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Post Info TOPIC: Differentiating between hope and expectation


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Differentiating between hope and expectation


I could probably start a million different threads about the million different things running through my head, but I'll try to keep this one focused.

I know one of the tenets of Al Anon is to let go of expectations...expectations lead to disappointment and resentment...etc.

I think I'm having trouble separating hope and expectation...or maybe they are one and the same and I need to let go of both? Letting go of hope (for the relationship, not for happiness in general) sounds so depressing.

My AH and I have only been married coming up on 2 years in September. We've been together for 4 years. The entire span of our marriage has been full of blame, anger, disappointment, doubt, guilt, resentment, criticism, you name it. It was 3 months before our wedding that I first began to suspect he had a problem with alcohol and that was the first time I brought it up to him. He was ashamed and apologetic and promised to change and those months before our wedding were good. But after that is when things really spiraled and it's just been a mess since then. A cycle of habitually drinking again, hiding it, lying, me confronting him, apologizing, vowing to change, showing remorse...then a good month or two...rinse and repeat. You know how it goes.

It was just this past May he admitted he had a "problem" with alcohol after getting a DUI. It was just a month ago he finally accepted he was an alcoholic after he relapsed. After the relapse came the familiar remorse, commitment to change, full of optimism period...now I can see him sliding back into depression and unhappiness, not wanting to go to AA every day, not calling his sponsor, etc.

I want to have hope for our future. My hope is that he remains committed to the program and sobriety, that he figures himself out - who he is, what makes him happy, what he has to do to achieve that - and that we can have a relatively normal life together. A life that involves financial stability, children, home ownership, and that doesn't involve alcoholism following us every day like a dark cloud.

I understand that alcoholism cannot be cured. But I hope that we get to a point where it's something in the background, that it's not always the elephant in the room, not something we think about or talk about every single day. That it's not something that affects our (potential) future children and our ability to be a loving and equal partnership.

Am I being naive? Are these things I "hope" for really just expectations that I need to let go of? Because, to be honest, I don't want to let go of them. I know that I can find happiness for myself by using my Al Anon tools and I'm sure I could manage to live somewhat peacefully IF he didn't manage to stay sober...but really, I don't want that. I'm relatively young, I don't have kids (though I want them badly), and I want the whole marriage package. I hate to say I "deserve" it but some days it feels that way...



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RS I think most of us would like those things in a marriage. The problem is you don't usually get what you want or need in an alcoholic marriage. I wanted my first child before I was 30. I got him. I wanted him to have a sibling. I got her. I didn't think of my AH's wants or needs at the time. It was all about me. I thought he would change and improve once the kids came along. WRONG! Oh how wrong I was! I ended up raising the kids most of the time on my own and suffered a lot of heartache along the way. They are now 13 & 16. I can only hope they aren't severely damaged by it all.

If someone told me back then that I should think twice about marrying and having children with an alcoholic I wouldn't have listened anyway. I was in love (still am) and nothing was going to stand in the way. Not even a little problem called Alcoholism! My AH did not find recovery until 18 years later. It was a long, hard road to get here. But things are finally starting to get better. I hope your AH doesn't take as long to figure it out. (((Hugs)))

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Rosanne 



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Dearest RS-

All of us started at the beginning. Our beginning or "hitting bottom" looked very much the same as your experience and your hurt. Your post is so heartfelt and transparent and full of the same thoughts and considerations I would lay awake at night with.

This disease follows a very consistent course of confusion, promises broken and heart break. And yet - we must walk it and feel it and live it to learn it.

I am so glad that at your young age, before bringing children into this disease, you have found the courage to reach out and ask these difficult questions.

This statement that you made: "I want to have hope for our future. My hope is that he remains committed to the program and sobriety, that he figures himself out - who he is, what makes him happy" is one I'd like you to reflect on and give to HP for moment.

I only do this because I think the key to unlocking hope for our future does not begin with him ( the AH )... it begins with HIM the HP. If we keep working the steps this truth reveals itself in time.

The beginning of our serenity may be found in a statement something like this maybe?: "I want to have peace, hope and serenity ( centeredness ) in MY future. My hope is that with HP's help I can work the steps and remain committed to MY program so that I can figure myself out - who I am, what makes me happy, what I need, what should I let go of and what should I take responsibility for? With the help of my program I will unlock the best course for MY future, one where my happiness is not tied to what others do or don't do for me. One where promises made or broken do not change the course of my life's compass - because I am in charge and in control of it's course. The sky's the limit for me and for my future family "

With the support of those who have walked this journey, with the real strength of this program and with HP - this statement is can become reality. This becomes the space where you will see the line in the sand.... where hope lives on one side, and expectation on the other. The choice will become clear.

It works if you work it.

Jenny

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We hope that things get better.  The likelihood is that things will continue as they have been.  That's just a statistical fact.  I would say that if we act as if things are going to get better, that's "expectation."  If we make our decisions based on how things have been and are, that's reality - and we can do that while hoping that our A finds recovery.

The statistics are that only 15-25% of those who enter recovery programs go on to achieve longterm sobriety. I just mention that because I thought that most alcoholics recovered.  I was just waiting for my own A to make that switch to sobriety, when all would be happy sailing.  He entered recovery a number of times, but he was not one of those 15-25%.  Maybe he will be still (though it is twenty years later now, and we are long separated).  Of course I hope for him.  But I seriously don't have any expectation of it.

I hear that you have hopes for him.  What are your hopes for you?  Because those are the ones you can control.  If your A keeps drinking, you don't have to give up your hopes and indeed your reality of making a happy life.

Do you have a meeting?  That plus working the Al-Anon program gives us all realistic hope of making our own lives much better.  Hugs.



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Dear {{RS}} for me detaching from my AH, with love and empathy, is a tool
that Al-anon gave me, which is very effective in removing the anxiety, fear
and anger created in the midst of the chaos and drama. My expectations that
I or anyone else can cure or change my AH are up to AH and I have placed
those wishes for my AH in his HP's hands. My hope is for me to continue
with my life in a productive and healthy way no matter what my AH chooses.



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 "Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it

does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown

Debbie



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RS - I had to stop and think for a bit on this topic - it's a great post and I thank you for it.

For me, when all else fails, I go do google searches. It was interesting to read about Hope vs. Expectations. I did find several articles that made some sense for my brain.

The easiest way for me to think about the two is that Hope is possible; Expectations are probable/improbable. What this means for me is we can always hope for better, improvement, happiness, etc. - it's based on belief and/or action. Whereas, expectations almost always depend upon actions of another and/or at least actions beyond our control.

So, hope is a positive feeling which originated from within. It is related to a desire that something might happen. And expectation is also a similar desire but mostly expectations depend on others in order to get fulfilled.

So, I can hope my qualifiers find sobriety. This leaves it open-ended and outside of my influence/control. But, if I expect my qualifier to be sober by Christmas, this suggests I know better than them/HP and certainly is outside my control and requires others to act to happen.

As I consider my day each morning and begin my conversation with the God of my understanding, I often pray that my qualifiers find peace and are happy, healthy and whole. I ask for his guidance in all of our lives, and always mention, 'thy will not mine be done.' So, I leave my hopes open-ended and have truly let go of expectations beyond my hula hoop. I can expect that I will go to a F2F meeting, as I drive, own my own car and know when/where they are. But if I expect another to show and they don't, I am disappointed. If I hope to see them there, the let-down is a bit different.

For years, I had expected some acknowledgement from my qualifiers on my birthday and/or Mother's Day. Each time they did not do so, I was sad, depressed - even heart-broken at times. This is because I set myself to receive something that may be very 'real' in the world, but not so in mine. I no longer expect them to recognize these days and I make plans (or not) with my friends/other family. I do still hope to hear from them on these society defined special days, but if not I am OK as I've taken action for the day to be as I would like it, as best as possible, within my control.

For me, this quote does often apply - "What screws me up the most in life is the picture in my head of how it is supposed to be..." I do so much better when I am living by the quote in my signature line!

Great topic and great discussion. HTH!


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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging.  Pause before assuming.  Pause before accusing.  Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret.  ~~~~  Lori Deschene

 

 



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It may help to understand alcoholism a bit more. When we get sober, all of us progress into depression because we don't feel comfortable in our skin. The reason for relapse is not because we drift into depression and don't feel like tending to recovery. The reason is that we don't work through that and change and instead, we are wusses and just cop out and go back to the bottle. So, just because he is depressed....well that is par for the course. What he does about it is entirely different. If a person wants to be sober bad enough, they will take that depression and so forth right back to the rooms and their sponsor and then work through the real issues why they are so negative, why they get depressed, why they can't handle responsibility without needing some crutch...

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I guess what I'm struggling with the most is I don't want to bring kids into this disease. And I desperately want kids, I always have. So I'm trying to decide if I should leave AH now and hope to move forward into the future I want - I know nothing is guaranteed but...

I do have a meeting I go to once a week. There aren't many in my area and there's only one that fits my schedule. I know, I absolutely know, I have a lot of work to do for myself. I have no illusions that if AH would just get sober everything would be OK. I'm trying to do the work for myself...the F2F meeting, reading along and posting here, reading the literature, and I'm following the Codependency No More workbook that I bought. I've started exercising again and I'm starting classes this fall to work toward my dream career. I also go to counseling bi-weekly. Even if I were to leave AH I know I'd need to continue this work for myself.

The big problem is, I could work as hard as I want, if AH isn't "healthy" I just can't ever see intentionally bringing children into the relationship. And I can work as hard as I want on my own serenity but if I have to forgo having kids because of the disease I don't think I could ever be 100% happy and fulfilled...



-- Edited by RealitySucker on Thursday 27th of August 2015 10:41:32 AM

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I don't know if this will help .. for me I "hope" my XAH will get sober .. for me to "expect" that he's going to behave in the way I think is completely unreasonable. Putting a time limit of he needs to get sobriety by .. XYZ time and date .. that's not going to create feelings of good will .. if anything I will find resentment and a whole lot of frustration.

What Yank talked about in terms of doing what she wanted to do and not thinking about her AH .. totally guilt of here. I never seem to plan well when it comes to things .. I just do and then hope for the best .. lol .. sometimes good and sometimes WTH was I thinking. I've currently moved to TX, no job and just praying for the best .. it really was the right move for us .. however I could have been better planned .. LOL.

If I waited and hoped my XAH was going to come around to my way of thinking so not going to happen and I remember having a massive meltdown with him one day and he looked at me and said .. S .. I do not think the way you do. It absolutely brought me to a stand still on my thought process in the moment and I stopped .. I mean literally I was speechless probably not a bad thing .. lol .. my point is he doesn't think the way I do and even if he was sober he probably will never think like me .. I don't know of many people who do and trust me .. my atty has told me over and over that I do not think like any of her clients which she's probably grateful for .. lol.

If he is telling you he doesn't want kids .. if he is showing you that's not where he is at and you have reservations about kids with him .. maybe that's something to really take a look at .. get a sponsor and reason those things out to a conclusion that you will be satisfied with .. however if he's showing you who he is .. believe him instead of trying to make him something he's not. Sobriety is not guarantee and while some can have periods of sobriety some can't go all the way, they never achieve emotional sobriety. They may be dry however what you see is what you get .. all of the waiting in the world isn't going to change them.

I don't know if my XAH really wanted kids, I think he liked the idea of kids however the full blown responsibility of what it takes to be a parent he doesn't have it in him. He loves our kids, his ability to show them .. ehe .. he really doesn't have the tools to be emotionally available and that's my experience in dealing with him.

Making lists helps me what are the pros and the cons of the situation .. yes .. it would have been better for my kids not to have an alcoholic father .. you know what .. I wouldn't trade them for the world and I will go all postal on anyone who gets between us .. they are very much a large part of who I have become and for that I am grateful to them.

What are the deal breakers in this situation for you? Then you don't have to make any decisions today about anything .. you have the choice to pray about it and wait to see if in 6 months your perception of the situation changes. What I will share about my kids is they have a lot of life skills none of their friends have and some probably need .. they have a higher power .. they know who they are today .. they also know what "no" means and yes while it frustrates them they understand they do not live in a world of instant gratification. They also understand first hand the devastation of addiction and they know how this affects them growing up.

IF you have kids with anyone .. DO be sure you can support them without your partner. That's been my life lesson .. I struggle in poverty because I can't support my kids the way I would like to and if I had an education as well as good paying job it would not matter if he pays child support or not .. me being me .. YES .. I will hold him to the line on that .. my opinion and I can go on about it .. lol. SO not ok.

When someone shows you who they are .. believe them.

Hugs S :)

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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism.  If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown

"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop



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Oh Serenity...sorry, should have mentioned this. My AH wants kids as badly as I do! He really does, he wants a family. It kills him that I'm holding off because of the disease. And you make every good points about deciding on my deal breakers and also giving it time...I already had decided I wouldn't make any big decisions until at least 6 months after he really committed to working the program, and that'd be January. It does give me peace to think I don't need to make a decision now...it quells my sense of panic a bit.

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I love Serenity's share as well as yours and this whole topic - it's such a good reminder for all of us.

It sounds to me like you're doing really good work! Between counseling and meetings and exercise and school - I mean there is no where to go but up if you continue your program in this same fashion.

Also - the good news is that if we're healthy and under 40 there isn't a ticking time bomb in our uterus that goes off in 3-2-1 ( sorry - just a little Nurse joke from yours truly. Smiles are good medicine!).

One tool that Betty writes about in response to my posts on occasion is one I hold onto tightly.

"We must learn to live life on life's terms". So-we must accept the "no" in this situation or any that life hands us. We wait patiently as there isn't instant gratification for us either, but HP has a great plan for us. I know you've set a date for January. Just remain open and flexible ODAT.

I also want to support Serenity's post on education of some kind and the ability to support ourselves FIRST. I have had a heartbreaking experience where at 20 I was in love and pregnant with my first child and setting up a nursery when my partner came home and told me he "couldn't do this" and didn't want to be in a relationship with me or our child.
I moved to low income housing and worked two jobs. I listened to my neighbor being beaten by her boyfriend almost nightly. I watched the police come and go almost nightly. I wanted more for him and for me. I chose an open adoption for his sake - as I couldn't fathom bringing my little guy home to that place and without an education I had NO WAY to provide for him.

So - yours truly went to nursing school on loans and is so blessed with an amazing job and the knowledge that I can provide. I also got to have two more amazing kiddos. He's turning 19 in several weeks and we will do our usual FB exchange and I'll send a card and maybe one day he will want to meet me. Maybe he won't. I'm staying open and flexible to all the possibilities ODAT.

Hugs to you - this isn't easy work, but it's good work.

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Wanted to reply to everyone but was short on time earlier...

Rosanne - What you said here "The problem is you don't usually get what you want or need in an alcoholic marriage.." is what scares me into thinking perhaps it'd be best to leave at this early stage. I feel like I SHOULD get at least some of the things I want and need in a marriage, otherwise what's the point of being married? And I definitely have no illusions that my AH will "get better" once kids come along, which is why I'm putting it off and not letting my desire for them trump reality. It's why I feel like I need to choose between staying in the marriage and resigning myself to never having kids, or leaving and hoping maybe one day I'll find a healthy relationship and can have kids...again, I know even if I leave it's not a guarantee, but it sometimes seems better than the alternative.

Jenny - Thanks! And actually I have a degree that I'm using right now but have decided to change careers. I'm going to become a Certified Nurse Midwife. :) I just hate living life always having to think about having a Plan B - I mean, I know that's the smart thing to do, but planning as if I'll have to use it depresses me. The trouble with me also is I don't have an HP...I do not believe in one, specifically. This is not to say I believe I am the most supreme being and there is no power out there that is greater than I, but I don't believe in an HP in the traditional sense. Some days I wish I did because it would make things easier. :)

Mattie - I always look forward to your posts! But yeah...I hate to expect that things will continue as they have been, because when I do, I know that I cannot continue. My hopes for me are that I can get into the career I am really passionate about and then I can one day have a family. Right now that's really it. I know I can achieve #1 and don't know if I can achieve #2 if I stay in my current situation.

Mandy - I agree very much with your quote!

PinkChip: You always have some really good insights as well. Yeah, totally get that depression is par for the course. I've just been concerned more this week because AH told me he had been so close to drinking that he went and was standing in front of the drink cooler at the store. He ended up not buying anything, but said he did not reach out to his sponsor or going to a meeting afterward or anything. That makes me feel as if he isn't quite working it, so to speak. I know I can't force him to call his sponsor or go to meetings, but I am observing a pattern and I see where we're headed...

Anyway, thanks all for the ESH. Clearly I have much self-reflection and thinking to do.


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Aaaand through texting with him he just told things were "Not going well," said he was pissed off an agitated about "most everything." Told me not to encourage him to call his sponsor because he doesn't want to talk to him and therefore he won't. Okkkkk...

"Grant me the serenity..."

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Hey Reality
What kinda stands out for me is that you say you're holding off on making big decisions until 6 months after HE has committed to working a program. And that's an interesting spin on how al-anon folk normally suggest people do things, which is to hold off on major decisions for 6 months after YOU have begun working the al-anon program, which would actually mean encouraging yourself to let go of any expectations that he will or will not do anything at all!
And it really does seem that however you look at it, you're hanging all of your hopes on his sobriety becoming a reliable tangible thing so that you can do what you need to do for your life.
I understand, because you really do deserve all of the things that his sobriety would possibly entail, like children and stability and a happy marriage, but the reality is, as long as you are committed to seeing through HIS sobriety, you haven't yet begun to work on your own recovery and it may be it prolongs the misery for you.
Based on everything you have said it's just not that likely he is going to become sober and stay sober right now....he might, of course, but unless he really, really wants it for himself he also really might not.

One way I chose to look at it was, we have to order from the menu. So right now you want to have children and a stable loving marriage in which to raise them. And you also want to be with your A. And he can't help you create that stable loving marriage right now or any time in the forseeable future. So as much as it sucks, it might be that you have to decide what you want to order because otherwise you're going to end up sitting in the restaurant long after closing time feeling hungry and angry and alone. Well, that was a visual that helped me to start clarifying what choices I needed to make.

What I eventually chose to order from my menu was just al-anon. I didn't leave him, or worry about what he was doing, I just decided on straight up al-anon that involved removed all of the "he" from my thinking and just focusing on "me". He drank, gambled, played computer games, and did everything he had always done but I did al-anon for ME and after a while it became easy to make decisions that were impossible before. It was such a life-saver.

Imagine if he does continue exactly as he is and relapses, or never fully achieves sobriety. Imagining that reality, what will you do? How will you create what you want and need within that framework? Is it possible?What can you encision for yourself that doesn't rely on his sobriety?

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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)



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Thank you missmeliss! That was super helpful! I loved your analogy about ordering from the menu.

And I know, you're right, I do need to flip the table and start thinking of it being about ME working my program (which I am, but clearly and still wrapped up in wanting him to do his, guess I'm not good at staying on my side of the street yet!). We started our programs really at the same time so either way I'm looking at January.

Imagining the reality continuing exactly as it is - I'd leave. That's my honest answer. But it makes me feel sick and it's why I'm trying not to make that decision yet because I obviously still have some doubt - and when in doubt, don't, right?

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Missmeliss--love, love, love the menu scenario. That is just awesome, plain and simple.

RS--I think after really working your program for say 6 months you will gain more strength and clarity to make a decision as to where things stand. Since I've started talking to people on the board here and attending meetings and one on one therapy I feel like my head is on straighter and I can handle things much more maturely. I have also learned not to be a doormat and to take time to take care of myself. That's not to say I don't have my moments. Just a week or so ago we were having a party for our son's 16th Bday. I told my AH to be home an hour before the party to clean up the yard. Well here it is a half hour before guests were due to arrive and he's still not home. I was overcome with all the old memories of him being out drinking and showing up to functions super late. I let myself get so worked up that I had to take a pill to calm down. Turned out his van broke down and he wasn't drinking but he didn't think to call me to let me know. So even though the alcohol is removed, the inconsiderate traits are still there. But like I said before it is getting better. He's learning. But it's a slow process.

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Rosanne 



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RS - I have often wondered about this differentiation myself. My counselor gave me this quote/idea 2 weeks ago and I can't get it out of my mind.

"Adult Children, codependents, etc. base decisions in life in wishing, hoping, or being afraid. Functional children/adults base decisions on the evidence."

How this works for me is that in my current relationship with 9-years sober ABF, I keep hoping that some things will be different or change and I base my decisions on that (and fear).

I know this is not the exact scenario you mention, but it is a good one overall to remember. It's ok to hope for things, but always be sure to look at the evidence of what is actually happening.

Good luck.

Beth

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