Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

SpookyMulder · Veteran Member

SEX: AN HONEST QUESTION...

almostThere · Senior Member

Oh boy. Here we go.

I'm going to keep it toned down.

My AW and I could get things going pretty well on the rare occasions that things could get going at all. I felt REALLY guilty that those were the only times I really wanted her to drink. She has such low self-esteem that only when she was good and oiled up could she even begin let go.

My libido kicked in when I was about 6, and hasn't stopped since. Too many nights of almost 20 years of my married life have been spent the way too many were spent BEFORE I got married - wondering "How will the night end - will I get laid or will I be holding someone's head over the toilet?"

In the end, I think she and I are pretty good at it for a few different reasons.

One is that I've spent more time with her than any other partner, not necessarily in bed, but in life.
Another is that as we get older, we start to realize that things we thought might be OVER the top aren't even AT the top and with time passing we are more willing to at least try to GET to the top.
Still another is that at times, I've been so starved and/or (I'll admit it) so angry, that I manage to transfer the passion into the act and let go myself.

All that being said, I'm holding on to the idea that the absolute best sex is going to be between two happy, healthy people who love themselves enough to be vulnerable and each other enough to be non-judgmental and who want to please for all the right reasons.

What about love, you say? I think that the situation I'm talking about can only really be present when two people love both themselves and each other.

That's what I'm clinging to. Hoping for. Longing for. Dying for. And may end up dying without. But I'll never give up hope.

ladybugnessa · Senior Member

We have not had any sexual intimacy since before thanksgiving. Our sex life was NEVER good. it will never be good. He is the exception to the rule I guess.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I am really not an expert on this subject but I will say that I was married to an alcoholic for 23 years, and I have been in an intimate relationship with a nonalcoholic for the last 25 years. In the beginning, the sexual relationship with my husband was exciting, intimate and sweet- with the loss of trust on my part it dwindled and disappeared as the alcoholism, increased.

As "almost there", has indicated in what he is looking for---the intimate and sexual relationship with the nonalcoholic is different, and more fulfilling.It may be because in this relationship. I've learned to love myself first and then share that love with another. I think I have grown and that has made a big difference as well.

Skorpi · ~*Service Worker*~

Ladybug, I am not sure. I don't think that our sex life has ever been good, either, and I definitely am not interested in being intimate with my wife at all right now. I do not think that the same is true for her, or at least, she is much more vocal about wanting to be intimate.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

In the early years, I thought it was fantastic because it was prolific and intense and I hadn't experienced that before. It wasn't really enjoyable for me but I thought that was because there was something very wrong with me. Ha. I still thought it was "amazing" because no-one had ever been that constantly into me before...5,6,10 times a day even for the first couple of years. Wow right?

As time wore on I started to see that it was all about his ego and there was no real connection going on at all, and also that he didn't give a pickled fig if I actually enjoyed myself as long as I pretended to. As time wore on further I began to realise he didn't enjoy it that much himself and what we had was 2 people both working very hard to keep up the illusion that he was some kind of amazing lover when in reality neither of us really enjoyed any of it. He also began to only be interested when he was good and drunk which made it all the more unpleasant. As I grew tired of pretending and tired of being uncomfortable he started to pick fights in the middle of sex, because I wasn't enjoying it enough or not doing this or that right, it became exhausting and it was so terribly one sided. However he was absolutely unwilling to do anything differently or consider trying anything I wanted. It came to a point where I knew that any encounter would end half way through with him storming off to sleep somewhere else and refusing to speak to me for days and there was pretty much no way to prevent this scenario so I started to absolutely dread it and every time I saw him with a drink in his hand I knew where the evening was headed and just wanted to run away.

So yes it was "amazing" and certainly unlike anything I had experienced before....and ultimately it was traumatic and exhausting and really unpleasant and I have gone from what used to be a very healthy appetite to none at all and I'm quite happy to stay that way now.

-- Edited by missmeliss on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 09:54:01 AM

Mirandac · ~*Service Worker*~

My ah Was dry so sex was mostly always good.
Even At the end when things were bad we still had
Enjoyable sex. It was more of mutual satifaction
Than love or lust.

To me if no sex, no marriage but he was dry all
our married years. At least we had some physical
connection.We were no longer emotionally intimate
Though. That had died years before but kept up the
physical aspect.

In truth the real marriage was over with the emotional
Intimacy gone. It died a very slow and heartbreaking
Death. I am still very sad it happened.

I really wished i had started alanon years ago because
I could not put to words the whys of emotional intimacy
Ending. I can now. He was not validating me, my emotions or
Feelings and it is hard to show your under belly to some
One that treats you like that.

We had it once upon a time i guess. At least i hoped we
Did. Always cuddling, holding hands, that went on for
Years then it just stopped.

Walls were put up and feelings Stuffed with hurts. The
Death of emotional intimacy in a marriage is not healthy
Or good.

This is the painful part of the breakup of my marriage.
I too played a part in not fixing the problem. He wanted
To be touched more and i could not do it. But i could not
Have honestly told you why. I loved him and we still had
Good sex but a big piece of the puzzle was gone. By the
Time i was in alanon and figured things out it was too
Late in the game.

almostThere · Senior Member

Amen Mirandac.

My anger swells at the thought of the years of life spent without intimacy.

I'm trying to shift the blame from her to me.

She didn't rob me of intimacy, I robbed myself.

If I can shift that blame to me, where it belongs, I can use my HP to learn to be at peace with it and hopefully forgive myself.

I've only been on this board for a few days, and I've been to only one meeting, but the healing has already begun and for that I thank all of you.

Mirandac · ~*Service Worker*~

It is a hard road with an alcoholic Dry or wet.

You need to both be emotionally healthy to sustain
A healthy loving mutual relationship. Relationships
are a lot Of work even then. It takes maturity and
Willingness to be kind and give of yourself.

My next relationship i hope will be a few years down
the Road when i am fully healed. God has me So I
am good there but the pain and hurt still linger And
need to be worked thru.

-- Edited by Mirandac on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 11:53:17 AM

CoopsMom · Veteran Member

In my marriage there are some good nights, but to be honest that sex is usually fueled by some underlying anger. Overall I would give our sex life the thumbs down... I don't think you can have a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone who is selfish. This disease has made my AH a very selfish person, and it flows into all parts of his life.

Mirandac · ~*Service Worker*~

Can i say another thing about emotional intimacy.

This is the point my MIL feels i was a bad wife not
Giving her son that type of attention he so craved.
Basically she thinks of me as being abusive wife.

It was not a mutual thing he did not give it to me
but Felt as the wife it was my job to be doing the
Unconditional giving all the time. The touching,
Cuddling and kissing. Eventually that all stopped
Except for sex.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Interesting Mirandac. My ex MIL was always trying to coach me to be more available to her son and suggesting completely counter-productive and pointless "cures" for our problems (like dressing up, or seducing him in various ways). It was weird and insulting, the implication was that I was the cause of all of his issues because I was not a satisfactory sex partner. And then I decided that really, it said a lot more about her own insecurities than it did about me (I never discussed sex with her and he listened to her intrusive sex talk but I never heard him say anything other than uncomfortable "oh come on mum stop it, I get it, enough" etc. So all I really took from her suggestions was possibly a bit of insight into the kind of relationship she might have modelled for her son and not much more. I also heard her many times describe other women as "cold, frigid, unloving, bitch" and always in the context of "the poor guy, who can blame him for drinking, drugging etc...his wife is such a...."
It's a sad and sick perspective that really doesn't have much to do with us in reality and doesn't deserve to be considered IMO.

Mirandac · ~*Service Worker*~

Melly it was never overt. Their discussions were
Behind closed doors. Him crying to momma oh poor
Me and her validating him but emotional intimacy was
A very real problem between us.

A third party should never been involved. He brought
her in and she is a fixer and an untreated codie

Its the family disease of alcoholism at work. His
Addictions almost come second to that. Its their
Thinking its everyone else not them or the disease
As the root cause of the problems.

Saucy · Veteran Member

For me, great sex is directly connected to emotionally connecting to the person.

If I am not emotionally there, it is just a physical act, and there is nothing great about it.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Program helped me to see, learn, so much more about loving and sexing and how it went on in my life. For one sexing and love were wrongly defined and practiced. I got a lot of sex and when I did figured I was being loved and therefore would love back and then the relationship would go on for a while based mostly on sexing and sexual intimacy was the only intimacy we would practice. As always the physical intimacy would be come habitually usual and contact lessened. I thought I loved when actually I just mostly sexed with focus on maintaining sex. I've had a lot of affairs and in program during the 4th and 10th steps learned that sexual intimacy requires a nerve ending...and that nerve has lots of power just like alcohol. it is attached firmly to my mind and emotions and spirit; love did not have to be involved. In the program I found love..."the complete and total acceptance of every other human being for exactly who they are" and I didn't need to sex anyone before doing that. My experience includes a lot of sex for that nerve ending consequence and then leaves me empty as no intimacy is included and that doesn't feel loving. I don't need to sex to love. ((((hugs)))) smile

Green Eyes · ~*Service Worker*~

Good topic- one we don't always feel comfortable about sharing, but certainly an important issue in regards to being in a relationship with an A. For me intimacy is all about trust, without trust, the intimacy of a loving sexual relationship become meaningless. Once my AH became fully strangled by alcohol, the alcohol became his mistress. The trust started to fade away and I no longer wanted to be intimate with him. I loved him, but I no longer liked whom he had become. After being together for over 30 years, a great sadness prevailed. I'm glad that I had my program tools to get me through this challenging time in our marriage. When I finally decided to leave, the intimacy was only a special memory- one that I still hold onto, even with him being gone from this world.

-- Edited by Green Eyes on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 04:53:49 PM

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

Spooky, I'm guessing there's a good reason why alcoholics who are new to AA recovery do a sexual inventory concerning past behaviors. TT

SpookyMulder · Veteran Member

These are all fascinating and vulnerable replies and I very much appreciate everyone's honesty. I can relate to those who said things were exciting in the beginning (even more so than in a "normal" falling in love phase) and then, as the emotional abuse and/or starvation increased so did the enjoyment. My AW couldn't seem to understand why, after she had a rage and said things like "You aren't any kind of good catch...You're disgusting, etc..." that I would not want to engage in intimacy. It was hard even to get out of bed and face the world, let alone open my soul to someone. I am interested to here more from people -- anything you want to write. After reading the posts I am particularly interested in the cycle of abuse/manipulation/anger/intimacy...

a4l · ~*Service Worker*~

On cycles, I think sex is like part of the drama. Fight fight fight then jump in to bed and everythings so intense because your actually an emotional wreck. But its a type of high and highs are addictive. I've experienced such a dynamic with a former partner who was a non alcoholic. Years later I looked back and shook my head for the intensely emotional sex was technically not anywhere near good. With the ah, I lost interest once I started getting program as I realised sex for its own sake is something I need a lot less as I get older. Whereas for him, he believed sex was the nerve of love. I never really did understand that.

Irish7 · Senior Member

I am very conflicted on this issue. Between our work schedules and his weekend/holiday binge drinking, the only time we can be intimate is 7 or 8 mornings a month. It's the only time we have together, and it's usually about 2 hours, 6am to 8am. It used to be fantastic, the best id ever had. As the disease progressed, it got less good because of my resentment and my sheer anger that he prefers the bottle to me. Yet I kept getting up at 5am to pretty myself up. Due to a change in my work schedule (necessitated by his adult children's alcoholism, but that is another story), I will be switching to a brutal night time work schedule. So it will be nearly impossible for me to get up at 5am on the weekends now. I'm partially relieved because I just don't enjoy it very much anymore. But I'm also sad, too, because this is the only time we spend together at all, and it's the only affection I get.

The ironic thing is that I used to put this all on myself due to being overweight. I've since slimmed down quite a bit and look very good. And still nothing improves. I'm glad al anon and AA have taught me that this is fairly typical and that the only thing I can change is me.

andromeda · ~*Service Worker*~

Honestly, my sexual relationship with my XAH was very messed up from relatively early on, both when he was a dry drunk for 15 years, and also when he was actively drinking. I remember using sex to appease him, to maybe make him feel better so that I wouldn't suffer his angry outbursts the next day. I manipulated things by using sex to fix my dysfunctional situation. It was NOT healthy at all.

Today, I am in a new relationship and the sex is just a nice aside to the healthy relationship we are developing. We enjoy life, go to concerts, hike, go out to eat, help each other with things, give of our time to each other, and serve each other and that includes in the bedroom. It's a trusting partnership and we talk about things when issues arise, like adults do, and there is absolute acceptance and honesty. I don't need to beat around the bush like I did with my X and I'm not afraid of being chastised for a sexual hang up or for a difficulty I am having. With this new guy, I feel accepted and cared for and I find that these things increase our intimacy. So, although we've only been dating a few months, I can see the difference in a healthy relationship vs the alcoholic dysfunction I lived in before.

I swore I would never have sex again once my divorce was over. I swore I hated it and that I would never be that vulnerable again. What I found was that the problem wasn't the actual act of sex, but it was the level of trust and vanished intimacy that was plaguing my marriage. I can actually say today that I enjoy sex but I also know that it's not the end all be all to a fulfilling relationship. Communication and honesty and trust are key and if those things are gone, then the sex falls apart as a result. Just my .02C

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Life many others, our sex life was awesome in the beginning. Best I ever had and very intimate, fun and exciting.

As the disease progressed in my AH, sex became more of a chore - the biggest changing factor was the intimacy. I agree with Green Eyes - when I could no longer trust my AH, my desire for sex diminished. If I can't share all of my life with someone, one part only (sex) seems to loose it's importance and flavor.

He has since moved out of the bedroom, had a couple of heart attacks and chooses the bottle over me and our sons. He's afraid to have sex as he's afraid to die....but the bottle continues - this crazy disease and the crazy thinking it creates.

I too have hope for a well-rounded intimate relationship again at some point in my future. For now, I am content with working on me, learning to love me and working this program to the best of my ability.

Great topic and great posts....makes me think more about 'it'!!

PennyJenny010115 · Member

I find sex with my AH when he is sober to be unemotional and unsatisfying. I have lost trust in him due to abuse, mental, physical, and sexual. I find sex with him while he's drunk to be disgusting and terrifying.

I loved what a previous poster said about good sex being between two healthy people who are willing to be vulnerable and non judgmental. That would be beautiful and I too hope to have that someday. I have to get the strength to leave my marriage first, as there are not many situations in which I would be okay with cheating.

SpookyMulder · Veteran Member

So very many interesting experiences. I certainly relate, as I said before, to the "lack of trust, lack of libido" thing. And to top it off, my XAW would ALWAYS get mad at me the next day. I always chalked this up to the sexual molestation she had been through and tried to be a supportive and soothing partner, but nothing worked,

So there would be emotional bombing before and certainly after, but as so many have said, it was the only time I had "real" intimacy in my life at that point, so I continued to want it. ANd I felt like I loved the person beneath the turmoil/disease. I'm sure that this disease has messed a lot of people up on this level, and it's true, we don't ever really talk about it, but it may be at the core of our vulnerability. I'm glad it turned out to be a popular topic!!!!

gabigail · Senior Member

This has been a subject that has been troubling me...I'm glad you started it! Now I'm not feeling so "awkward"!!

This has been something that has in the past probably 7 or so years that has been a source of contention between me and my A, and I used to think that it was all because of me, but now I'm more realizing it's more about the alcohol. We haven't been intimate in 2 years, and we hardly ever kiss anymore. I was blamed all the time for not touching anymore, or pushing my A away. When we were first together, it was hot....and we would always end up in bed. After marriage, it was still kinda that way, but not as frequent. But still good. But then, it was obnoxious- I'd be working on something or talking about a serious subject that would not put me in the mood, or was exhausted from working all day, and it was like jr. high trying to touch me, and I wasn't in the mood at that time...so then the pouting and the guilt would start (you used to let me touch you and now you push me away ). This was a constant. Then when we would touch/have sex, the guilt would come back (you finally let me touch you...you should let me all the time like we used to). I was really getting sick of it. I need more than just touching...helping me out at home, talking nicely to me and that kind of thing. Not trying to jump me as soon as I get home...you get the picture. Plus I felt guilty all the time, trying to be intimate when I really wasn't in it...and having physical female problems that was affecting my libido. Plus, there were times that I would try to make things right and make a romantic evening and have things to make the evening special with hinting that we could be intimate further, but then she was "too tired" or would pass out. This is before I knew how bad the drinking was. And it was heartbreaking. Still is. There was a time about 2 1/2 years ago where I suspected cheating (finding an empty condom box is a dead giveaway since we don't use them) followed by the lies....and I still haven't gotten over that. And I did find unused condoms but still the lies. That's all I've found, but it's enough for me to be suspicious as we have no reason ever to use condoms as we are women... We really haven't been intimate since. I can't trust her. The cheating thing has eaten me up to the point that even though I would like to start things over, it really seems like it's so dead anymore that you can't revive it. What's funny are the conversations about other people (I know so and so haven't had sex in years and so and so flirts with someone else all the time).

So, can you really share intimacy with an active alcoholic, especially when you feel anyone or anything else is better than you....or sex with you....
I know my answer.

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow my sex life with my exAH of 15 years was so very messed up on both our sides and even early. It started out hot and heavy, but eventually it was like I had to earn it and not rock the boat for him to have sex with me. I was molested as a child and we both saw sex as love which was our first error. It was the only form of touching and intimacy he gave me and he knew how to lord it over me. Now with counseling, al-anon and my sponsor I realize the difference between intimacy and sex and how in a healthy loving and respectful relationship, everything is so much better for me. I don't need the manipulation and chaos any longer. Serenity and being in love with a healthy person is the nicest combo I have ever found, the last year and I wouldn't exchange it for anything. Sending you love and support to you all on your journey's!

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene