The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I understand about boundaries in general, but in some situation, I don't get how that general principle is applied.
If someone was breaking into a neighbor's house, and loading all their stuff into their van, I would call the cops. I would not say "None of my business - no one is being abused."
Why is it viewed as none of my business if one family member is stealing from another disabled family members disability check?
I understand the part about examining myself and not do anything out of resentment, and be sure I get the facts first. AND considering unintended consequences! But I get the impression that even if I knew for an absolute fact that he was doing this, and it i was not about resentment, many of you would still be saying MYOB, unless the person was being beaten or starved.
If the person being ripped off understood what was going on, but choosing not to turn him in, I could understand the MYOB attitude. But we are talking about someone who can not speak for herself, or even understand the situation.
I am not at a point where I need to decide what to do right now, but this situation might arise again and I want to get this principle straight in my head before that situation comes up.
The Al-Anon program to include meetings, Conference Approved Literature, finding a sponsor and working the steps, spending time with people in my home group and later participation in MIP has all helped me understand myself and learn what was mine and wasn't mine to do in situations involving all sorts of people from all walks in life. Boundaries are moveable and not firm fast rules in my experience. What might be right for me to do in one situation may not work in another. By learning the principles of the program - and I'm still learning - I was better able to create boundaries that were right for me and that I could live with. The program might help you with that, too? We suggest 6 meetings before you decide if the program is right for you. The World Service Office of Al-Anon website can help you find meetings in your area if you are interested in attending. We also have on-line meetings here twice a day. The information about the meetings can be found on the left at the top of our board. We also have a sticky at the top of the message board that lets you know what the program can do for you if you work it. Being in the program might be a big help to you in determining the best way to be a supportive aunt, sister, daughter by making yourself your first priority? It was a big help for me.
Hi Screaming, If you believe that reporting this incident is in the best interest of the child and then without a doubt I would take the action and let go the results. I am puzzled as to why you continue to search for advice on the subject.
Drawing a boundary is an individual process. Al-Anon does that tell us how to feel or think or what actions to take. We are given certain tools that will enable us to make our decisions based spiritual principles. As far as taking the action to report misuse of funds the Al-Anon tools that I would use would be to examine my motives, place principles above personalities my own and my brothers, listen to the small voice within and act. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
I think one of the differences is that it is so easy to get involved in family members' lives and to try to influence and control things that basically we have no control over. This is something that many thousands and millions of people try to do, and the result is often turmoil. Because actions in families are not very clear-cut, motives are muddled, resentments develop, people get to be at odds with each other - the whole emotional landscape is very complicated.
That is a difference between family situations and calling the cops on burglars down the street. Seeing the burglars, you are emotionally detached, it's straightforward, and the cops will handle it or not handle it. You have no history with the burglars, you have no long years of emotions about them that may influence your thinking or your thinking about the outcome, and you never have to deal with the situation after that phone call.
Some possible complications of turning in a family member are: What if the family member is furious with you? How will that impact things in the future? Does that help or hinder the ultimate objective (here, protecting a vulnerable person)? Will the agency take appropriate action? Often they do not take the action we want. The stakes or too low, or it's too hard to prove, or they simply don't agree that the situation is a violation, however convinced we are. So then there are all the down sides of having gone to the agency, with none of the benefits. I think we always have to ask: What are the chances that the outcome we want will happen?
I think in general we all tend to think that we know what's best for other people. Often we are right. But often we are wrong. That's one reason Al-Anon urges us to think "What's my motive?" and to stay on our own side of the street. Our anger often blinds us to the complications of the situation. That can lead us to try the frustrating task of attempting to control other people's actions. If we actually could control them, life would be a lot simpler. I think if we could control them, we'd have found a way by now.
If you truly feel something should be done, then it's reasonable to go ahead and do it. These are just some of the things to think over while contemplating.
Hey screaming.
While we do give each other feedback and sometimes help each other weigh up our choices here, we are basically an al-anon group and we work mostly within the parameters of that program.
I may have missed it but I haven't seen you mention al-anon in any of your posts and I am unclear as to whether you attend meetings or have an interest in or knowledge of the program?
I can't possibly know whether you should or shouldn't take any sort of action in relation to your brother and his daughter but I do know that you seem to be frustrated and upset and feel that an injustice is being done and I hope you can find a way to make peace with the situation.
If you are interested, then attending meetings and working the al-anon steps can really help you to achieve clarity about your own boundaries and not feel that you need to "check" them with anyone else. I think if you want to discuss your situation on an al-anon forum it would be a good idea to gain an understanding of the al-anon principals and decide if it is right for you or not.
But we cannot offer you legal advice and I feel uncomfortable with the fact that you seem to be asking for a "green light" to take action on a situation that none of us can possibly make a judgement about and in fact by asking us to do that you are asking us to ignore the principals of the very program we are here to discuss! I am absolutely not trying to attack you, but we practice a program that very much encourages focusing on ourselves and letting others live their lives as they wish so it is not a good place to seek approval for involving yourself in someone else's business, do you see what I mean?
I do sense some confusion here because boundaries are about what YOU will and will not allow for your own personal SELF; you can't have boundaries for another person although I guess you can model them for other people; for example my daughter has many unstable and confusing people in her family and I hope that by working hard on myself and learning to know and defend my own boundaries I can model for her what serenity and integrity looks like. Of course I understand that is also difficult with your niece as she is disabled but you cannot "have boundaries for her", nor for your mother or your brother.
Anyway I hear that you love your niece and your family and you want to find a way to have them all get what they want and need. Most of us here feel the same way about our loved ones and that is why we are here and in the rooms of al-anon, because we cannot force people to do things the way we want them to, even if we really are sure we know what is best for them and we have all been driven nuts by that fact, so much so that we need a program and the support of other like-minded people. Al-anon can help you find peace and calm and clarity and I hope you will consider attending some meetings and giving it a go.
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
"I am not at a point where I need to decide what to do right now, but this situation might arise again and I want to get this principle straight in my head before that situation comes up."
That statement is in fact discovery after consideration. It is an "I" statement meaning that we are self focusing on how and what we are seeing and what we have decided to do or not do about it. This is how I learned to "arrive" at sanity myself. I learned how to get "perspective" before reacting which put things in order for me and I relieved myself of the drama and trauma that comes with reaction rather than response. The part that told me I had more work to do regarding these types of situations is the part after "but this situation might arise again". That but always used to negate the discovery I have made and try to keep me involved with old thinking and behaviors...my habits which didn't work. I learned how not to project and fortune tell and to stay in the now rather than the past and the future and I got rest and peace of mind and serenity. Now is the time to work on the subject of detachment and boundaries free of what he or she or they may or may not be doing and when are they going to call you to fix something that may not be broken. Of course you are free to react or respond to your own thinking and also free to own the consequences.
Thank you, Mattie and Missmeliss, for some great clarification. That really helped.
Betty, I am posting this because although I got a lot of advice about slowing down, thinking, considering consequences and issues like that, but nobody directly addressed my analogy of a neighbors house being broken into. I felt like I would understand a lot better if I re-asked the general question about this principle apart from the details in this particular situation.
As far as my connection with AlAnon, my ex was an addict and I was very involved in AlAnon for years. But that was many years ago. 4 years ago, when SIL was discovered to be an addict, I returned to AlAnon for a while, but haven't been back in years. I just recently pulled out my trusty old ODAAT and started reading again and came to this site because I knew I needed some help. I have been meaning to go to meetings again but their hours in this small town are inconvenient so I keep putting it off.
Jerry, this is still a very fluid and un predictable situation. I just meant I needed to get the that clear before any similar issue arises again, if it does. I know I need to take it as it comes and not act like I have a crystal ball.
Glad you pulled out your old ODAT book, Barbie, and are open to returning to the meetings. We have on-line meetings here, too, twice a day for those who can't get to f2f meetings or want to supplement the face to face meetings with on-line participation.
I dont think any of us would be saying myob if someone is stealing from a disabled person and knew it. That would be pretty amoral in my eyes. We would need to do the right thing. That would be report this to the proper people, be it social services or the police. Im not sure where you get the idea we would turn a blind eye, especially against someone whos vulnerable. In fact if anything, us, here have had to make sime pretty difficult decisions, we dont turn a blind eye to anything. Alanons taught me to be more responsible so i would do what needs to be done in this situation.
-- Edited by el-cee on Monday 26th of January 2015 12:26:32 PM
Most of what you've asked in this post was answered in the other one, Barbie. I can remember being so upset sometimes that I couldn't really hear what other people were saying that really did directly answer my questions. When that happened, I began to understand that within me were the answers I was seeking. Listening within could lead me to do what was right for me to do. Al-Anon simply helped me learn how to quiet my mind and go inside and listen there unfettered by whirling thoughts that kept my emotions spinning and that I truly wasn't alone. Other people had had and were having experiences and thoughts similar to mine. I don't know if this is what is happening for you? I do know that it did happen for me and can if I don't work the program daily. I hope that if you are experiencing some churning emotions, that you'll treat yourself to going to meetings and coming back here, too. Like Jerry, I'm in support of you, too.
I will re-read the last thread I posted to see if I just wasn't listening, or if I was being distracted by the more complicated nature of that discussion, or if I just needed it rephrased for it to 'click' but either way, I appreciate the discussion.
Often, very often my mind spins about certain things, when I turn it over to higher power- try my best to sweep it out of my mind for the moment and focus on me... bam within a very short time my mind will come to peace with a possible solution.
From my experience working with children and adults with disabilities, the disabled person often knows the general idea of what is going on- (even though they may have reached out to me repeatedly complaining about the certain situation with tears even) , when I've gotten involved I've ended up being asked by social services agencies to get overly involved- become a out and out advocate for the person...then the disabled person denys the abuse or plays it down, the social services agency says it's the disabled persons choice and I've just invested a great deal of emotional and literal time... only for things to remain the same. I can't control what goes on, nor can I control someone elses choices and disabled people have choices too.
Just like it is a non disabled person's choice to give their money away, so is it a disabled person's choice! Plus one can never fully understand another families ways.
If I had it to do over again I would report the possible abuse using only the facts I've first hand observed and then leave it to higher power.
Believe me I've been in a very similar situation recently. Anytime you care more than the person your trying to help, your on the wrong track.
Barbie: No matter which thread you read, I can't help but wonder if there is now so much experience/strength/hope shared with you at each thread that it will only lend itself to confusing you more than helping you find your own answers for the reality of your life now? Nobody here can love you or your family more than you love them. It doesn't help in my experience, to keep looking for answers on an issue that has been stated and restated? Whatever you choose to do, of course, is up to you. I just hope you can experience some peace and rest about this matter for your sake. Sending you support and understanding.
I was going to state just about the same things missmeliss had posted above. Showing up to al-anon face to face meetings and working my al-anon program has helped me not need to seek approval to do things that I feel I need to do. I have found my serenity in the steps and in my sponsor loving me enough until I loved and trusted myself enough. I hear your frustration and can only say you have to be true to yourself. At the end of the day you have to look at yourself in the mirror and I want to be a good role model for my kids also. I ask myself many times if something has me worked up how important is it? And sometimes I realize it is very important and I act on it and sometimes I decide it's not very important or imminent and I let it go. No one can or should tell you what is right for you to do, only you know your answers and the scenario playing out. There are many al-anon tools and slogans that helped me in my times of distress and I hope you can dive into your recovery program and find your answers. Sending you love and support!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
That would be pretty amoral in my eyes. We would need to do the right thing. That would be report this to the proper people, be it social services or the police
wow el-cee .. when I was reading this thread pondering the infamous what ifs .. what would I do scenario .. I remember my sponsor in early recovery .. say .. take the next right action no matter how we feel .. think the response just hit the nail on the head for me .. no advice but just seeing the epiphany of the profound insight jump out at me .. never did quite see it this way ...
always learned walls are stiff rigid strict unchanging .. boundaries are flexible changeable and for me; they don't attempt to control .. etc .. they keep me emotionally and mentally sane; serene .. sometimes others around me as well .. there's another saying .. if it's good for me or would be; it's good for others or someone else ..
never advice; only shares of experience .. glad I stopped in here ..
Lots of great discussion. You will take the right action because the program tools are still with you....follow your intuition, then let go unless there is another right action for you to take.
Thanks. I am working to redevelop my intuition. Emotion kind of creates a static that makes it hard to tell the difference between my own will and intuition. But I am getting there. Thank you to all of you!
