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Post Info TOPIC: I'VE BEEN GIVEN A CHOICE B/TWEEN MY GRANDKIDS OR MY SON.....


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I'VE BEEN GIVEN A CHOICE B/TWEEN MY GRANDKIDS OR MY SON.....


Hello everyone....Newbie here!

I am not a newbie to Al-Anon, as I do attend meetings when I can, but i'm a newbie here. I am wondering if anyone has had my experience and if so,would you please share so I can maybe get some guidance? I know we cannot give advice, but we can share our own experiences and that's what I'm looking for.

 

My 31 year old son has been sober for almost 2 1/2 years....so grateful every day for this! However, he is still if not more, manipulative and abusive toward me than he has ever been. I give he and his wife money...LOTS OF MONEY...for bills, groceries and gas. I am deeply miserable on the inside and I am obviously not hiding it well anymore because my 28 year old daughter confronted me, via text, yesterday and asked me what is wrong. She went on to say that she no longer enjoys being around me, spending time with me and that I am "dead" inside. I try very hard not to share anything with her about the things her brother does, because it makes her very mad...at him and at me for enabling him. She kept saying "just tell me...I can handle anything mom....I'm here for you." So....I ended up sending her a string of text messages between my son and I, just over the past few days. Most of my days are filled with some type of problem or need for money from him. And unless I transfer money into his account when he needs it, the texts are extremely verbally abusive. I basically told her that I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship with her brother, and I'm so far into it that I don't even know how to get out of it. I have tried before, many times, and I also end up falling victim to his manipulation and abuse and end up giving him money and paying his bills. Her next text was short and said that she is so boiling angry that she has decided that she doesn't want a relationship with me nor does she want me to continue having a relationship with my grandkids (her kids).

Naturally, I am at an impasse. I am hurt and my daughter has become yet another person in my life that is pulling at one of my limbs. My elderly mother also lives with my husband and I and it's a very huge burden, but one in which I've agreed to. I feel like I've got one person pulling at my right leg, another pulling up on my left arm, another at my left leg and another at my right arm...all in an upwards motion as if to eventually split me apart. I know that I need to respect my daughters wishes and just leave her alone and that's what I'm doing. 

This relationship I have with my son is very toxic, I know that. I have an MS in Psychology and it is doing me absolutely no good because I'm too close to the situation or at least it feels that way to me. It's as if he has a spell on me. If I'm honest, I'm mad as heck at him for using me! But I'm equally angry at myself for allowing myself to be used because I know all of this is due to choices I've made. Only I can detach but guys....everytime I try, I end up regressing back to enabling him. I mentioned that he is sober and he is. But as far as has he relapsed or not....I guess that he has to decide what his definition of relapse is. He uses marijuana to control pain in his back. I have no idea how much he is smoking, cooking with and making butter and I don't know if marijuana affects a persons mood. He goes to a psychiatrist for medication control and is on Baclofen to reduce alcohol cravings, Neurontin, blood pressure meds and Subutex because a year ago in October, he admitted he had developed an addiction to pain meds. He hasn't taken pain meds in a little over a year and is on subutex. 

I need friends who understand! I truly feel like the relationship between an adult child alcoholic/substance abuser and a parent is different than one between an adult child non-alcoholic/substance abuser and a parent. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this. I have no idea how to even begin to start the process of detaching from my son and stop giving him money and allowing him to abuse me. It almost seems hopeless to me and I feel like this is the way my life will be until I'm gone from this world. That's how hopeless I feel right now. My grandkids are my world! I am with them and babysit them about 4 out of 7 days a week. It's going to be hard to not see them until my daughter comes around...IF she comes around. And the only reason I think she will come around is because she needs a babysitter while she works at her job as an RN. So I will probably still see them eventually, but there will be a gap between my daughter and I. Something unresolved. I cannot completely cut ties with my son, just so i can have a relationship with my daughter and grandkids. It is ludicrous if she expects me to do that. I also cannot threaten my son that if he doesn't stop using me, I will cut ties with him...because he has to live his life and make changes on his own and I have to take care of mine. I have to find a way to have a relationship with him without it involving money and abuse on his part. 

I know this was a very long "share"....but I really need advice and I am not opposed to loving criticism. 

Helpless in Texas,

bdlmom



-- Edited by bdlmom on Saturday 28th of November 2015 07:28:09 PM



-- Edited by bdlmom on Saturday 28th of November 2015 07:29:02 PM

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bdlmom


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I'm so sorry you're in this situation and glad you have found us.  The tools to maintain a loving but not abusive relationship with your son are simple but not necessarily easy.  It sounds as if you have great awareness that something needs to change there and that the current system is not working.  I remember that feeling of being completely overwhelmed and knowing that things were miserable but not being able to see the road out of it.

I wish I had started Al-Anon meetings more seriously earlier.  I went to a few but they were boring or disorganized or seemed not relevant to my situation.  So I'd show up from time to time but I didn't really understand how to work the program.  It wasn't until things got really, really, really bad that I started up again and started figuring out a new way.  I wish I had worked the program earnestly years before.  Al-Anon gives us the tools to detach and not be subject to the addict's manipulations.  They are masters at it and we need big powerful tools to keep to our decisions and do what's best for us (and for them).

So I don't think there's a set of rules out there, like "1. Do this, 2. Do that, and your problems will be solved."  There are the many tools, slogans, and steps to be worked, and all of them together give us new ways of behaving which change everything.  The dynamic with the A cannot be the same when one half of the dynamic is different. 

I hope you'll find a good meeting, start looking out for a sponsor, work the steps, read the threads here, get the literature, and start working on the life you deserve.  Keep coming back.  Hugs.



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Big hugs .. I'm not sure this will help however maybe it will help you get the help you need. I have had to stop or put it on pause my relationship with my mother. Very honestly she's a very toxic negative person. She was actually wishing for me to fail in my move ironically to Texas so I would be forced to take care of her. She lives in a world of fear that I just can't participate in I am under my own stresses that she constantly minimizes. I have dealt with the false echoing of you can tell me anything and the reality has been no I can't. It becomes all about her. It's always been that way our relationship. It's complicated is putting it mildly. Sometimes space is a good opportunity to heal. I accept her as she is I literally can't take the constant dwellings of drama and negativity. I have not cut her off from contact with the kids. She is free to contact the kids who are minors, however me and my life are off limits for her knowledge and comments. If we lived in close proximity I am unsure how much contact would be ok. She demands a care taker I'm not willing. She's fully capable of caring for herself. She's mentally unstable not physically. From what you shared it sounds like your daughter is at her wits end with the brother situation. Sees it as something she doesn't understand why you are choosing to do this to yourself. Right now .. I think it's more important what do you want and what are you getting out of this dysfunctional dance? Do you have a sponsor and are you working the steps. Big big hugs. Keep coming back.

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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism.  If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown

"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop



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Mattie,

 

Thank you so much for your concern and sharing your thoughts! I am a grateful Al-Anon, birthday 01-15-2012. However, I've only been consistent for about a year out of that time. Once my son became sober, I thought our troubles were over...and I'm find that is something many people think. I haven't worked the program like I am supposed to and I appreciate you reminding me that it's up to me to do this, so I can find the tools that provide me with the strength and grace to detach and love him...all at the same time.. It's even crossed my mind that my enabling him with money, and also allowing him to verbally abuse me almost daily....I am standing in the way of possible further growth he could be making in his own AA life. I don't want to be a stumbling block for him. 

 

I'm very thankful I found you guys....the almost immediate responses were more than I ever expected!

 

Hugs.....



-- Edited by bdlmom on Saturday 28th of November 2015 08:48:08 PM

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bdlmom


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SerenityRUS,

 

Wow...your mother sounds a lot like mine...and mine lives with me! It seems that anything I share with my mother, always, always ends up with her telling a story that happened to her that far exceeds anything I am currently experiencing. By the time we reach the end of the conversation....we are somehow talking about my mom and her problems growing up and the subject of what has happened to upset me, is irrelevant to her. So...I naturally distance myself from telling her anything even though she lives with me. I'm wondering if I mis-read my daughters intent because she just texted me....first time I've heard from her all day and said she hoped I had a better day today and that she loves me. She went on to say that I will always have them, but that I have to work through this toxic stuff with my son/her brother "For good" and not just for six months or so. She also mentioned that she might benefit from an Al-Anon group because she doesn't understand any of this that I'm experiencing. So that's definitely a "positive". I'm not sure if she will continue to allow me to babysit for a while or spend much time with her, but that's her prerogative. Main thing....I have work to do and it isn't going to happen overnight! 

I'm curious if anyone else has ever felt anger toward his or her alcoholic family member, sober or not, for us (the family members who it has affected enough to seek help), for putting us in the position of having to seek help ourselves?  Please don't misunderstand...I'm grateful for Al-Anon, it's concepts and principles....but just pissed off sometimes that I have to seek help and I am so screwed up by something he did? Or....did I do this to him? Am I to blame for him being an alcoholic, manipulative 31 year-old man because I enable him? Just trying tot think through this.....

thank you again for your response!

Hugs...



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bdlmom


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bdlmom - Here's my ESH.....try to make it quick but I can relate!

I met my husband - in AA - many years ago. We were both sober 5+ years when we married. We got pregnant quickly and had #1 Son within the year. Between then and 2 years later, my AH began drinking - sneaking & drinking and we had # 2 Son. So.....I suspected, smelled alcohol, confronted, he lied & denied and on we all went. I knew deep down but could not prove it - he traveled for his job and I was working full time + raising 2 kids basically alone.

Long story short, confirmed the boozing when my boys were around 12 & 10. Took a long while, but ... finally truth came out. I stayed sober and still am (28 years last month) he clearly did not and never returned to recovery. So - both my sons ended up as heroine addicts. Like most, they began experimenting and that's where they landed, young. My oldest supposedly was sober almost 5 years, then relapsed. I don't know if he was or wasn't but things were better than before. However, the sweet child I knew from birth to age 12/13 (when he first started drinking/drugs) appears to be gone/lost/buried deeply down.

He has and continues to be mean and verbally abusive. He blames everything in his life on me. He tries to manipulate and when I don't play, I get dismissed. He has my grandchildren and holds them as hostages. It's a terribly sad situation but I've used the Al-Anon tools to set boundaries, say what I mean, mean what I say and take care of me.

Boundaries - bank is closed. I am not a bank, a taxi, a grocery store, a bill payor, etc. - I am your mother. The bank is closed.

I am not a baby-sitter/day-care provider. I am a grandmother. I will watch your children if I can, but am not expected to do so.

I do not tolerate disrespect in person or on the phone. I will leave, ask him to leave or just hang up the phone when I feel uncomfortable with the tone, language, etc.

I am consistent and keep trying to work on the relationship portion. However, we have tons of baggage and he is immature, so that hasn't gone too far yet. His baby mamma just married a rich man, so they are hitting him up for all kinds of things, and the other grand-parents are the superstars. I was hurt by this, but have accepted it and decided I would rather have no relationship for now than one based on me being used as a door-mat.

So, how I did this.....a sponsor helped me (tremendously).....I had to realize, accept and surrender that I am powerless over him, his actions, his choices, etc. I pray for him always and I hope for better but I have surrendered and began my next chapter knowing that he may never love, respect, etc. me. I work my program every day and take care of me.

My second son is distant, but only uses pot now....he thinks that's OK - I don't but who am I to judge. He's had a job for almost a full year, and doesn't live at my home any more. I turn him over too and have hope that one day, my boys will either 'get it' and 'grow up' or not. Meanwhile, I will not allow them to continue to take, take, take from me.....they will never grow up and be independent if I keep enabling them - and I choose to not do that any more.

They are 23 and 21. My eyes were open wide as I watched my 65 year old aunt enable my two cousins who are now 40 and 36. She's cashed in all her retirement to support them, and they do not work, they do not contribute, they just take, take, take. My future passed in front of my eyes and I said, hell no - I didn't work my butt off for most of my life for that and shut it down.

So - nothing changes if nothing changes. You have the power to walk away from it all and live your own life. You've raised your children - let them go and see if they fly or fall. Either way, it's on them and not on you.

(((Hugs))) - glad you found us and glad you joined!! Keep coming back!

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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging.  Pause before assuming.  Pause before accusing.  Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret.  ~~~~  Lori Deschene

 

 



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I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. I'm not sure what to think of it all or what to suggest without breaking off ties with him other than to perhaps to block his number for a week (or an hour or whatever) any time he speaks or texts abusively toward you... and make it clear you won't interact with him if he can't treat you respectfully.

I have been around people who smoke marijuana enough to think it's highly unlikely to affect their mood in a negative way (except for extreme laziness). I've heard that long term use can make some people paranoid, so it's possible that it is contributing to his bad moods, but I don't think that's always a side effect or a terribly common one.

The people I've seen using it tend to just smile a lot, be happy, silly, forgetful, and mellow - and hungry - definitely the opposite of hostile or abusive or aggressive. Some of those folks use it for chronic pain relief as it seems to work well even in fairly small amounts without some of the harmful side effects of taking narcotic type pain meds on a daily basis. Compared to some of the drugs available by prescription, it really seems like the better choice.. and there are some doctors who even risk recommending it to their chemo and chronic pain patients - off the record of course. It's really a shame it isn't legal at least on a prescription basis for chronic pain and for nausea from chemo.

Some of those folks I know who have used it have a problem with alcohol as well, and I have to say I much prefer their behavior on weed vs alcohol.

It's possible that the marijuana is infiltrated with something else, but it could just be that he's a dry drunk who has unresolved issues.

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AnnM


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In the experience of someone I know who works in a mental hospital, excessive marijuana use can cause anger problems.  But any kind of addiction tends to go along with emotional problems, so it doesn't really matter what's due to what - it's all part of the syndrome.

Bdlmom, as I understand it, unless you give your son what he asks for, he goes into a rage and directs abuse at you.  I have a lot of experience of this through the experience of my former BF.  His adult son did much the same thing.  In fact it got so that that was effectively how the son made his living.  The son would say, "I'm about to be kicked out of my apartment, I need $500."  My BF would say, "I just gave you $1000 last week, you can't have spent it already, I'm not giving you any more, I warned you last month."  Then the abuse would start.  The son would send terrible messages, or show up at his door and rage at him, or tell long stories about how he was going to be homeless and he'd have no choice except to live with drug addicts who were the only people who would take him in and then he would be on drugs.  Or else he was just going to commit suicide because things were hopeless and his dad was so abusive and uncaring.

So the dad would buckle and give the son the money, and a week or so would pass and the next request would come in, and the same thing would happen.

The way I see this is:

The son was learning that this method of making an income worked.  Whether he felt those emotions or not, his dad couldn't stand them, so all he had to do to get the money was to go through the whole range of threats and emotions.  It was a reasonable income for not very much work.

Whenever we try to change, the other person goes into a huge "Change back!" mode.  So if the dad tried to set a boundary, the son would get even more furious and frantic and threatening.  And then the dad would cave and hand over the money.

This dynamic was terrible for both of them.  The son didn't get the experience of being an independent adult who could provide for himself.  The dad was anxious and miserable and resentful.

The whole thing depended on the dad not knowing how to set and keep boundaries.

I mentioned Al-Anon to the dad, but he had this idea that if he just explained the situation well enough to the son and begged him to stop, it would be okay.  I never saw that work.

The good news is that Al-Anon can suggest good and healthy ways to set boundaries and stop the miserable dynamic.  There are many threads on boundaries on these boards.  I hope you'll keep reading and keep coming back.

 



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a4l


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I have an addict brother who is almost 30 now,he was openly adopted within the family. So, he's had two mothers to "play" since he was 14 or 15. One used logic, but addiction isn't logical. The other used split personality, ie harsh consequences but the next day money, gifts etc. Over the years, ive watched him degenerate, occasionally I see my real brother, but mostly, not. Now, he has a wife, who carries on where mothers left off.as a sister, I could never understand why either of these women, who are strong I their own ways, enabled him the way they did while claiming to love him. He's a kid in a mans body.i don't know if its different, parent child,child parent, my kids are still young. But I do know what its like to be forced to let go of children, very painful, and life changing. I think addiction does that one way or another, eventually. We can let go of people while there's still choice in the matter and try find some joy in life, or we can cling until life makes ots own choices, hoisting it upon us. My brother is choked by addiction, and its awful. But until he cuts his own ropes, if he ever does, the person I knew is not there.my actual brother is/was kind,thoughtful ,honest,gentle,smart. Not a theif,liar,simpleton,beater of women.I miss him alot. Just my 30 cents worth.



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Mattie - thanks for correcting me on that. I've only got limited experience with acquaintances and don't want to steer anyone wrong. As you said, regardless of the reasons for the behavior, setting boundaries is the thing that needs to be worked on.

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AnnM


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bdlmom wrote:

I'm curious if anyone else has ever felt anger toward his or her alcoholic family member, sober or not, for us (the family members who it has affected enough to seek help), for putting us in the position of having to seek help ourselves?  


 I was definitely pissed off when I realized that, to support my AW coming home from rehab, I had to go to meetings too!  Now wasting my time after having wasted my money and my compassion and who knows what else.  But I dutifully went to my meetings.

Then I started discovering all kinds of things about myself.  What my part in it was/is.  How Al Anon is really about me and not her, and how it would improve my situation no matter what happened with my AW.  After a while i was glad that I went.

A few months later I went back to the inpatient center where I was pissed off when I realized I would have to go to meetings too.  I gave my testimony with some others from my meeting group.  There was someone in the crowd who was more pissed off than I was about the same situation.  I had compassion for her, and hoped that she would be able to forgive the qualifier and be able to go to meetings.  A couple of months later I went back to the inpatient center for a participant reunion with my wife, and I ran into said pissed off person.  I asked her how she was doing, and she said much better.   She had had approximately the same experience as happened to me.

So keep going to those meetings.  I discovered that I needed them whether my wife drank or not, I just wish I would have realized that 25 years earlier!

Kenny



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