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Hi everyone, and thanks for your advice. I have been dating my girlfriend for about 2 months and she was very open with me about struggles with alcohol, having gone to AA, asking if I might be interested in joining her at some point, mentioning that this group might be beneficial for me to understand more about what she's going through and people in my position might be going through. So we've been very open and I've been very supportive of her. Last night she sent me a message saying that I was going to be mad at her when we chatted at night and when I asked why she took a picture of a six pack of Mike's Hard lemonade with one of them missing. There was only one other time that this happened in the last 2 months where she called me crying apologizing to me for taking a drink and I asked her if there was more left and she said yes and she agreed to spill it out.
Last night when I asked her if she would spill out the remaining she said no she didn't have any intention to do that. Then when we talked on the phone, on a video chat, she wasn't remorseful at all for drinking, she was taking sips of her drink while we were talking, and she didn't understand why I cared, that it wasn't a big deal, that she just wanted to drink to relax, and that there wasn't anything I could do about it because this is just how it was going to be last night.
I was disappointed because this was the first time that I had seen her giving into it and the lack of remorse or some sort of feeling of being sad that this was happening. As I watched her take a few sips I thought to myself that maybe the best thing for me to do was to say that I wouldn't talk to her if she was going to be drinking on the phone while we were having a conversation. In turn, she hung up on me and while we did send a few text messages, that was really it after that.
I guess my question for you is do you have any recommendations for how to handle that sort of situation? When somebody who has done aa and knows that she has a problem and has worked towards becoming sober openly takes a drink in front of me thinking that that should be totally okay? Do I tell her that I don't like it, do I tell her that I won't talk to her if that's how she's going to act, do I mention how we've had conversations about how she's wanted me to support her and that I can't support her by watching her drinking and not saying anything about it?
Maybe, like me, you don't have any other experience of alcoholics in your life and I found it really useful to come here and read the posts of others to find out more about what I could expect as I struggled to live with my husband's alcoholism.
It is an amazingly powerful disease and one that I learnt that my husband had to deal with himself. I had absolutely no control over whether he drank or not. My job was to protect my sanity - it really had that much of an affect on me!
I learnt a whole lot about boundaries, something that I knew nothing about before. I suspect that you have just had an agreed boundary tested and that is not a very respectful thing to do, although sadly it goes with the territory in my experience. Boundaries are there to protect us as much as the alcoholic. I don't think it is ok for me to lecture my husband, he is an adult, but these day I do think that it is ok for me to simply say 'when you do/say. I feel uncomfortable/disrespected (or whatever feeling is appropriate to my circumstances) and much as I love you I need to remove myself from that kind of behaviour.'
It isn't easy living with an alcoholic and it is almost impossible to do it alone. Alanon is a fantastic organisation full of wisdom and I really recommend trying to get to face to face meetings if you can.
Welcome Operjay . Drawing boundaries to help ourselves is extremely important for our own sanity and mental health. Saying I will not talk with you when you are drinking is a great boundary for your own well being but will not control the outcome of the disease Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease over which we are powerless. It can be arrested but never cured.
That you G.F. attended AA for a time indicates that she believes she has a problem, now that she is now drinking once again is a symptom of a relapse in the disease.
We who live with this disease are powerless over it as we did not cause it, cannot control it and cannot cure it. Alanon face to face meetings are held in most communities and the hot line number is found in the white pages. It is here you will find the support you will need if you decide to continue this relationship.
welcome to Miracles In progress. To answer the original question posed, I don't know how you allow a person to drink or not. Our first step in Al Anon is that we admit that we are powerless over alcohol and that our lives have become unmanageable.
Therefore, as pointed out above, all you can do is say what you will do in response to the drinking, and then follow through. The follow through is very important. Your boundary has been tested, and when found to be weak, the boundary will continue to be tested.
Going to Al Anon meetings will help you to understand the boundaries you will need when dealing with these kinds of situations. They will also help you understand yourself so you can decide whether you even want to continue with the relationship or not.
Near the end of my marriage, when I realized I had no power or 'control' over whether my husband would drink or not, I created a boundary for myself that I would no longer sit with him on the patio and drink with him. If he wanted to sit and drink, that's fine, but I wanted to do more active things with my time, like go for a run or hike. So that is what I would do. I would sit on the patio with him in mornings with coffee, read the paper together etc. but I stopped dirnking with him.
Boundaries are for 'me'. They are not to 'punish' the other person. Boundaries are a way of protecting our own 'sanity' and well being. I have a best girlfriend who is basically my sister. I know that if she calls me after 6pm on a Thursday evening, she is likely half way through a bottle of wine, and has something she needs to 'unload', and when she is intoxicated, she is beligerent and kind of not fun to listen to. So, my boundary for myself is that I have a choice as to whether I am in the right 'frame of mind' to handle a drunken conversation from her - usually I just let the call go to voicemail. I can't 'allow' or 'not allow' her to drink 'in front of me'. But I can choose whether *I* want to talk to her while she drinks. She doesn't 'know' my boundary - because it's for me, not her. I never have said to her 'I will not talk to you when you are drunk like this'. I just choose to not answer the phone. If I am at her home for an evening, if she gets to a certain point of intoxication, I politely do a 'oh look at the time, gotta go!' and I leave before I have to witness an escalation of craziness. Again, MY boundary - and no need to make a dramatic statement to anyone because it is not ABOUT her, it's about ME, and taking care of myself.
Hugs,
Cyndi
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"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
This "small" (not really so small) issue is really part of a bigger issue. Which is that she has decided that she's going to drink again. That will be a problem for her down the line, but the only part that bears on you is that it will be a problem for you both now and down the line. She is testing to see if she can have her drink and you too. My experience is that alcoholics are always testing to see who will stick around for their drunken lifestyle. I don't mean they get up in the morning thinking, "Who can I impose my chaos on today?" But beneath the surface, that is what is being tested. "Do I have a codependent person here who will try to 'help' me and therefore put up with my chaos and manipulations? Do I have someone who declares he 'won't give up on me' and therefore will put up with my chaos and manipulations?" Etc.
I'm sorry to say that most alcoholics never get to longterm sobriety, and those that do, do so on their own timeline and not on ours. So with alcoholics, "What you see is what you get." Actually they start off slow and then the alcoholism is progressive, so "What you see is a fraction of what you will get down the line." But it doesn't get better on its own.
It sounds as if her sobriety was not very well-established? You said she "was" going to AA - is she still going, and how long did she have in sobriety? In the first year of sobriety, people are advised not to get involved in new relationships. So if her sobriety was new and she has been dating, that is another thing that suggests she was not fully committed to the program.
Two months of dating is not much. I think if you asked any of us here, "Knowing what you know now about alcoholism, what do you wish you had done, two months in?", the answer would be, "Walk away. Reduce it to a friendship. Know that this person is not available for a healthy relationship."
I hope you will read through the threads on this site, learn more about alcoholism, find a good meeting, read the literature, and take good care of yourself.
I really like your reply Cyndi, and it resonated with me. I agree, I don't think there needs to be a big statement about what you will and not allow in ALL cases. Just removing yourself, not answering the phone, sitting on the deck during certain times, etc. sounds very healthy.
I also have had to set a boundary with my AH....once with words and now I stick with it.....definitely for me!
Yes, Mattie.....I think if we all knew then what we know now.....we would have walked away after 2 months. I think we are all in denial in the beginning, or think our situation will be different. We love them, but I don't think I would have chose the commitment had there been a crystal ball. However, it is leading to my OWN recovery.....so it was meant to be.
Operjay welcome to the board and bravo on the courage to step forward while the disease of alcoholism is taking your sanity and serenity away. There are no rational responses to an inebriated person and inebriated doesn't me "wet" Alcoholics practice insanity so you can be facing the same problems when she isn't drinking and it seem that is what you are going thru now.
Your girlfriend isn't and hasn't been sober. There may have been a time or two where she didn't drinking however when you education yourself about the dis-ease of alcoholism you will find that this is a dis-ease of the mind body spirit and emotions which have to be treated all levels at all times. For me I believe that this is the mother of all diseases and it is fatal too not only for the drinker and for non-drinkers also.
The suggestion regarding the first 5 words of the 1st Step "We admitted we were powerless," is the best first Experience, Strength and Hope you are going to get. Recovering Alcoholics in the AA program and recovering enablers in the Al-Anon program know and practice this step on a daily basis and so mostly you will not get a solid piece of information regarding allowing or not allowing anyone to drinking in front of you or not. They will drink....period.
If their drinking bothers you why would you allow it around you? When I was done...I was done and walked away from my alcoholic/addict wife. AA doesn't give guarantees that "once stopped...always stopped" Alcoholism isn't a moral issue...lt isn't about "being bad". No matter how anyone can attempt to judge an alcoholic it will not work to get and keep them sober and most often will make the situation worse.
You can or cannot allow drinking in or around you that is your choice that is "your part" in your disease. I stopped allowing it so my alcoholic/addict had to be away from me period. Even after she got clean and sober I kept the distance with love. Do not give the alcoholic a mixed message cause they will certainly drink.
Thanks for sharing here. The best recommendation anyone gave me was to attend Alanon. The program will help you find answers that are right for you. It is disappointing when a loved on relapses and begins drinking again. The most important teaching of the Alanon program is to focus on ourselves. With that said, you'll do what's within your own comfort zone as far as communicating with her when she is drinking. Withholding attention never got anybody to stop drinking. Loving someone a thousand percent never did either. I would gently suggest that you honor how YOU feel and continue to do that. If you aren't sure, attending in person alanon meetings can help with sorting out your feelings.
It's difficult to know your gf's motivation (if any) concerning what she said to you about her drinking. Sometimes Alcoholics even have trouble remembering what they said while drinking when they sober up. Sometimes what's being said is nonsense. One thing you do know is that she's already connected to AA and its up to her whether she wants to go back.
I hope you'll join us here and become a part of our online Alanon family. There's a lot of experience, strength and hope shared here. Welcome! TT
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Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
So spot on mattie. Based on MUCH heartache and years of personal experience, I KNOW I can't help anyone get sober in a dating relationship. That is a recipe for disaster. Basically you have an alcoholic advertising to you they want you to love them and their disease too. Active alcoholics look for people who do not heed red flags. Is it worth the drama to date someone advertising loud and clear they have major issues and are just choosing to not deal with them? Maybe it is for you. Not my call. What would you need to see for it to become something intolerable for you? What are your boundaries here? Do you need to see first hamd the sloppy mess that led her to go to AA in the first place? If so would seeing that make you run the other way or want to "help" or change her more? Think about it. Alanon also has the answers for you.
Wow, Mark, those are powerful questions. I so wish I had encountered them way back when, when I first met my Alcoholic. I was so proud that here was a person with a little problem (as I saw and understood it) and I was going to help them! I feel so sad for that person that I was.
-- Edited by Mattie on Tuesday 24th of May 2016 06:06:15 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I think the best thing I did was set a boundary that I was uncomfortable talking to her while she so casually was having a drink.
I guess the question I have is...does someone suffering not deserve to be loved or to have a relationship? This is new for me...there's so much great with an occasional hiccup that we talk about and work on. She was the one who recommended I seek out al-anon. so I appreciate that she wants me to know what I'm 'getting into'. Thanks again!
I'll definitely attend a meeting!
So what I took from your question was should you allow a recovering alcoholic to drink in front of you. While you can't make a rule that says, "you can't drink."
You can make a healthy boundary that says, I don't want you to drink in front of me. If you do I will remove myself from the situation. You don't have to be mean about it or use it to cause a fight. It can be simple. I love you. I don't want to see you drink. While I can't change your actions, I can control my actions of staying while you do. I will see you another time, and leave.
(those are just my word, not a magic formula. Alanon resources have some great readings on boundaries for yourself and if you have questions your sponsor can help you talk about how to remove your self from a situation to create your own boundary.)
-- Edited by Rinn on Tuesday 24th of May 2016 09:12:29 PM
Your other question does someone suffering deserved to be loved or have a relationship?
When I hear that I think of something my addict would have said to make me feel guilty.. It just seems like this statement is kind of a loaded question. (I apologize if I am reading too much into it)
Everyone can be loved and be in a relationship. No one *deserves* to be in a relationship, or *deserves* love just by being or by being miserable. People receive love and relationships because they are loving and care about the person they are with. When someone is relapsing or hurting with their addiction, the people who love them are probably going to continue to love them even if they can't always be there to pick their loved one up. ( it is good to let people experience their own consequence) People struggling with an addiction rarely see it that way at first. You have to work your program and know when and how to draw boundaries. Just know that you are still loving the person when making a boundary. Your just loving yourself too and that is OK!
You asked, "does someone suffering deserve to be loved or have a relationship?" When I say yes, what I mean is that you deserve a loving relationship, a relationship in which the other person is there for you as much as you are there for them. Sadly, an alcoholic is not capable of that relationship. I have heard it compared to being married to someone who is having an affair and is always sneaking off to be with their affair partner. They are not there for us because their primary relationship is with alcohol. I am sure the people here can provide a thousand examples of the forms this takes. Lying, hiding, denial, being drunk when they've promised not to, not being fully available emotionally because they are numbed out with alcohol, becoming the kind of person who can't be in public easily because they behave inappropriately, saying something one day and forgetting it the next day, failing to show up for things because they were drunk or passed out, acting out sexually because the alcohol has knocked out their self-control... that's only a small list for starters. We all deserve better than that.
As for taking pity on those under the spell of alcohol, or "helping" them - it is maybe like diabetes. No one would blame someone for having diabetes. But if they refused to take their insulin and kept driving and passing out because of it, and hurting people and damaging things - that would be destructive decision-making. Active alcoholics are like the people who have diabetes and drive and pass out because they won't take their insulin. You can't blame them for the underlying condition, but it is their own bad choice to refuse to manage it. Furthermore, when we behave as if their decision isn't destructive and doesn't have consequences, we aid them in their denial. So "helping" them by sticking around and making excuses and softening their fall serves just to prolong their denial and destruction.
I hope you'll find a meeting and learn everything you can about this terrible disease and how people have regained strength and hope in the face of it. Please take good care of yourself.
Using drinking and sober in the same sentence is an oxymoron. A sober person/alcoholic will not/does not drink. To them to drink would mean to die among other things. If we sit and watch we are enabling which is our part of the disease of alcoholism...We enable it to happen which is as insidiously insane and the drinker drinking.. Get Al-Anon literature and go after the information on enabling and co-dependency. Keep your eyes on yourself and do your own recovery.
The nature of the suffering dictates the expression of love. Too often as partners we become caretakers because alcoholism is selfish always without exception, and irresponsibility is another hallmark. Someone has to take care of things and the alcoholic as they degenerate either can't or won't. We do it because we think we love or because we are entangled but it can't be love if its a form of oppression. The oppression of consequences from which we learn, oppresion of participation in life because someone else is taking care of all the practicalities for someone else willingly at first but eventually resentfully. I recommend some alanon literature, the merry go round called denial, its really good and you can google it. So if its not love, that leaves entanglement, could be a myriad of things, children, finances, and always something internal. I mean to be in a relationship, each person has to turn up. And an alcoholic, me being one and married to one and born of two, an alcoholic is either chasing the buzz or dancing with addiction or working recovery. The first two really don't leave any room for a second person and the third is something which works only if you work it. Keep coming back.
Thanks again. My original question was not if I should allow them to drink...i can't force anyone to do anything...but if it's acceptable for me to create that boundary that says it's not acceptable to drink in my presence so I'm going to leave right now. I'll continue to educate myself and I appreciate the answers.
My father was an A until he passed. My boundary was I'd never have a drink with him...except maybe a glass of wine at Xmas with the whole family. I could never control him and I just could just look out for me. As his disease progressed I never saw him when he was drinking. By doing that I didn't have to feel like I was part of the chaos. I could love him from a far and not be as directly impacted by his daily actions. Your boundary will be what works for you and what keeps you safe. ((Hugs))
I think that everyone deserves to be loved, but not everyone believes that they deserve it. Because they don't believe sometimes they will push the boundaries and try to find out where the line is where they are proven to be unlovable. For me that is like nectar for a bee - I believed that I was the person who could show my husband that he really was an ok guy. What I did not see coming my way, at all, was that eventually his behaviour undermined my ability to love him and I started to beat myself up for not being up to the task. If only I could do xyz it would all be alright!! I think that by trying so hard to be the strong one in our relationship I was actually endorsing behaviour that others would reject and was also taking away my husband's ability to see the consequences of stupid behaviour. That wasn't helpful! I think you were right to put those boundaries in place early on. We all keep learning and it helps us to learn about ourselves.
Just because my loved one(s) has a problem with alcohol does not mean I have to find a way to deal with this problem in my own life. When I try to accommodate or tolerate or force myself to accept someone else's drinking problem, then I have just completed lesson one in codependency and enabling.
I have a boundary that says I will not be in a relationship with someone who is in active addiction. My serenity comes first, and I need to protect that.
Reading these posts actually make me feel worse about my situation. Unless I decide to leave, then I MUST tolerate the drinking by detaching with love and taking care of ME. Since I can't change the drinker and his habits, then I must just concentrate on me. Not this original post, but some responses are making me feel shamed for staying in the situation or allowing the A to drink in front of me. Should I choose to set a boundary that states I will not be around the drinking, then I will never be able to go out to dinner with my A, attend any social functions, invite family over or ever be around him. I agree with the concept of boundaries, but in some instances, it is conflicting with choosing to stay with my A.
Your question: ....but if it's acceptable for me to create that boundary that says it's not acceptable to drink in my presence so I'm going to leave right now.
In my experience, I had to learn to be careful not to judge or shame the A by 'should-ing' them. Telling someone it is 'unacceptable to drink in front of me' can sound shaming or judgmental. Boundaries are about 'us', not 'them'. Another example of this would be this.. There is a lady I work with who has a very abrasive tone to her voice and is very negative and gossipy to the point that it makes me uncomfortable. When a group of girls go to lunch, if I know she is attending, or if SHE invites me, I just politely decline the invitation saying 'I'm sorry I can't join you all today'. I don't say to anyone 'Her behavior is unacceptable around me so I won't join ' and I definitely don't say that to her. That would be unnecessary, critical and judgmental of me. My boundary is established to take care of ME - I don't want to be around negativity or gossip at lunch time and then have that bad energy in my head all afternoon while working. So that is how I take care of myself, I just choose not to go, and I do it politely, not in a huff or state of indignance.
In the same manner, when I know my best friend is drinking, I can choose whether to answer her call or not. I don't 'have' to answer every call on my phone, and I don't have to explain to her either that I don't like to speak with her when she is drinking. It's about me, and knowing my own needs, and not expecting others to meet those needs. I meet them for myself. Whether it's limiting my exposure to drinking friends, or not spending time with difficult people. THEY should not and will not change for ME, but *I* can change my own behavior by making choices that protect my well-being. No need to justify or explain myself to 'them', that serves no purpose. No is a one word answer.
-- Edited by CyndiODAT on Thursday 26th of May 2016 10:30:10 AM
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"There will be an answer. Let it be." ~ The Beatles
Every situation is different, ad the situations change with time. There is no right or wrong answer here, just answers that work for us as individuals IMO.
The way I approach it is that almost all decisions can be acceptable, as long as they are thought-out, responsive decisions. For me, just reacting is really the most unacceptable thing from me - I see my wife is drunk, and I get mad and explode - that was a reaction. I see my wife drunk, and get mad, then think about it and realize that she has a disease that I can't control, and figure out something else to do so I can detach, that is a response.
so, if you find it acceptable to be at functions where he is drinking, then that is your choice, and no one will shame you for it. You may find you want to tighten up the boundary over time, or maybe you won't. It's entirely up to you, and your evaluations of what you think are acceptable or not.
I MUST tolerate the drinking by detaching with love and taking care of ME. Since I can't change the drinker and his habits, then I must just concentrate on me.
el I copied the above statement from your recent post because it is absolutely true. I resisted accepting that I was powerless over people places and things until I hit a very painful bottom and finally accepted this truth. Al-Anon gave me the tools of detachment, focusing on myself, living one day at a time, meetings and a sponsor in order to help me develop the ability to make healthy decisions for myself and my family.
My family of origin drinks continually, and I have no difficulty spending time with them. They respect the fact that I do not drink, and that is fine with them.
Learning how to discover what I'm comfortable with and being able to express it in a healthy fashion is a true gift of this program. Please keep coming back.
Thank you. There are definite boundaries I have set and am sticking to. However, to state that I will no longer be around his drinking would just make him hide what he does or perhaps go out more often to get his fix. At this point, I am more comfortable with taking care of me, rather than making ultimatums that will lead to more chaos.
Who knows, at some point, I might come to that conclusion. If I were to START a relationship again, I would not be with someone who was a substance abuser. However, I am willing to stay and work my program. Thanks for all the input!
This is a great thread....it shows to me the way this program works when we work it. Each situation is different and each of us is too. Recovery is a personal journey and there is no OSFA - One Size Fits All. I have stayed with my husband, even though he is an A and is active. This program allowed me to be able to accept him and my sons as they are, and to love them unconditionally. They are not uncomfortable drinking/using around me; the issue is mine and not theirs. If it others you, then it's time to establish a boundary for self-protection. If it doesn't bother you, then that's OK too. I have come to accept the good with the bad as that's what life is about.
I would love to live in a world where there was no disease, no evil, no disappointment, etc. However, it's just not realistic. This disease and my inability to understand and accept had me isolate vs. set boundaries. I avoided people, places and events out of projecting what was going to happen and whether it was right/wrong....how insane is that? History gives us a framework to learn from, not to live from. I believe in a HP that can and will keep me from harm's way so long as I am doing what is the next right thing for me.
It is when I cross boundaries and attempt to control others that I am upset, hurt, disappointed. When I am able to understand and accept that nothing happens by mistake, all of it is a part of my growth/journey, I am also comfortable with the hiccups presented by living life on life's terms.
So - there is no shame in staying and there is no shame in leaving. There is no perfect way to live life with this disease (or without it). It's a one day at a time journey meant to be filled with joy, laughter, peace and serenity. My best days are when I am self-focused and god-centered. My worst days are when I forget to use this program, and get wrapped up in the faults, actions and failings of others.
(((Hugs))) to all - still in AZ with the parents - headed home in a few days!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Reading these posts actually make me feel worse about my situation. Unless I decide to leave, then I MUST tolerate the drinking by detaching with love and taking care of ME. Since I can't change the drinker and his habits, then I must just concentrate on me. Not this original post, but some responses are making me feel shamed for staying in the situation or allowing the A to drink in front of me. Should I choose to set a boundary that states I will not be around the drinking, then I will never be able to go out to dinner with my A, attend any social functions, invite family over or ever be around him. I agree with the concept of boundaries, but in some instances, it is conflicting with choosing to stay with my A.
I want to emphasis more than anything else that you should not feel ashamed here for ANY choice you make. More than any where else you will ever go, the people in alanon really understand what an emotional roller coaster living with addiction can be. Not everyone makes the same choices or boundaries and not everyone is ready to make boundaries at the same point in their journey with an A. So please don't feel guilt or shame for your choices. We have all had our own hard paths that lead us to your boundaries. Most struggled with the concept a long time and I don't think anyone made a quick easy boundary and always felt great about it. Finding your guideline for you will be very difficult and emotional.
Just try not to get stuck in a box thinking you will NEVER go to diner with A, or attend social functions, or have family over. Keep in mind your A doesn't have to drink, but if they do... how do you feel? What behavior happens? Why are you worried about them drink in front of you? Basically WHY are you making a boundary in the first place? If an action really bothers you, embarrasses you, hurts you, or causes an outcome that you are affected by then you have a real reason for a boundary...right? The point of the idea of boundaries is creating your own safe personal space (for lack of a better word)
It does not mean you can't go to dinner with friends, or see family, or go to a work Christmas party. But if someone coming with you and drinking will cause you harm or chaos, or stress, or sadness then it is very OK to insulate yourself from it. It is OK to say I am going to dinner with my parents and we are not going to drink. if you would like to come, I would love to have you go, but we are not drinking. then it becomes your A's choice to attend or not. There is no fight, there is no guilt or blame. It is not about causing an argument.
The main point I am trying to make is that weather you choose to make boundaries or not is up to you, and it is OK to make them. I think many people feel guilty at first and emotional, and are scared of drawing these lines. When you are ready then you will be able to list out what is important to you and find your own lines. If you decide not to have boundaries then that is your choice too. But as things escalate with alcoholism, you may need some boundaries. Alanon is a great tool for helping you, so don't let anything stop you from coming back.
