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I'm curious and would like you all's thoughts on the following bible verse - mainly the lines that state "it is not self-seeking" and "it always protects, always trusts". I'm trying to apply this verse to my feelings / thoughts of the relationship I had with the ex ABF but am struggling with those lines because to me the self-seeking line represents that love should not focus on me and what I think I need for myself in my life in regards to detaching from the A and focusing only on myself (which I will admit I am doing it but there are times I feel very selfish, cold-hearted and uncaring for taking this action. I'm also struggling with the lines "always protects, always trusts" because obviously protecting the alcoholic only enables them and there comes a point where they become completely untrustworthy. I would like clarification from others on this board for different interpretations that might help me see this verse in a different light - thank you
1 Corinthians 13:4-7New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evilbut rejoices with the truth.7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
-- Edited by jojo8466 on Wednesday 21st of September 2016 12:46:54 PM
To me the innate message would be to strive for that level of actualization with others but not at the cost of yourself. Love others as you love yourself...love ourselves first is what I think it means.
I love this verse, thanks for sharing. It talks about the perfect love God has for us. It is inspiration on how to truly love others.
This verse helps us be aware of our motivations for love and asks us to be mindful about our actions in the name of love.
Ideally all our relationships would be loving and edifying, but we know that is not always the case. We each have to choose which relationships we will maintain and give our attention. There are some people that are energy vampires and sometimes it is necessary to set new boundaries with them, or even live a life without them. (Proverbs 4:23 was convicting to me about who I allow in.)
It's ok to take time to focus on yourself, especially if you were unhappy in the relationship, and take time to heal. Don't feel guilty about taking care of yourself and working of developing your character, it will make your future relationships healthier and stronger.
I'm new to Al Anon, and I just read the pamphlet about Merry Go Round of Denial. I suggest you read it, and it might bring some clarity to your situation?
Hope this helps.
I was about to point out that alanon is a Spiritual Program and that our Tenth Tradition holds that:" we have NO Opinion on outside issues so that our name might never be drawn into public controversy. Thanks for pointing out that examining our motives is a powerful alanon tool.
My comfort level is low for discussing this verse here, but it's intent was never about our love of one another. It was rather a rebuttal to how an institution was misusing spiritual gifts. The full letter suggests that love is an action, not an emotion. It's what is experienced, seen and demonstrated.
While this verse is lovely and is used often at weddings and anniversaries, it's intent and modern attempt to align in with human love often leave us confused. There are many detailed explanations about this chapter and these verses on the web.
As Al-Anon is spiritual vs. religious, this gives me 'cause for pause' on going deeper.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Because my Higher Power is God and I believe that God is Love, I believe we are supposed to try to love as well as possible and these verses tell me what love is and how to love.
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
In the context of this verse, for me, the 'keep the focus on myself' advice is about what I need for love to grow in me. Love for myself and love for others.
Seeing the section 'love rejoices with the truth' helps me to understand and forgive myself about why it was sometimes difficult for me to feel love for my AH.
I think of my love as a river, it has a natural flow to it and, like water, it fills and fits into its surroundings, and sometimes, it simply has to flow around obstacles.
Thank you for bringing this up.
-- Edited by milkwood on Wednesday 21st of September 2016 01:23:31 AM
I'm guessing that one of the sticking points here is how to interpret the line about love "always trusts," when often we don't trust our alcoholics.
My first thought is that this is talking about a larger sphere than dealing with alcoholcs, and it would need a lot of exploring to know the context and the whole meaning. Al-Anon literature is written for people dealing with alcoholics; other things are written for larger situations, without a footnote that says "And if you are dealing with an alcoholic, apply this as follows..."
If we trusted everyone we loved to the same degree, we could easily tie ourselves in knots. If our alcoholic says, "I'm not drinking, I haven't drunk in a year, you are just paranoid!", we could decide to trust that. But then our mother, whom we also love, could say, "I'm afraid he's lying to you. I saw him at the restaurant having beers with a bunch of friends, and he was clearly drunk when he walked out." And then we should trust her too, right? But we can't trust both of those people that we love if they contradict each other.
But maybe it is about a bigger trust. Al-Anon urges us to put our trust in our HP. That's where the verse you cite and Al-Anon overlap. Maybe the trust is not "Believe this one sentence about what happened," but "Believe that things are unfolding as they should and that the support is there for us to find the right way."
I understand that Al-Anon and AA does not associate the organization with any specific religion. Each member is allowed to view and see their HP as how they see fit and how their HP works in their lives to help them.
My post is for applied to me and from my heart in regards to who I believe my HP is aka God. I was wanting suggestions and opinions from others who interpret their HP the same as I do as to how they feel and how they interpret this verse.
The posters who have a different view of who their HP is can just disregard this post - as the Al-Anon saying goes "take what you want and leave the rest".
I'm guessing that one of the sticking points here is how to interpret the line about love "always trusts," when often we don't trust our alcoholics.
My first thought is that this is talking about a larger sphere than dealing with alcoholcs, and it would need a lot of exploring to know the context and the whole meaning. Al-Anon literature is written for people dealing with alcoholics; other things are written for larger situations, without a footnote that says "And if you are dealing with an alcoholic, apply this as follows..."
If we trusted everyone we loved to the same degree, we could easily tie ourselves in knots. If our alcoholic says, "I'm not drinking, I haven't drunk in a year, you are just paranoid!", we could decide to trust that. But then our mother, whom we also love, could say, "I'm afraid he's lying to you. I saw him at the restaurant having beers with a bunch of friends, and he was clearly drunk when he walked out." And then we should trust her too, right? But we can't trust both of those people that we love if they contradict each other.
But maybe it is about a bigger trust. Al-Anon urges us to put our trust in our HP. That's where the verse you cite and Al-Anon overlap. Maybe the trust is not "Believe this one sentence about what happened," but "Believe that things are unfolding as they should and that the support is there for us to find the right way."
Wow that is a really good reply and has definitely given me something to think about!!! Thank you Mattie! I love the contradictory example you gave!
Because my Higher Power is God and I believe that God is Love, I believe we are supposed to try to love as well as possible and these verses tell me what love is and how to love.
And that is my interpretation of the verse also - that is why I'm struggling with parts of it. There have been some very enlightening answers to my question! For that I'm grateful!
In the context of this verse, for me, the 'keep the focus on myself' advice is about what I need for love to grow in me. Love for myself and love for others.
Seeing the section 'love rejoices with the truth' helps me to understand and forgive myself about why it was sometimes difficult for me to feel love for my AH.
I think of my love as a river, it has a natural flow to it and, like water, it fills and fits into its surroundings, and sometimes, it simply has to flow around obstacles.
Thank you for bringing this up.
-- Edited by milkwood on Wednesday 21st of September 2016 01:23:31 AM
I love your example of love being like a river and having to flow around obstacles! That is a beautiful image and interpretation of true love!
My comfort level is low for discussing this verse here, but it's intent was never about our love of one another. It was rather a rebuttal to how an institution was misusing spiritual gifts. The full letter suggests that love is an action, not an emotion. It's what is experienced, seen and demonstrated.
While this verse is lovely and is used often at weddings and anniversaries, it's intent and modern attempt to align in with human love often leave us confused. There are many detailed explanations about this chapter and these verses on the web.
As Al-Anon is spiritual vs. religious, this gives me 'cause for pause' on going deeper.
Thanks for your post. It's funny that you mention weddings because my daughter just got married a couple months ago and had this verse read by the priest at her wedding ceremony. LOL
I will do more research on it thanks to your explanation of the verse never being about our love for one another.
I love this verse, thanks for sharing. It talks about the perfect love God has for us. It is inspiration on how to truly love others. This verse helps us be aware of our motivations for love and asks us to be mindful about our actions in the name of love.
Ideally all our relationships would be loving and edifying, but we know that is not always the case. We each have to choose which relationships we will maintain and give our attention. There are some people that are energy vampires and sometimes it is necessary to set new boundaries with them, or even live a life without them. (Proverbs 4:23 was convicting to me about who I allow in.)
It's ok to take time to focus on yourself, especially if you were unhappy in the relationship, and take time to heal. Don't feel guilty about taking care of yourself and working of developing your character, it will make your future relationships healthier and stronger.
I'm new to Al Anon, and I just read the pamphlet about Merry Go Round of Denial. I suggest you read it, and it might bring some clarity to your situation? Hope this helps.
Thank you for the reference to Proverbs - I will read that chapter and verse. And thanks for the suggestion of the Merry Go Round of Denial. I will check it out.
I love this verse, thanks for sharing. It talks about the perfect love God has for us. It is inspiration on how to truly love others. This verse helps us be aware of our motivations for love and asks us to be mindful about our actions in the name of love.
Ideally all our relationships would be loving and edifying, but we know that is not always the case. We each have to choose which relationships we will maintain and give our attention. There are some people that are energy vampires and sometimes it is necessary to set new boundaries with them, or even live a life without them. (Proverbs 4:23 was convicting to me about who I allow in.)
It's ok to take time to focus on yourself, especially if you were unhappy in the relationship, and take time to heal. Don't feel guilty about taking care of yourself and working of developing your character, it will make your future relationships healthier and stronger.
I'm new to Al Anon, and I just read the pamphlet about Merry Go Round of Denial. I suggest you read it, and it might bring some clarity to your situation? Hope this helps.
I just read the Merry Go Round of Denial - very interesting. Glad I'm not one of the characters on that merry-go-round anymore. Now hopefully the other characters will jump off of it too!
I was thinking about this a little more as I drove my first bus of the day - we are told to take care of ourselves first, which includes loving ourselves and some say that we can't really love someone else without loving ourselves first. Going with that thought - if we love ourselves, we treat ourselves with all the things listed in those verses, we protect ourselves, trust ourselves, hope and persevere. We treat ourselves the way these verses tell us to do, and from that position of love, we are able to give love to others.
other thoughts:
Always trust - doesn't mean to trust blindly - I trust my ex AH to always tell me lies, I trust my powers of observation to tell me that some person is somebody I don't want to be to friendly with, so I can treat them with love but trust in myself to protect ME.
Be patient and Kind with myself, don't dishonor myself, don't hold grudges because of what holding them does to ME, rejoice in truth because it sets me free - this sounds like pretty good rules for how I should treat me! Me, well treated by me becomes a better me; a better me can figure out how to love others in the way that's possible without violating the rules of how I should treat myself.
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I was thinking about this a little more as I drove my first bus of the day - we are told to take care of ourselves first, which includes loving ourselves and some say that we can't really love someone else without loving ourselves first. Going with that thought - if we love ourselves, we treat ourselves with all the things listed in those verses, we protect ourselves, trust ourselves, hope and persevere. We treat ourselves the way these verses tell us to do, and from that position of love, we are able to give love to others.
other thoughts:
Always trust - doesn't mean to trust blindly - I trust my ex AH to always tell me lies, I trust my powers of observation to tell me that some person is somebody I don't want to be to friendly with, so I can treat them with love but trust in myself to protect ME.
Be patient and Kind with myself, don't dishonor myself, don't hold grudges because of what holding them does to ME, rejoice in truth because it sets me free - this sounds like pretty good rules for how I should treat me! Me, well treated by me becomes a better me; a better me can figure out how to love others in the way that's possible without violating the rules of how I should treat myself.
Excellent observation! We all need to treat ourselves as that verse speaks to us about what love is and hopefully if we can treat ourselves with that kind of love our love for others will fall into place. I love this concept!
We try not bring any specific religious beliefs here because alanon is not religious and the newcomer may be put off . I know I was for a long time because I thought alanon was religious. It's a spiritual program the title of your post and your specific reference to the bible may be all that needs to change to be in keeping with the principles of the program.
My sponsor told me in early recovery that I was to seek and find whatever was available to find my peace of mind and serenity. How gracious and grace giving they were. They didn't put limits on my healing and my HP wanted them in my life so that I could heal and survive. I still do that...I listen to everyone who has come thru this deadly disease we suffer from...I have no limits on my recovery.
Years ago when I was struggling with the subject of love associated with being married to an alcoholic/addict and constantly asking the "How" question as to love I went to a Thursday Night AFG meeting in Central Ca. In that meeting was an old timer I had never met before who took the time to share about how she came to understand and know and practice love within her relationship with her alcoholic, I followed her out to her car at the end of the meeting and asked her to tell me her definition of love. "I have found out"...she said, "That love is the complete and total ACCEPTANCE OF EVERY PERSON ...FOR EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE." She didn't even mention "alcoholic or my alcoholic or such". What impressed me was the "Every person" and from that I learned that love is a personal characteristic which I was supposed to carry within me on a daily basis if I wanted peace of mind and serenity on a daily basis. Practice, practice, practice.. ((((hugs))))
We try not bring any specific religious beliefs here because alanon is not religious and the newcomer may be put off . I know I was for a long time because I thought alanon was religious. It's a spiritual program the title of your post and your specific reference to the bible may be all that needs to change to be in keeping with the principles of the program.
My sponsor told me in early recovery that I was to seek and find whatever was available to find my peace of mind and serenity. How gracious and grace giving they were. They didn't put limits on my healing and my HP wanted them in my life so that I could heal and survive. I still do that...I listen to everyone who has come thru this deadly disease we suffer from...I have no limits on my recovery.
Years ago when I was struggling with the subject of love associated with being married to an alcoholic/addict and constantly asking the "How" question as to love I went to a Thursday Night AFG meeting in Central Ca. In that meeting was an old timer I had never met before who took the time to share about how she came to understand and know and practice love within her relationship with her alcoholic, I followed her out to her car at the end of the meeting and asked her to tell me her definition of love. "I have found out"...she said, "That love is the complete and total ACCEPTANCE OF EVERY PERSON ...FOR EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE." She didn't even mention "alcoholic or my alcoholic or such". What impressed me was the "Every person" and from that I learned that love is a personal characteristic which I was supposed to carry within me on a daily basis if I wanted peace of mind and serenity on a daily basis. Practice, practice, practice.. ((((hugs))))
Thanks for sharing! That is very good and very enlightening! She gave you a great definition that we can all learn from!
That love is a third force, and you will know it by its action. It may come through you but it doesn't belong to you even as it is of you. Trust in love itself which is divinely originated and sourced, remembering that it is outside you just as it runs through you. I guess this speaks to me in a way of surrender and the shortened version of steps one to three (in those times when) I can't, He (or she or it or however you permit yourself to conceive of an higher power) can; I'll let Him (et al). Then I'd probably follow that of with the st Francis prayer. Let me be an instrument of your.....
Its all love and its practical applications. Material matter having a limit, spirit being boundless. Thanks for the morning meditation.
Al-Anon told me to focus on conference-approved literature and it took me awhile to understand why, its because all the books and lovely verses I had been reading... though spiritual and certainly beautiful... did not address my specific problem of living with, and being affected by alcoholism. It caused me a great deal of confusion. Gratefully, Al-Anon is a spiritual program specific to alcoholism.
Step one is all about HONESTY.
Getting honest about my mind being so full of wounds and emotional poison was the first step of TRUTH for me.... necessary to begin my journey toward serenity. The steps work like a pickax at uncovering the truth. (To me, God is truth.)
My helpless wishes.... the wishing and wishing that I could just be spiritual and loving instead of so insane with it all..... only perpetuated my denial for years and years. Reminds me of the movie about Lois Wilsons story, When Love is Not Enough.
Today I trust my truth. I protect my truth. I persevere in my truth because it took me so long to get it. So on the topic of love... we have a perfect slogan, LET IT BEGIN WITH ME.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 12:59:14 AM
I also agree that a pick axe cuts through the proverbial ice of denial and addiction dysfunction. However I also love that the alanon programme is open to all persuasions and have personally found it to be a blueprint for spiritual living in a practical sense. Not all are conflicted by combining religious doctrine with the 12 steps, for some it may be how they work/reconcile/understand their programme. Provided no religion including that of the new age is used as a mask, the two need not be exclusive. That in my view becomes a type of restrictive doctrine in itself. MIP is not cal approved and there is a responsibly exercised freedom herein which appeals to many and has helped many. I hope it remains so.
Yep, this is an open forum and I am grateful it gives me the freedom to express that in the BEGINNING of recovery for me, it was best to focus on Al-Anon alone because the mixed messages coming from my childhood religion confused me. I meant to express what happened to me and what helped me. Recovery is a process and some things made more sense to me later. Al-Anon addressed my problem of being affected by alcoholism and gave me permission to put the oxygen mask on first.
Me four (or whatever I am) - I had baggage from FOO that was not manageable until/without Al-Anon recovery. I love that my spiritual program today is way larger than what I thought it could be based on my childhood teachings. I will say that after time in recovery and freedom from the bondage of the disease, I did become grateful for my upbringing - all aspects of it. Every single thing I experienced, learned, witnessed and explored from my past has made me who I am today - and I truly love me today!!
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
