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My brother is "renting" a house from our mother but hasn't paid a cent in years. His daughter is disabled. Now that she is 18, part of her SS income is required by SS regulations to go to rent, or the amount she gets will be docked. her share of the rent (that he won't pay) would be $133 and she really needs the money. But he claims she isn't getting any SS income. I believe he is lying.
i am considering I will tell him I will call the SS office and basically tell on him if he doesn't start paying. But that doesn't seem to be enough. he should not be the representative payee, deciding where her money goes if he is using it to live off himself. I am considering fighting to be the representative payee.
it is all more complicated than that, even. But we will start there.
Hello. Welcome to MIP. Many of us here are in the Al-Anon program for friends and family members of loved ones whose drinking troubles us. You don't say if your brother drinks and it bothers you? If so, we recommend attending Al-Anon to learn more about the disease of alcoholism and how it affects those of us who love a person who drinks to excess and may or may not be alcoholics. In this program, we find people who have experienced some of the same things we have experienced in our families of origin where alcoholism has played a subtle or very obvious part in our lives. We learn to separate the disease from the person we love. We learn how to put the focus on ourselves and what we are thinking, feeling and doing that complicates our lives and creates dis-ease that is painful and confusing. We suggest attending at least six meetings before we decide if Al-Anon is right for us. We also suggest not making any major changes in our lives unless we or our children are in some kind of life threatening or otherwise dangerous situations. I can't say what I would do in your situation. I'm not in it. I can say that if I try to meddle in other people's business, I'm going to be mighty upset because nothing will go the way I hoped and much can go in a way that will make matters worse and not better.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 21st of January 2015 08:14:09 AM
The standard advice of Al-Anon is not to cause a crisis nor to prevent one. The way I see it, reporting him would cause a crisis, so that's a concern. No question that what he is doing is not good or above board. I wonder if you can really prevent or control it, though. Sometimes the least crazy-making path is to "let go and let God." I hope you can take good care of yourself.
I could only see taking that action if your niece was being abused in some way. Not sure if her disability is mental or physical, but petentially your brother is a decent caretaker. I don't know. To take that from your niece or interfere with it only off of disagreement of funding is not enough. There may be, and probably is more to this story...assuming your brother is an A. Even still, that doesn't mean your neice is being abused. She's 18. Maybe she wants it this way. I can't tell from what you wrote.
Screaming Barbie.... funny picture in a munch-esque kind of way.
Welcome aboard! I don't know the whole situation but. no. I wouldn't turn him in. I would examine my motives and try to figure out exactly why I feel so angry as to consider it. Its your parents house so I'm sure there's bound to be a whole lot of emotional things going on for you under the surface. Keep coming back.
It isn't our parents house. mom went into debt moving a mobile home out and digging up a septic system. $25,000 into debt, not counting repairs and all the other ways he helps him.
But now the rent thing is mostly not a problem. He just paid $100 for January and $100 for February. But, although the rent is what brought this to a head, it is not the main issue any more, at least not to me. My neice has autism and can't talk. She could use a tablet with communication app. When I crunch the numbers, the money left over after she pays her fair share of bills would give her enough money to buy such a tablet one month and put an app on it the next month. And she wears horrible shoes and ratty clothes.
My ex was an addict. My brother is not, although his ex is an addict. (I could swear there is an AlAnon gene running through our family). But the comment about separating the disease from the person we love applies here. Although there is no diagnosis, there is something seriously wrong with him. maybe bipolar. Although he is very destructive to everyone around him, he doesn't mean to be. But I still feel my niece needs protecting, even though he has no intent to hurt her. He just doesn't see what he is doing to her, by taking her money. He delude himself into thinking it is for her own good because he needs gas money to go to work. But he doesn't see that he needs to drastically change what he is doing if he needs to take from his disabled daughter to put gas in the tank.
This is where the slogan "Think" came in well for me while my sponsor was giving me one of his "Don't React". Reacting was a default behavior for me and I did it all the time whether invited to or not. I the enabler played the enabler 24/7. I had to learn how to slow down and think and to ask myself questions like, "What do I want out of this"? "What part of this is mine"? and others like "What has my HP asked me to do with this"? That caused me to slow down....a lot...and to start practicing patience and asking for help like you have here. What will the consequences be if you get involved and if you come to the position that you are so sure of what you want to do..."could you be wrong"...if you are, besides your ego...who stands to get hurt? ((((hugs))))
It must be extremely difficult to see your niece not having things you would want her to have. Others posted good responses. I can add more of the same; I know how tempting it is take flight into action. I still practice stopping myself, checking my motives and if it's the best way to achieve results. So many times I felt certain I had the facts, but the truth was that I didn't and if I had been aware I would have chosen a different course.
I am a person who believes that if a child or disabled adult is being abused or neglected by their caretakers and I know about it, it is also my responsibility to take the proper steps with the proper agencies to report it. Adult protective services is set up on a confidential basis in our state. I don't know about yours. If you believe that your niece is being abused or neglected, that is an option to consider. If she isn't being abused and your brother is her caretaker, then although you don't agree with how he does care for her, it might be an option to let go in this situation? If your Mom is supposed to be paid rent by your brother, it appears that that would be between your brother and your Mom.
You also state that both you and your brother were married to addicts and that you think alcoholism is a thread that runs through your family. That is a very astute observation since alcoholism is a family disease that usually results in some family members either becoming alcoholics or marrying alcoholics. Al-Anon can be a big help to both you and your brother because you have both been affected by your ex's diseases and perhaps the disease of alcoholism in your family? We can't live with the disease of alcoholism or drug addiction without being hurt by that disease. We don't always recognize that we have been harmed by the disease, but meetings start to show us in what ways we have been hurt and in what ways we can heal gently from the affects of someone else's substance abuse. The only qualification for membership in the program is the disease of alcoholism in a friend or family member.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:22:15 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:24:08 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:25:05 PM
I am stopping to think. That is why I am here. I am lucky MLK day was the day after the conversation when he claimed she wasn't on SS or I might have called the office before I could get much of a chance to think.
As far as "what if I am wrong" what I would say to SS would not cause any problems if he is. Telling the truth. I would not say he is misappropriating her funds. I would say she needs her social security income so my mother can get the rent money she needs. If she is not on SS, as my brother claims, that would cause no problems. But he she is already on SS and he is lying, and then that would alert them to the fact he is not using the money correctly.
My mother is 82 and somewhat confused. Not senile, but her memory is frighteningly horrible at times. As long as she understands the situation, I am fine with her making her own decisions, but she definitely needs me to clarify things or she would not be making decisions with all the facts. It is difficult knowing when to step in and when to step back, but I am confident there are times I need to step in. But if she is content with $100 a month for a 4 bedroom double wide, that is her decision.
The only addicts we have had in our family were married into our family, but there have been quite a few of those. I went to AlAnon for years but haven't been in quite a while. When I found my brothers wife was an addict, I was hopeful he would join AlAnon and learn self honesty, but he went to one and only one meeting.
As far as whether my neice is being neglected, that depends. If she has money to get something she really needs, (a communication device so she could learn to tell us if her ahead is hurting) but he takes that money so he can avoid getting another job, that seems rather abusive. But he certainly doesn't ever hit her, or starve her.
I have a non verbal autistic child. I hate to think people judge the love I have for him on the shoes he wears and his clothes?something low functioning autistic children themselves don't care about unless its a sensory issue. I'd like to think if someone Was so concerned about his quality of life they'd ask the person who cares for him what they can do to help. I do not hear any compassion or empathy in you in regard to your brother or your niece.what would the likelihood of your interference be for her sense of security and really who benefits? I wish you the courage to truly examine your own heart in this matter. I understand sibling frustration. He probably is a lazy bum. But he might not be. Either way it isn't really your problem in my view.
I am sorry you don't hear the compassion. I struggle to have it for my brother but my compassion for my niece is intense! I am practically her mother these days! I have her on weekends and look forward to summer so I can have her more. Most of the clothes she wears were bought by me. But inexpensive good fitting shoes that's she will tolerate are harder to find. She currently has only two pair and those are ones I bought for her. And once she leaves my house, I don't know if those shoes will ever be seen again. The point is that I am not a casual observer from the outside. I am deeply involved in her life?
-- Edited by Screaming Barbie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 12:29:39 AM
I am not judging his love for her. He loves her deeply. But denial runs deep in that man. He can rip a person off and convince himself he is doing that person a favor. He rewrites history to lessen the guilt he would feel if he was honest with himself about things he has done. So in spite of his love for her, he is still taking money from her and therefore denying her some things she really needs.
Hi Barbie You have received many excellent suggestions and all I wanted to add is that throughout this discussion you have repeatedly indicated that you are concerned because he only pays your Mom $100 for rent on the home she owns and provides to him. The other issues regarding a writing tablet and clothes are more or less after thoughts. I know a few parents who allow there children to live rent free in their second homes.
You say Mom is confused and has expended $25,000 in the process. If Mom is not complaining and he is working to support this child how much additional money would you think fair for him to pay? If you called and Mom was awarded more money , you state that he would need to get another job. With a autistic child then this would require an additional caretaker that would cost more money or more of your time The ramifications are endless.
I would really check my motives on this. I do think the writing table is important and if I called, I would inquire about coverage for such an item .
I appreciate the advice. You have all given me a lot to think about. Specifically, you have forced me to articulate the situation and I now realize I must discuss more of this with my brother. He has successfully made communication difficult, and as a result, there are some serious gaps in what I have said to him on this issue.
As far as my motives, they were initially to get my mother at least a portion of the rent SHE wants and has a right to. But the more I researched social security, the more I got outraged over what that money could be doing for my niece but isn't because he is STEALING the money. Now that she has turned 18 the money should not be commingled with family money. It is specifically supposed to go to her care.
The communication device is not a small deal! Imagine not being able to speak, read or write. Your communication is limited to what pictures are in the communication photo album you have on hand. This communication app can have a practically limitless number of images and they can be organized in ways that are much easier for her to access than just thumbing through pages of an album. Also, she rips the photo album and the album itself so we struggle to keep photos in there. We kind of wrote off the idea of this tablet as an unaffordable item, but now I know how much money she is getting, I realize it is not an impossible dream. It is very much within her reach!
My mother is VERY upset about his financial situation and the fact that he doesn't pay rent. She has already stated that she would be more than willing to provide more babysitting if he would just get a decent job. She is sick of enabling his bad decisions just because he doesn't want to punch a time clock. His other daughter has expressed the same frustration, although I don't know if she would be willing babysit more. I would certainly be happy to increase my time with her. I already have her for the whole weekend, more when school is out.
So, while the rent was the initial issue I would certainly say the other points are lot more than just an afterthought.
-- Edited by Screaming Barbie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 01:50:57 PM
No I wouldnt. This would be my mothers issue to handle and I wouldnt want to get in the middle of family affairs and cause myself chaos. I would get to a meeting, make some Alanon calls and work whatever step was necessary to get the focus back on myself and my recovery. There are two types of business, my business and none of my business and this would be classified as none of my business.
__________________
I needed these behaviors in my past they helped me survive I'm finding new and better ways to not just survive but thrive
I would, as karma13 and hotrood suggested, not make other's business, your business. This is what comes to mind concerning your situation, it is a portion of the Al Anon Prayer ....
"God I can not control or change my friends or loved ones, so I release them into Your care for your loving hands to do with as You will. Just keep me loving and free from judging them. If they need changing, God, You'll have to do it: I can't. Just make me willing and ready to be of service to do my best".
Hope this helps you screaming barbie .... as it has greatly helped me.
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
No one can stop you from doing what you want to do. I hear you have issues towards your brother and are willing to use your disabled niece to address them however you attempt to justify it here or elsewhere. You are her aunt not her mother not her father. She isn't abused, he loves her deeply but you seem determined to insert your motives before her welfare. There are many options which support a healthy relationship with niece. Giving without expectation or hidden agendas is one and if that's too masochistic you remove yourself from the difficulty. Simple. I do not as a parent, human being, or alanoner view you overstepping the boundary of aunty as heroic or necessary.
Aquamom, you are not my brother! Stop taking this so personally! And do NOT claim I am using my niece to get back at my brother! That is VERY offensive! I want what is best for her! Even if I am wrong, that is all I really want! Yes, he loves her! But did you miss the part where I said he might be bipolar? (Of course, I am referring to untreated bipolar) He makes a lot of bad decisions concerning her that I largely stay out of because of boundaries. But I am having difficulty understanding the idea that this should be one of those issues. (More on that in a different post) No, I am not her mother. But does a person have to be the biological mother to love a child as their own? Because I do love Arianna as my own! I am much more than just her aunt. My relationship with her is much like the noncustodial parent who gets visitation every weekend. I have dealt with her melt downs and biting and spitting - and those dreaded poop-n-smears (which she has mostly outgrown recently) and I only end up loving her more! One afternoon she bit the crap out of me, and I ended up bragging about how she managed to use her few words to offer the most sincere apology I have ever gotten! She is my child even if she is not my daughter!
So please stop acting like I am some person from the outside treating this disabled child as a tool to get back at someone!
-- Edited by Screaming Barbie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 10:33:12 PM
-- Edited by Screaming Barbie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 11:37:19 PM
If someone was breaking into a neighbor's house, and loading all their stuff into their van, I would call the cops. I would not say "None of my business - no one is being abused."
Why is it viewed as none of my business if someone is stealing from a disabled person?
I understand I need to examine myself and not do anything out of resentment, and be sure I get the facts first. But I get the impression that even if I knew for a fact that he was doing this, and I was at peace, but still wanted to protect my niece, I would still be wrong?
If someone was doing this to someone who understood what was going on, but choosing not to turn him in, I could understand the MYOB attitude. But we are talking about someone who can not speak for herself, or even understand the situation.
Hi, Barbie: I don't get the same impression from reading the responses to your questions and what you have revealed about yourself, your niece, your Mom or your brother that it is being suggested that you would be wrong for reporting to the proper authorities actual abuse of your niece. I do see caution, particular reporting agencies in the case of abuse or neglect, Al-Anon program attendance and slogans that have worked for us in matters like this suggested by members to you based on the information you have offered here.
Whatever you choose to do, of course, comes with risk and consequences for those risks for you. Your niece is very important to you. My concern would be that should you report that you believe your brother is stealing from your niece and those allegations are found to be false, your niece will not be benefitted in any way and your brother could decide that he does not want you to spend time with his daughter. I would also be concerned that if your Mom was sharing some of her concerns about her son and her finances with you and you interfere with their relationship by trying to take charge of your niece's money so that your Mom could gain rent money, that you could also be in a position that could cause a rift between you and your Mom.
You are the person in this situation who may very well have the most to lose if you act in ways that can create a crisis for you and for the family. But you are also the person who is much more acquainted with the situation and the people than any of us might be. We can only share with you what we think honestly and openly based on the information you have shared with us. From there, we trust you will make the best decision you can make in this matter based on your own understanding of the situation.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 23rd of January 2015 11:33:46 PM
It's a moral quandry. If she lived in a group home, the lions share of her SSI, if not all of it, would go to the group home and it would not be fully spent entirely on her because the group home would need money to profit and pay the workers. So...the line is fuzzy here because your brother may be eentitled to some of that money as a caretaker. In that aspect, you might also be entitled to some of it as she is in your home and under your care on weekends. You could mke that argument but you are choosing to see her caretaking as a family responsibility done out of love and not something family should get funds for for themself. I think your view is honorable but it is not flat out stealing for her caretaker to have some funds for doing caretaking. It might be shady, but that is what makes this different than flat out stealing.
Also, one thing that irks me is when people ask for opinions but then get angry if the opinions are not the ones's they agree with (though i know ive done it before myself). I fully understand why aquamom has a strong opinion on this as mom of an autistic child...so Barbie, just relax and remember there is a motto in the rooms that you can take what you want and leave the rest. Wishing you peace and most of all, good care and well being for your neice.
Barbie, The entire issue has all become rather convoluted as each person posts and you, Barbie, redefine the basic issues.
Alanon believes that the answer to each situation lives within each of us. Examine your motives, place principles above personalities and take the next right action.
Pinkchip, the law is clear on this. After the age of 18, her social security income must go to housing and food, or it will be docked. And if someone is taking money out under the pretense of paying for the rent, but keeps it for himself, he is guilty of misappropriating funds.
And are insults supposed to be the kind of opinions one offers here? After making clear me deep attachment to my neice, she said I was just using her to get back at my brother. That is what I took offense at. I can understand someone saying I should make sure my resentments are not coloring my view of the situation, but she went way beyond that.
hotrod - The entire issue is extremely complex. I tried to keep it simple, but it is not anything close to a simple situation. There are layers upon layers. It does make it hard to think clearly.
But as I try to explain the situation, it makes me think of how much I have not talked with him about some of this. He puts barriers up to conversation, but I must find a way through those barriers and talk to him before I even consider any other action.
One of the layers in this complicated situation is that he has made significant improvements in other areas of his life. Perhaps he is becoming a bit more self honest and that gives me hope that we might have a productive conversation.
Funds allowing the caretaker to live could be construed as "housing" because without the caretaker, there is no housing. If it was clear, these issues wouldnt happen so much.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 24th of January 2015 01:13:20 AM
Paying for the caretakers food and gas is not housing. Paying part of the rent or mortgage is housing. And part of the utilities, too. Prorated to how many are in the house. if the electric bill is $300 and the rent is $400, the beneficiary is to pay $100 for the electricity and $133 for the rent.
I understand that Barbie, my point was that some could reason that caretaking comes at a price. If it were not family, it would be coming at a price and that would go beyond the mortgage and utilities...it would go to the caretaker and the caretaker would spend it however.... Is it reasonable or ethical for a family member to charge money for caretaking out of someone's SSI check? Maybe, maybe not. Would it stick up under audit? Maybe not. But I get the reasoning....especially if the caretaking is so intense that if the person were to do it full time, it would prohibit working another job (which sounds like it could be argued here even though he does rely on you guys some for assistance).
I sense that the biggest issue is the rent of $100 to your mother, and that she and you want it increased to a larger amount and in order to do that you want to report your brother to SS? Do I have this right?
-- Edited by Debb on Saturday 24th of January 2015 01:07:55 PM
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
Pinkchip, if you mean that is the rationalization he might be using, I totally agree with you. But if he were honest with himself, he would know that is not right (although I am seeing signs that he might be starting to get more honest with himself). But there are other programs out there to pay the caregiver. I just linked him to one of them.
Debb, I mentioned earlier that my brother has been improving in other areas - and I mean dramatic improvement! So much improvement that he must be working at being more honest with himself. And he has just paid for January and February rent! I don't know if that is just to get us off his back, or sincere improvement, but either way, we are still taking about a good thing! I will still talk with him about things, but this will certainly reduce the tension of the discussion. I had already decided I would put a lot of focus on the areas where he was improving and encourage him to apply some of the same thinking he used to make those improvements to the topic of Arianna's money. But now this give me even more positive things to bring up!
He has made improvements only to back slide again many other times, but this time feels a bit different. I am hopeful!
Screaming barbie: you asked for an opinion. You got mine. Take it or leave it. No need to justify, play victim, etc. These to me are classic coda manipulation techniques and in that sense you're right it is personal. Now I'm going to eat a page out of my own advice book and leave this thread because it is quite clear to me that you want not help into your own behaviour but tacit approval for what I see as very unhealthy codependent logic. I am but one member of ala non thankfully. I can be of no further assistance here, I wish you well.
I asked for an opinion, not an attack! I triggered some emotions with my shoes comment and from then on, you assumed I had no compassion or empathy, that I was judging based on superficial stuff like shoes, that I was not looking for ways to help, that I was actually planning to use my niece as a tool to get back at my brother.
Even after I made it clear that I am very involved in her life, pretty much raising her with my brother, you acted like that meant nothing.
I wish we could be friends. We are probably have more in common than you realize.
People do what they want to do... you will do what you want to do for whatever reasons.
I suggest you focus on you..leave the rest to higher power. HE can and will work it out, you seem like you might be hurting yourself by worrying about this too much, been there done that, do it all the time. Just sharing.
Welcome aboard! I don't know the whole situation but. no. I wouldn't turn him in. I would examine my motives and try to figure out exactly why I feel so angry as to consider it. Its your parents house so I'm sure there's bound to be a whole lot of emotional things going on for you under the surface. Keep coming back.
