The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
One of my least favorite things about any AA and alanon combined meetings I have attended is when the alcoholics stand up and say "we don't do this to hurt you" and it seems to me like that is supposed to be getting them off the hook FOR hurting all those they know and love.. Well maybe they didn't do it to hurt us at first but you can not unlearn what you have learned so once they are told how much they are hurting us, they are choosing to hurt us again. Even if unable to stop, I feel it would be more correct for them to say... I understood how much this was hurting you and I choose to do this anyway because of this disease I couldn't relate to your pain.
Even sober alcoholics seem horribly lacking in the empathy department and such a huge part of love and family is empathy.
Well, glad, I've been friends with recovering As and know some on our board who I do think are empathetic, so, I haven't had the same experiences as you when it comes to knowing all sober alcoholics who are horribly lacking in the empathy department?
I've never heard what you've heard in open AA meetings either. I've just heard speakers talk about the horrible things they did and what helped them stop doing it?
On the other hand, I have also experienced the lack of empathy you might be talking about, too, in relationship to newly recovering or non-sober As. I can remember racing home from work to attend to personal matters when my son was living with me and newly recovering many years ago. He wanted me to take him to the bank to cash his paycheck. I had to put in a load of clothes in the washer in the basement. I caught my sandal on something on the carpeted treads and fell down the steps to the bottom landing. I couldn't move for a bit - not sure if I'd broken anything, my body in shock and my stomach queasy. My son stood over me complaining when I wouldn't get up right away. "Why????? Why does this always happen to me when I need something?" "Honey, I think I can stand but I'll need your help." "Gripe, gripe, gripe, curse words, more curse words," as he helped me get back to my feet. I can remember looking at him thinking, "He really doesn't see me." I felt compassion for him strange as that might sound. He truly was blind to some of his reality which included his Mom falling down the stairs and getting hurt. He really didn't show lack of compassion or empathy to hurt me. There was just something lacking in him then. No amount of hurt or anger would have helped him see or feel what he truly couldn't see or feel.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 26th of January 2015 03:48:40 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 26th of January 2015 03:49:16 PM
I remember feeling this way at the first aa convention i went to. I felt a bit bitter about the whole whoopeedoo were sober now and the big cheers they gave each other. I came to see that the alcoholic and the wife or husband have two totally different perspectives. So i spent 20 yrs with my ex, while he was pretty oblivious to much of the drama i was sober. In a way its not possible for them to know what we went through, how it felt, no matter how much they want to know or how much we explained. Youve got to live it to know. The same is true for us, we dont ruly know what it feels like to be the alcoholic..
Its taken some time but the last convention i went to i loved the celebrations, i felt more in it together type of feeling but i think this is more to do with my own recovery and what ive learned about the disease. I feel empathy and a connection towards aa and alcoholics now. We are all suffering from the same thinking disease it just manifested itself in slightly different ways.
Glad I think the statement by alcoholics is all a matter of semantics. For an alcoholic to say that they didn't do this to hurt us or were unaware that they are hurting us is no doubt very true. The disease of alcoholism boxes each of us in a small world where we can only see a short distance.
My son would say I'm only hurting myself-and I thought: "possibly but by watching you hurt yourself it is killing me."
Al-Anon teaches us that we are responsible for our own feelings and it is our choice to have a relationship with an alcoholic. If we have unrealistic expectations of someone, is it their fault that they have not lived up to our expectations. If we are responsible for our own feelings, then how can we blame the alcoholic for feeling poorly.
If the Al-Anon statement:"You can be happy whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not", is true, then we are responsible for our own feelings, taking care of ourselves and using constructive tools to live by. Doing all that, we are set free from our own destructive behaviors.
I guess I would say that our pre-Al-Anon behavior was probably just is painful and destructive as the alcoholics. When I knew better I did better.
The slogan of QTIP comes from alanon. So basically, it sounds like you get annoyed when alcoholics say it or refer to themselves when saying it?
This is not to say I don't understand your post. I do think a lot of sober alcoholics believe they are "program experts' and they don't have the alanon ESH that they think they do. This has applied to me MANY times. I had to calm my ego down and listen to Betty, Grateful, Jerry...several others and remember that just because I know a lot of AA, does NOT automatically qualify me to give good ESH on someone's alanon journey.
I also think you have hit upon a gender disparity as well. I think MEN tend to be less empathic and most of those alcoholics that stand up and say those true, but obtuse, and ill timed things are male alcoholics I bet. Just guessing.
Anyhow, I actually do appreciate this thread. I know I've done it before...though like to think not in at totally unempathic way...for example, If someone was crying over their spouses relapse and the awful wreckage, I would not pipe up and be like "HEY GUYS! WE don't do this on purpose!" I would expect to get a brick thrown at me. I have had the experience of not fitting in at straight men's meetings either. I stopped going to one because I felt like all the guys there were knuckle dragging cretins (horribly judgmental I know). So yeah...I hang around here...relating to you guys but the alcoholic side also. I'm sorry you've had this experience. I'm also sorry for the folks that I may have done it to myself.
Not looking for anyone to say "Oh but you are empathic Mark/Pinkchip. You are not like those ones..." I know I am empathic, but I also know I miss the bus completely sometimes. A work in progress....
It's the detachment from his action and responsibility that I found/find so disturbing. Denial runs deep and with many protective coping skills. All I can do is focus on myself, take my inventory, and work my program as honestly as possible. Progress not perfection.
I think what bugs me most with active As or newly sobering isn't that they don't see the harm they have done in some cases. Nope! What bugs me is when some are mad because we did what we needed to do to take care of ourselves and some resent it. That's the hard thing for me. Something on the order of "Why did you tell me I couldn't live there anymore just because I was smoking crack in the bedroom, stealing from you, coming in drunk and threatening you and bringing people in to the house I'd known an hour? You're just a witch, you know that? A witch!!" Yup! That's the bigger thing for me.
I'm trying not to strengthen the formation of a stereotype bandwagon here, but they don't usually say it that way, they are usually justifying. Most of them don't say that exact thing, it gets justified instead. "Why did you tell me I couldn't live there anymore just because I was sometimes bringing friends home - they were all cool, just had some problems, just like us, I mean, who doesn't have problems? And I needed the money, you wouldn't go to the bank machine one day, remember? Of course I was smoking crack in the bedroom - you wouldn't want me to go out and do it with a bunch of lowlifes, would you? You just complained that you don't like those people!"
Which of course is just that much more infuriating. If they would say it like the truth, at least it would probably steel some of us codependents into action, rather than buying into the justifications.
Until I remember the justifications I did for her. "She'll quit soon. She's had a hard day, I don't even really know if it's the alcohol getting her, or life getting her on the alcohol. She just likes a glass with dinner, I just don't like it when it turns into a whole bottle." "She can't take the car out, she's passed out".
BTW When my wife was active, she was all about justification and lack of empathy. And so was I. But now, in general, I'm much less empathetic as a sober person than my recovering wife. I'm working on the empathy myself, she has a lot more than I do when we are both in our natural state.
Thanks everyone.. I think you all got what I was saying...it's like someone blew up a building because they liked fireworks and then said I didn't mean to harm anyone who was burned in the fire... it's a cop out of types... I don't care what a person meant they knew darn well they were hurting others and if they didn't they should have- not focusing on me I know ...remembering a conference where everyone clapped at this obviously selfish reportedly sober for some years alcoholic... didn't care for the "free pass" she got. al anon's are all about being accountable for our actions or I am, anyway thanks for your patience with the post right or wrong that is my feelings tonight and seems like we may have covered it.
IF you have more... correct me I'm open to that.. probably be something I "get " later on but progress not perfection.
-- Edited by glad on Monday 26th of January 2015 09:43:35 PM
You shared honestly and openly, Glad. I'm glad you did. You also helped me open up on something I've never said until tonight. I've still got some work to do, too. (((Glad)))
It's a good thread. It made me think. "I didn't mean to hurt you" may be true for the A, but that does not mean they get to skip step 8 and 9. Best to be - "I didn't mean to hurt you but I did....and it was unacceptable." As far as knowing that the A doesn't do these things to personally hurt others....sometimes that may be helpful to know so that family members know the disease doesn't care about them even if the A probably does. It could take the sting out of it, but not when it is the A who is saying it to shirk responsibility.
Recently my exAH was talking about our past together and wanted to assure me, with the 'excessive drinking and everything that goes with it' (in our case, car accidents, debt, infidelities and drug use?!) he never set out to hurt me. I know for me the only reason I heard that statement with any level of compassion on my part is because of Alanon. I believe my ex was always doing the best he can, and sometimes that was someone completely debilitated by alcohol addiction. I believe he never meant to hurt me. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I was hurt. I guess I am saying that now I don't hear those types of things and feel outraged. It's more like--well, that's all he can offer and I am not looking for more from him.
Glad I just remembered that when I first entered alanon and attended AA Anniversary meetings with my hubby, I became enraged with their laughter and seeming lack of understanding as they related their "Stories". I knew the pain of those experiences from the other side and found nothing to laugh at. Even today I have a difficult hearing these stories.
