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Post Info TOPIC: Some stuff I thought about giving advice.


~*Service Worker*~

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Some stuff I thought about giving advice.


There is a post on the board about drinking whilst being a member of al-anon and whether or not that is hypocritical etc. And it details a situation where a spouse is complaining about their drinking partner whilst drinking heavily themselves. It brings up a lot for me. I started to write a response and then when I realised it was going to be a long one I thought I would make it separately as it's off the track somewhat. It is something that has troubled me regarding al-anon from the beginning, however I didn't have the self-assurance or faith in my own perceptions to articulate it before now as I had all kinds of assumptions about what people might think. So I'll have a stab at it now and I'm sorry if it seems obscure or makes no sense to others. 

I have mentioned here before that I was a binge drinker in my early days and I have been through stages of problematic drinking throughout my life. I first came to al-anon because my partner's drinking was much bigger and scarier than my own and through working the steps and making a commitment to self-care I came to reject the simple joys of blinding headaches or puking all morning and sleeping the day away. Through al-anon I also developed a desire to care for my own safety and with a dangerously drunk partner it became essential to be sober and clear thinking to protect myself and make rational decisions during his rampages. I've attended AA a few times in my life, to explore my own relationship with alcohol and have a couple of very close AA friends who love to talk program and first gave me the notion of getting myself to al-anon which is ultimately where I seem to find myself at my best. I have started again attending AA occasionally and read the literature and keep up with AA friends however I have never adopted long term abstinence. The fact that I so vehemently don't WANT to probably means that I should but that is between myself and my HP. What is relevant is that I am honest with myself about my relationship with alcohol and for the most part I drink little or none but during times of isolation, ie when my daughter is away during school holiday periods with her father I can lose interest in self care and start binging. Drinking and isolation go hand in hand for me; I don't drink in social situations at all. Then I usually pull myself up, go to a meeting or 2 and find myself "cured" and lose interest in drinking for the next 6 months...I'm sure there is a term for someone who uses the program like that and I'm sure it probably isn't complimentary, lol, but that's me right now in any event. I generally have no interest in alcohol so it's hard to find motivation to take on a long term program but when I am lonely and sad it can still bite me on the ass and make me feel like the world is ending. Anyway that is neither here nor there, I just wanted to establish that I have a history with alcohol and no two ways about it. I am a card-carrying member of the dark side and in no way a teetotalling saint.

 

Anyway what I wanted to share is unfortunately a bit of a negative experience I had with al-anon before I joined the program and something that I have kept to myself for a long time. It is giving me cause to re-evaluate my approach.

My ex husband and I met in high school and we used to binge and party and generally treat ourselves like garbage. We both drank and he also did a lot of drugs which I sometimes tried to join him in but did not like and for the most part declined. I experimented a bit in high school but always found the experiences frightening and usually pretended to partake whilst actually not ingesting anything so as to "fit in". Anyway when I became pregnant at 26 I ceased smoking and more or less stopped drinking other than to follow my mother's advice which was to have no more than 1.5 glasses of wine twice a week. (It's weirdly specific, isn't it?) I come from a family of very heavy and excessive drinkers so this counts as abstinence in our family. If I were to be pregnant again I would abstain entirely but I did what I thought was correct at the time and it was a radical change for me and one I really enjoyed, much to my surprise. Who knew that not being drunk all the time wouldn't suck? Motherhood was an amazing motivator for me; I almost feel as though I came to life for the first time during that time. I wanted to be healthy and well and happy for my child. I had never cared before that; I thought I was utterly worthless and I was on a mission to punish myself I think. Anyway my ex husband drank and drugged his way through my pregnancy and because I was boring and he could no longer smoke pot in the house, he took to leaving me at home alone to be pregnant all by myself while he got wasted with his buddies. It sucked. We were poor, we lived in a poo-hole of a flat. I broke my foot which refused to heal and sat on the couch talking to my growing belly when I became too big to work any longer. Husband didn't work while I was pregnant because he just didn't want to, bless his little cotton socks. He stayed at his friends house being wasted and playing xbox. He rode his skateboard 2 hours there and 2 hours back because we couldn't afford a car. That makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time. Of course he usually had to stay there for days at a time because it was a lot of effort to skate home and then back there again. Sigh, we were really sad juvenile people. How we created our amazing, clever daughter is a mystery only her very own HP could possibly explain.

Anyway his absenteeism and being terminally wasted continued and I will never forget the morning after our daughter was born, when he came into the hospital drunk, stoned and absolutely stinking of drug smoke to tell me proudly that he had been out celebrating the birth of his child all night. His breath smelt like furniture polish and puke. I wanted to punch him. With all of my heart, I wanted to punch him.

He continued to do what he did throughout the almost-a-year we stayed married following her birth and when she ceased breast feeding at 5 months I took to sitting outside alone in a rocking chair at night while he was out getting wasted with his friends and I drank beers until I fell asleep and I started to realise that I was in trouble and I started attending AA and abstaining completely. Drinking myself stupid was no longer acceptable to me now that I had a baby and I knew I couldn't do it alone. I needed help. Sadly it was shortlived.

Prior to me beginning AA he told anyone and everyone that I was an alcoholic and that I was the cause of all of our problems. I suppose that was an easy story for us to stick to as I was willing to put my hand up and play the fall guy and tell anyone that would listen that I was a very bad person with very bad problems. I was a very willing scapegoat. I began to notice that whenever we had company (I loved when he invited his friends over as I wasn't alone and I would cook up a storm for everyone and then sit outside around the fire and join in the drinking; I LOVED to feed everyone and it was my reward to sit down afterwards and get stonkered by the fire and join in the craptalking) and I started to notice that he seemed to be trying very hard to get me drunk. He would buy 2 bottles of whiskey and he insisted on a rule that we each had to drink an equal amount and that he couldn't have his next drink until I had finished mine, and as I am not a fast drinker (I get drunk very easily, I never did develop a tolerance plus I had been completely dry for over a year) he would be demanding that I chug my drink so that he could refill it.  I was very unhappy and drunk me would become emotional, usually crying to someone about something (me drunk generally means me huddled in a corner sobbing hopelessly, not what you would call a "fun drunk") and then he would begin telling our friends "see? Look at her! She's a disgrace! How am I meant to cope with this?" and so on. It was really horrid. He was in no way responsible for "making" me drink by the way, don't get me wrong, that's absolutely not what I am getting at. But he did seem to be very invested in making sure I got good and drunk when his friends were present and then making a show of how terrible I was. I felt as though he was putting me on display and it was weird and awful and I had absolutely no tools to deal with it. I just wanted it to be like the "good old days" when we would get drunk together and have a blast but it was different now. It was horrible in fact. It felt like he really needed to show the world how very awful I was and yet he made every possible effort to stop me from doing better or finding ways to become stronger and healthier. I recognise what it was now but at the time I didn't. I thought he was my perfect husband and I was a disgusting failure that had to find a way to do better. 

So anyway I started attending AA and predictably, he resisted. A lot. He refused to mind our daughter in the evenings so that I could go. So I took her with me. He drove me to the first 2 meetings but then went to his friends and wasn't there to pick us up afterwards. So I arranged a lift with a fellow member and then I had my AA friend drive quite a way to transport me to and from meetings. AA friend didn't mind because he lived and breathed AA and he knew I was determined. Husband complained and resisted and accused me of having affairs. The harder I worked at staying sober the harder he tried to get me to drink and I am not projecting here; I have not spoken about this here before because I know how it is when the A in our lives blames us for their drinking and thought it best to just not go there or discuss this, but what I mean is he would come every night with a bottle of booze and say "but I don't understand why you can't have a drink with me, I bought this for you, does being sober mean you can't even have a drink with me in the evening because that SUCKS" and then when I refused he would throw a tantrum about me being "no fun" and go to his friends for the night....again. Or he would say we were "going out for dinner" and then take me to a pub and plonk a beer in front of me and tell me I was wasting his money if I didn't drink it. On one hand he was telling the world he had an alcoholic nightmare wife and on the other he was (a always drunk and stoned and b) doing everything he could to get me to drink. It was ghastly and being the obsessed deeply codependent wife I was, I had no real sense of self preservation and just wanted to manipulate him into liking me again.Then his parents came to visit from overseas. He asked them to bring huge amounts of alcohol duty-free and became aghast when I said I wasn't going to drink with them (they are quite extreme alcoholics and when we had visited them a few years earlier it had been a horrible drunken free-for-all). I did give in after a few nights of his terrible dissapointment that I was being "antisocial" and listening to them get stonkered in our living room and joined them all in their alcohol fuelled hell and surprise- I got drunk for the first time in months, and I pulled out our wedding pictures all happy and excited and when he angrily told me to put them away I cried; he seized the opportunity to show his parents what his "terrible drunk wife" was like and we had a huge argument in front of them. The next day he told me that his parents thought he should leave me. Naturally. See I couldn't just get drunk and pass out happy like a normal person. I always freaked out and cried. It was unseemly. Just as an aside these people didn't drink 'socially", they drank until they all passed out in their chairs, or the garden, or on the toilet, etc. They are very heavy drinkers; it's like the family sport.

I went back to AA that day and he continued to drink and drug and he was treating me with absolute contempt which I could not understand. I was crushed. It made no sense. I was giving sobriety the best I knew how to give and he was drinking and drugging every day and then telling me at great length how I was ruining his life with my drinking. I didn't have a CLUE back then that he might be projecting his own stuff onto me, I just thought I was doing everything wrong. I actually believed that if I could get it right, I could be a perfect wife and everything would be fine. Because he didn't have a problem at all, I was the only one with problems.

Here's the kicker.

He went to al-anon one night a few weeks after his parents visited and apparently told him he should leave me. He told me he was going and I admit I found it pretty puzzling but I told him groovy, that's a good move. He came back and told me, "they said I have to look after myself and only myself". OK, good. Whatever works for you. He also said "they told me I have to protect myself from you". Er, alrighty then. Do what works honey. I love you!

The next morning he woke me up very roughly and dragged me outside. He was drunk, at 8am on a Sunday which was not unusual and I had not had a drop for weeks as I was firmly back on program. He sat there, chugging his premix and told me he had a great revelation after his al-anon meeting and that he was leaving me because "I have to look after myself, Mel". He packed up everything we owned (and I'm not kidding, he took the lot, even the bed although he had not purchased ANY of it, they were all my own things and things purchased by my parents) and off he went leaving me with a baby and a house that was empty aside from vast, vast amounts of his rubbish. He came back 2 weeks later (I welcomed him with open arms) and pretended he wanted to get back together and took all of my rent money and left again and that was the end of our marriage. 

He used the same line over and over to justify everything...taking all of our belongings, my money, refusing to mind our child so that I could work on the weekends, refusing to pay child support, refusing to meet a single responsibility. "I have to look after myself, Mel". And he really did look after himself, no doubt about it, and he continues to do so. His commitment to the task is quite impressive.

So anyway, to quote the late Terry Pratchet, we've passed a lot of water since then. 

But it does give me pause to think about what I say to others in program and how I make assumptions about the loved ones they describe and how very wrong I could be. It's SO tempting for me, when someone describes their alcoholic loved one, to start analysing the motives of that third party and give my opinion about what they are saying and doing and how they are probably manipulating others to feed their addiction. I do it ALL the time and I think it's something I would like to be conscious of and cease doing because I can never actually KNOW. I think about my ex husband going to an al-anon meeting, where he said they were "all nice older ladies" who comforted him and told him he should look after himself, and how he went home and got drunk and the next morning left his (very sober) wife and child and took everything they owned and I think, I can just never KNOW what someone else's reality is and if I am going to participate in a board where we discuss al-anon and delve into the unavoidable grey-area of giving some form of advice (and there's no way not to do that in a forum; you can't exactly have "no cross talk") then I need to be mindful of my own experiences and remember always, there but for the grace of HP go I.

Thanks for reading and I am sorry if this makes no sense or seems irrelevant but it's been weighing on me and I needed to try to articulate it.

 

 



-- Edited by missmeliss on Friday 29th of May 2015 04:46:27 PM

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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)



~*Service Worker*~

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Great share as usual Ms. M. i can certainly understand all that you outlined and that is the main reason why i make sure I only talk about my Experience when sharing about this dreadful disease. Keeping the focus off others, especially the one who is not present to defend themselves, is crucial to my recovery and maintaining the integrity of the program

There is a reading in the ODAT that spells this our completely The ODAT states that the person at the meeting has been stressed to the max and without knowing it my be leaving out important facts that is why we only offer tools to and do not urge aciton or take anyone's inventory

As an after thought I have had several sponsees who fter working the 4 through 10th Step decided that thy were aloholics and left to join AA as their primary meeting I still see them occasionally at alanon meetigns and they are very happy

The moral as you indicated is to not jump to conclusions and only share program tools

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Betty

THE HIGHEST FORM OF WISDOM IS KINDNESS

Talmud


~*Service Worker*~

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Thanks Betty.
It occurs to me that I have become a bit of a "crusader" in some ways and it is perhaps not helpful to me or to others. I think it would behove me to remember just as you say and not discuss people that are not there to defend themselves.
As to AA, I suppose I have had my foot in the door for a long time. I don't have any shame or hesitation about it, I just generally don't find alcohol to be a significant factor in my life and then when things are very sad and lonely, suddenly it becomes a big black cloud. Whereas al-anon is relevant to me all the time and something I can make sense of every single day, good or bad.
I'm grateful to be a work in progress, anyway


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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)



~*Service Worker*~

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Also, laughing about how I shared about what someone else did to illustrate how it is possibly not helpful to pay any mind to people's illustrations of what someone else did....lol


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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)



~*Service Worker*~

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This sounds like the reverse of my story. I think we all have different versions of the same story. I went to Al-anon and my ex then went to AA I pretty much got the same blast and he would use it to invalidate me, have affairs, still use, and deny my needs. I was selfish when I expressed a need. I was jealous when I expressed a concern. I had pretty much stopped drinking ... Maybe once every six months although not with him. I use to wonder who are these people that can tell me my emotions without meeting me? Whether he made it up, spun the program his own way or was truly getting that advice I will never know. What does matter is that I know a healthy relationship does not consist of invalidating someone else's emotions. I knew that at the time and I still know that.

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Senior Member

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I love listening to you long timers. I feel like a kid again except that this time I can see how difficult and treacherous the path that lies ahead is. But this time I have guidance. Thank you missmeliss and Betty!!

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El infierno es la ausencia de la razón.


~*Service Worker*~

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Meliss, to me this demonstrates the difference between meetings and MIP board. I know here people "vote" a lot on what another person would be wise to do. In meetings, we speak about ourselves and our situations, and it lies on the floor in silence. (contemplative silence)

I appreciate you bringing up the perils of us reacting to half of the story. Good topic.

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a4l


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thank you for this share. I could relate to it. Xx



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~*Service Worker*~

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Great subject melly. A lot of us Come from
dysfunction and or alcoholism Or both so we
Have our own demons to slay addict or not.

I know i did and after i grew up i went to therapy to
Help me after something happened that i could not deal
With. After that i moved away and Reinvented
myself and healed. I was still sonewhat Dysfunctional but no
where near what i was and i was not living Around
my mother. I moved where we had a cottage so
It wasnt total but much better situation.

Along came my xah that had gone sober, he
Still played with drugs and stuff we both did.
We lived together and he got totally dry and
Stayed that way for 30 years. But i still drank
1-2 beers a day.

I stopped when it just made me sleepy. It just
Wasnt worth it. Am i an alcoholic i dont think so.
I eat too much. I like to gamble. I dont know if
That makes me an addict or not. I really do not
Worry about it.

We just Do the best we can with what we have. Some
people Start in alanon and end up in AA. Alanon is good
For most people anyway. You have grown so much dont
Knock yourself. You are a strong woman and a Survivor
and you have not had an easy life.

I consider myself a survivor, i am the most normal
One of the my family. Did i have massive pain and damage
From my upbringing yes it was not good in many ways.
I have thrived and grown in spite of all the damage.
My father was the good guy he was the A my mother
Highly dysfunctional/ narcissistic. They got divorced
When i was 8 no more big happy family.



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~*Service Worker*~

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Great share mel, very honest and open. It seems to me like you have been growing in awareness more and more about the truth of you.

I think about the newcomers to meetings  and it doesnt really matter at that time the ins and outs of someones life story. The fact is alcoholism is a family disease, the family is sick so bad behaviour on all sides is kind of a given. Not only bad behaviour but i dont think there ever was a newcomer who came with any idea of what the truth was of their own part. We all come at the beginning blaming and denying. it takes time to see the truth. Your husbands truth may never be revealed to him never mind it being there for alanon members to see.  

You said so much here that suggests you have been working your program, so keep at it and more and more will be revealed.

i suggest working on forgiveness towards your husband during this period of your life. Thats where the freedom was for me.  When i learned to look back, never stare, and see that he was a sick person behaving as sick people do,  it wasnt ever really about me, i was never really a victim, i played roles like the sick person i was too, so it was like a big sick mess, i was not better or worse than him ever. I forgive him and more importantly i forgive me and im free of looking back and reliving it, refeeling it and its mainly to do with forgiveness, putting my ex back to life size human rather than a bad evil monster.



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~*Service Worker*~

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Thanks for sharing! I always find it so helpful to hear what other people are thinking and working with.

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Skorpi

If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. - Lao Tzu



~*Service Worker*~

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Great post Mel! I am certain that my ex completely made me the fall guy to the group he went to for a little while, everything was always my fault, or someone else's fault, never his. Seems to be a common denominator for A's. I remember tending bar and listening to guys cry in their beers about the mean wicked horrible ball and chain at home and thinking, yeah, sure dude, I'm sure she loves being left at home to tend the kids while you sit at a bar laughing with your buddies, sure she loves the stank of alcohol on your breath as you try to make your moves on her after she's sat and stewed for hours, I can't imagine why she's bitter.... Everybody's got a story and we want people to hear things from our point of view - but there are three sides, sometimes more, to every story, his, hers and the truth in the middle.

I like the no advice concept in Al-Anon because our family gives us advice, our friends, co-workers, anyone we've confided in - we humans tend to want to help when we see people in trouble and we want to help by giving advice. And sometimes in life, a lot of times, advice is helpful - I advised my traveling daughter to get a car jack to use to jack up the uhaul so she can get it on her car and she did and it worked. That kind of helpful advice is different from the well-meant but unwelcome advice to "just leave the guy" because just leaving the guy won't resolve the problems that simply.

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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France


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Being in both AA and alanon, I have often caught both sides of the story...sometimes literally...as in from the husband and the wife with one in AA and one in Alanon. Usually the truth is in the middle. Advice...I learned to be a bit more wary about it but I also know people will seek out the advice they want until they find it...that is if it is advice they are seeking. We share our esh...so when some one comes complaining about their horrible qualifier and so on and so forth...They will hear "I had that happen. I had to protect myself and look out for me." If they take that as "YOU have to protect YOURSELF from her and look out for YOU " and so forth...well not much we can do. If they take it a step further to "You need to abandon her with your infant and take stuff that doesn't belong to you" that is probably what they wanted to do and were going to do anyhow. I do try to watch advice giving, but I also don't take responsibility for other people's motives.

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~*Service Worker*~

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I like the no advice concept as well. When I came to Al-anon(the second time), I was so overwhelmed and emotionally enmeshed that I could not tell my emotions anymore. I was struggling to find my voice because I had been told my emotions were wrong for awhile. I logically knew they were not wrong. They are your guide .... However I had allowed another person's voice tell me "who I was" ...now I know although I allowed it ... It was not my fault that my boundaries were getting busted. I was saying no and my "no " was not respected. That is why it took me so long to figure out was I setting boundaries wrong. As I reflect on it now, no I wasn't. Repeatedly not respecting boundaries is abuse whether a person is sick or not. "You might not like my goal posts but you don't get to move them". I like when people wait until I ask before offering advice. I know myself well enough I know when I am ready to take the next step. We are humans we can only integrate knowledge at a certain pace. I know others like it a different way as well and that is okay too. I try to go with acknowledge the feeling ... That does not mean I agree with the behavior.

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~*Service Worker*~

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Abuse in itself Is a hard thing to walk thru and
heal from. First You need to find yourself then
define a Healthy reality. It all takes time And
healing from abuse. I have three abusers
circling me. They are very active. I have built
My own fort to protect me from them.

I love my D + A therapist. She points me in the right
Direction and sets me straight in a loving manner. She
helps me own my stuff not his or my family's.

I keep trying to do my best and work on me With Gods
guidance. I am still a work in progress that needs all
The love and support i can get.

Life is not easy and i pray for peace and serenity.

Do i judge my ex yes i can not seem to help it.

He has hurt me in ways no man should treat his
Wife. Was i apart of allowing it, yes. I should have
Left him and went to a womens shelter. It would
Have been an honest move on my part.

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~*Service Worker*~

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I had to learn not to be so hard on myself. After the last affair, I did essentially "leave". He made the choice to physically leave but I made the choice to emotionally end the chaos. I was grieving, working through the end of the relationship, the affair, and having a baby. I was really stuck on the whole "forgiveness" thing so I could co-parent and I walked right back into abuse. If I was a "good" person, Christian .... Insert whatever, I should be able to forgive. Bygones be bygones forgiveness. That kind of forgiveness is great, however I had to accept not reality.

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~*Service Worker*~

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Great share missmeliss ... You really got me thinking .... And validating my experience!!

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~*Service Worker*~

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Great share and I love how we think advising based on our experiencing is what comes naturally, but like here can be so detrimental. I once gave a girl in school advice on how I learned certain things to remember in order to pass a test. So after the test which she failed she blamed me for putting in her head what worked for me. A great lesson for me is to let people figure it out and love them until they can love themselves enough to do it. This journey is not an easy one, but together so very worth it. Al-anon people have helped build me up enough that I now believe in myself and am getting healthier everyday and happy and free of lots of the old cycles and people who I let into my life that only held me down and back with my help. Sending you much love and support on your journey!

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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree

Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666

" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."



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pinkchip wrote:

Being in both AA and alanon, I have often caught both sides of the story...sometimes literally...as in from the husband and the wife with one in AA and one in Alanon. Usually the truth is in the middle. Advice...I learned to be a bit more wary about it but I also know people will seek out the advice they want until they find it...that is if it is advice they are seeking. We share our esh...so when some one comes complaining about their horrible qualifier and so on and so forth...They will hear "I had that happen. I had to protect myself and look out for me." If they take that as "YOU have to protect YOURSELF from her and look out for YOU " and so forth...well not much we can do. If they take it a step further to "You need to abandon her with your infant and take stuff that doesn't belong to you" that is probably what they wanted to do and were going to do anyhow. I do try to watch advice giving, but I also don't take responsibility for other people's motives.


 I can so relate to this Pink, I used to desperately seek out the advice I wanted to hear and would turn a deaf ear to the advice really suggestion that was best because it was to painful. I also tended to get a little irritated when sharing my ESH and someone would say something like, you should dump the guy or you know you have choices right. I don't try to give advice, but I do try to share my story and what I have been through with my AH and what has worked for me and what has not.



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Linda

Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will have it's own worries

Matthew 6:34



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Thanks all, for sharing your thoughts on this.

I suppose when I first started looking for help (from a partner perspective) I started out by talking on a forum for addicts thinking I could find insight into how to "fix" my partner. And there was a particular guy there who took great pains to open my eyes to the ways in which I was being manipulated and abused purely to feed an addiction, and that none of my "loving" gestures or patience were doing anything other than reinforcing my willingness to enable myself to death.
In that instance he was actually dead right and this insight was like a bolt of lightening for me. It was the game changer and the beginning of me wanting to get well, for ME.

So I tend to pass on this knowledge to all and sundry thinking that I am "helping" but it occurs to me that I have made it a habit and one I perform without much discernment these days when I can't know what really goes on in another person's home or life.



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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)

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