, can relieve us of the disease. We wake up each day with untreated alcoholism. We do the best we can with what we have and each day we are presented with different - events, challenges, blessings, people, etc. We feel the scrutiny in those around us who judge. We are powerless over people, places and things. The disease is stronger than anything else we've ever encountered and it's a daily choice to live or die.
As a member of al-anon, I also wake up each morning with an untreated disease. I must choose to treat my thinking disease or I will look outside myself for blame, shame, love and solutions. Again, no human power can relieve me of my distorted views/thinking. If I want peace of mind and serenity, I must work my program of recovery. I must do this each day, or I slip. I must create healthy boundaries and detach. Detaching with love is recommended to relieve the agony in our hearts. Our freedom comes from letting go and letting God. This applies to all people, places and things - not just those that are easy. For me, the golden rule applies from sun up to sun down. If I want to be treated with respect, I must do so in kind.
So, the only way I know how to have serenity is to forgive. The only way I know how to keep my serenity is to accept as is, let go and let God. The only way I know how to have real joy is to live one day at a time. The only way I know how to keep my joy is to let go of the past and stop dwelling on the future. Self-pity for me is the first ingredient in my recipe for relapse, and not a luxury I can risk. Loving myself, with all my flaws, allows me to love others and let them be who they need to be.
(((Hugs))) to all - grateful to be me, just for today!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Just a thought on mothers and mothering. I can remember being extremely harsh anytime my son mentioned his married girlfriend. He stopped me one day and said:" Mom you hurt my heart every time you say anything bad about her because I love her" That simple sentence stopped me and from then on I made sure to not react when her name was mentioned and to simply let it go. It was not my business!! Having compassion and empathy became my goal. Principles above personalities works .
One thing here that wasn't touched upon was boundaries. Fooled: My mom sounds similar to yours though not as blunt and direct. If something worries her, it's like it HAS to be shared and come out her mouth regardless of how it may be taken. Her compulsive worry (which is well intended pretty much) is greater than her insight or compassion. With my mom, I started cutting off the painful conversations and replying assertively.
This played out like "Well...I heard you mom and I get your point. I've got my own lessons to learn and I'm gonna be ok. Let's talk about... (introduce new topic)."
Also, my mom stopped being the one to give me the stamp of approval when I got deeper into recovery. My sponsor was better at seeing the work I was doing until I realized and truly felt that the judgment stamp was help by me and my HP and it said "you are good!" Now, my mom has the power to annoy me at worst but mostly, we communicate much better...she can't make me feel so bad. But...my mom didn't throw daggers as pointed as what you are describing. Hers were little pointed constant jabs and "reminders" and backhanded statements about me needing help with various things cuz I had shown I was "not good with...xyz." All the best as you learn, grow and get healthier within your program.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Sunday 23rd of October 2016 11:17:02 AM
I'm not at all bothered by anyone questioning me, we're all learning in recovery and my solutions may not be yours, or yours mine. that's okay, it's just my personal ESH regarding the concept of "victimhood."
In early recovery, they told me I was not a victim. I was told repeatedly, "victims do not recover." So I did a lot of stuffing because I wanted to "succeed" in recovery. It looked like I was supposed to act happy, like nothing was bothering me anymore. I could do that.
Always have.
When I found myself (quite by accident) in ACA-focused meetings, I realized that this message was perpetuating an old idea from childhood, Don't Talk Don't Trust, Don't Feel.... a manipulation used by my alcoholic parents to relieve themselves (of guilt... of earned guilt, I will add.) Despite the abuse, where are childen to go? We rely on parents for survivial and so we conditioned to go along with the denial that they are beating us, physically and emotionally.
It set me up to believe I DESERVE mistreatment. I went on to attract people who would mistreat me, I went on to choose an alcoholic addict for a husband. He, too demanded "Don't talk, Don't trust, Don't feel." Life became very confusing. They say that we lose ourselves in the disease but, I'm not sure I ever developed a "self" to lose. (which was no obstacle for higher power )
Recovery is a process.
The first step (for me, coming from an alcoholic and otherwise "dysfunctional" home) was about HONESTY, about coming out of the denial and admitting the TRUTH of what happened. Abuse is abuse, and I was a victim of abuse.
This was NOT a stopping point in recovery.
But a necessary step toward liberation. I had to RECOGNIZE the abuse before I could stop CHOOSING it over and over again... that is how I "volunteer." Admitting it was a necessary step toward self-responsibility.
Yes, in the beginning, I had to learn about detachment and boundaries to protect myself... and here I will add that to "Detach with Love" is an ideal, it is the ultimate goal. In the beginning, that concept of detaching with love was for ME... detach with love for me. I physically detached from them for a period of time... until I could get stronger in recovery. Seeing my family before I was ready was like throwing salt on my open wounds. Rushing in before I was ready.. was volunteering again. My recovery progressed in God's timing. Forcing myself before I was ready... did not work.
Our friend (((Fooled))) told us that "it hurts."
I believe her. it resonates with me, and I know it as a wonderful sign of PROGRESS in recovery.
Forgiveness and compassion and understanding and sympathy..... these qualities develop naturally as the result of working the twelve steps in proper order. Forcing solutions and "struggling" to perform them were not natural, nor did it have lasting effect with me.
My goal is to continue to trust the process... to always accept myself right where I'm at... because when I practice that, the difficulties melt away on their own, and weakness turns into strength, on its own.
-- Edited by 2HP on Sunday 23rd of October 2016 12:57:12 PM
-- Edited by 2HP on Sunday 23rd of October 2016 01:56:21 PM
I applaud you coming here to share your truth: "it hurts."
...and I believe you!! Growing up in an alcoholic home, indeed we are victims of abuse physical, emotional and spiritual. And because mom is not in recovery, shes still abusing you, and "it hurts."
I applaud you for taking care of yourself with the appropriate boundaries you need for today. Doesn't mean it will always look like this, but just for today... for your sanity, it must. No worries about the future, God is going to take care of the future.
It never worked for me to FIRST try to understand mom.... feel sorry for mom... develop compassion for mom... forgive mom.... before I acknowledged me first. it's like putting the cart ahead of the horse. Mom is indeed suffering, but so are you.
First things first.
Step one gives me PERMISSION to finally feel all my feelings, to get honest. Before step one is denial... ignoring myself.... trying so hard to be what they kept telling me I "should" be before I was ready.... be recovered! be forgiving! be understanding! be a good girl! be nice!
It just didn't work. Not until I got honest first... acknowledging what happened... acknowledging the pain... feeling it all... and putting self-compassion... self-love.... first. Feeling God...... first (God is love)
LET IT BEGIN WITH ME. this was the beginning of real recovery for me.
To imply we were NOT victims causes more dis-ease in me because it's a lie. Denying the truth is going backwards.
I applaud what you are doing to take care of yourself to protect your serenity and if it includes hanging up on mom, do it. Often when my mom gets ugly with me on the phone I say, "oops... gotta run... call you later." I don't volunteer for abuse anymore, that is how I come out of victimhood. God uses my "tor-mentors" as mentors... Mom teaching me to realize my value and my worth.... she is the perfect teacher
Gods will for me is not allowing myself to be trampled on again and again. God gives me permission to say, "No."
Acceptance of myself right where I am, is always key to my recovery process. Trying to force solutions, does not work. Honesty takes real courage, I thank you for the inspiration!
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of October 2016 12:01:20 PM
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of October 2016 01:26:10 PM
YES! This is what I have been trying to say and put in perspective and what got me defensive. Even though I have been here and there and back here and getting input from a few different sources, my church, family night at my RAH IOP, here and Alanon face to face meetings, I cant move forward until I acknowledge what happened and what was my role. For so long I wanted to block out the ugliness and not relive the bad stuff. I always felt forced to just forgive because that's what the scriptures and the teaching say we are to do. The fact is im still in progress. Things are allowed to hurt me. From the hurt comes healing. My mother and my grandmother are/were bitter resentful wives of alcoholics. I can still here my grandmother screaming at my grandfather "what will the neighbors think" As a child I had no power and that feeling followed me and even when I ran away from it the need for the "stamp of approval" was there. I still don't see it a self pity or playing the victim because I never really knew what was "wrong" with me. My mothers verbal outburst to me was an attack on my character. It hurt because I was grieving for my perceived "stamp of approval" I agree with pinkchip I have confidence that as I heal and grow I will be able to accept my mother as she is and be able to use Qtip and not let her take away my power. As an untreated alcoholic wife she is unable to be a support to me right now. I'm in the process of accepting that. I apologize for my defensiveness but the point I am at I just cannot look at things from my mothers point of view. I do feel bad that she had to live with all these negative feelings but I am a different person and I am just not there yet. If my daughter would end up marrying an alcoholic I would feel sad for her because I know the struggles she's in for. Hopefully having grown through the healing process I would not make her ever feel that she was wrong for loving an alcoholic.
Fooled you sound like your really on the right track. Im also a work in progress and im sorry if you felt i was judging you. Your doing better than me by listening to your own feelings and working through the past and allowing yourself to feel it. I find that hard. Its such an amazing journey with alanon and i got better every day by working it. I feel by coming here and sharing and your meetings you are well on the way to freedom from the pain. thanks again for sharing, its been a lesson for me too.x
Elcee i seem to have hit a nerve with your almighty brain an affliction we all come here with, so you know, no hard feelings. I can't explain myself any clearer than i already have and no part of my programme says doormat is part of service to others. Whether that person be friend, partner, child or parent. If you don't like that or understand that, its not my problem.
(((Fooled))) - I believe the best gift we get from the program is we each get to work our way through our journey. Each of us has a unique set of baggage we bring and each of us heals/deals at different rates when the time is right. We each find our journey using the tools and the steps with the goal of serenity. We often talk about Awareness, Acceptance, Action. You bringing forward the topic shows definite awareness and possibly some acceptance. I love that we each get to determine the action that works best for us.
I've seen it all - people removed for ever, for a while, not at all. Some find peace and harmony, others do not. There is no right way to heal/deal and there is no wrong way. Being willing to work on ourselves just gives us the insight to choices we often did not realize we had or could make!
It has been my own experience that family members best know how to push our buttons - that's where they were originally installed. Just keep doing what you're doing and focus on one day at a time. (((Hugs)))
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Thank you all for your input on the topic. 2HP thank you for finding the words for me. Ever since the incident happened I have been trying to figure out why it hurt so badly. Going through the posts I can see you took me right where I needed to go. The truth. Iamhere I became so frustrated because I couldn't hurdle step 3. I now know why I was guarded and truly couldn't trust in anyone, let alone a higher power. el-cee I accept your apology yes I did feel judged. Perhaps if you expanded your thought process in your responses it might help some, for me anyway. I had no idea where you going with your statement questioning my hurting other than seeing red.
At this point, I still have not acknowledged any call from my mother. But, I will. However, I think I need to let them detach from me for a little while. I would like the next time I see them all for me to be ME. Not an actor, pretending, feeling like I have to have the stamp of their approval. For so long I have played the game of lets pretend, dodging this bullet or that, I'm tired. Its as 2HP says "rubbing salt in the wound".....it really hurts.
The message in church today was about fear....Not to be afraid because my HP is my savior my light and my fortress. Acknowledging what happened and what I felt and why and not being afraid of those feelings I am confident I can recover. I am not done and my HP makes beautiful things.
