Christmas Party....deceit and manipulation - Al-Anon Family Group

Flower49 · Senior Member

Christmas Party....deceit and manipulation

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

(((flower))) I'm sorry. This has all got to hurt? Frankly, this is so not Al-Anon - and I really would like to smack him with my Sister Mary Virgin look. I don't like it when folks are treated this way and I don't care about the motives on the part of the treater. We are all capable of being honest and I'm glad you didn't let him lie to you without at least expressing what you were thinking and feeling about his lie. And I'll bet you can find something more fun to do than hanging out at Christmas time with "his gang" anyway? As far as the bedbug linens - can't he wash them himself at a Laundromat? That release of that responsibility into his hands could be a Christmas gift you give to yourself?

Flower49 · Senior Member

Hey grateful - the bedbug thing was a couple of months ago and I had my own ulterior motives in helping him at the laundromat...one we had some time together when we were being banned from spending time together and I was ensured that he wouldn't be bringing any critters into my home!

It does hurt my feelings, not really because he didn't want me to go, but that he lies all the time about stuff STILL....

I did find something better to do anyway and he tried to use that as well....they have a woman they brought in for church for the Immaculate Conception that is leading a three day ministry. She has the voice of an angel and I love to hear her sing, it just gets right into my soul and I feel a spiritual thing. She is leading the ministry topic tonight on the importance of marriage LOL....now here is where it gets funny, he tried to say in one of the lies that he didn't think I wanted to go because I was going to the church program, I told him again, stop talking you knew about this Christmas party last Wednesday, you found out about the special church surprise/gift to the parish Saturday night at 6 pm. You had no intentions of attending because you said you had your Christmas party....clearly at that minute on Saturday he could have said something about his party. He tried then to say well I know you don't like all the guys...ummmm ok then stop using my car to take those guys to meetings because they are too lazy to walk or call for a ride, stop asking me to help you with cooking meals for them, baking for them, obtaining personal hygiene items for them, helping with the fundraiser for the Valentines day dance in which I raised 2000 in donations for raffle and door prizes and him and the guys decided to not tell that all of that came from me and they didn't turn it in all at once because they didn't want to get "hit" for having outside help nor be asked to continue rounding up donations....they all took the credit and not a thank you, plus it was another lie they dreamed up....obviously the place he stays needs to look at some of this because they downright encourage poor behavior.

I have a shield of armour around me and anymore what he says doens't matter to much to me,,,, it's sad though because we are trying to save our marriage and I am moving further and further away from that and more and more into just me and myself in my own life.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm glad there is something you'd enjoy more and that you are moving further and further away from trying to save your marriage and more into you and what makes you happy and healthy.

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

I think you will know when he's really getting better when he can sit down and have a honest and open discussion. Until then.. just let it go because anything else will take your recovering serenity and happiness away.

(((( hugs ))))

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

it's sad though because we are trying to save our marriage

Flower, I see that you have been trying to the marriage...probably since you got married. Of course, this hurts. Good for you for taking actions that bring you joy. I would not put any more energy into being the go to person when any of the manbabies need help. Let 'em pout.

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

The only thing I take away from this is that they all want you around to help out, but that they don't like being around you. You probably bring them down when you discuss topics such as "reality" and "responsibility". Have you checked to make sure you don't have any of their birth certificates, they sure sound like they think you are Mom! They lie about as well as my 14 year old.

Honestly, you sound like you have developed into such a better place than you were a few months ago. I'm so happy for you! Even when you do something for them, you sound like you are cognizant that it is a favor to them, as opposed to something you "need to do" for them. Sooner or later they will push you to the point that they will need to find a new mom.

Kenny

Flower49 · Senior Member

Kenny....this is good stuff you have posted. Maybe it's true, they like me to do for them but don't really like me....that isn't uncommon in my realm of the world, I don't discuss things with them as far as reality nor responsibility because that's not my side of the street, however I do discuss those things with my husband who likes to take our private conversations to his "guys" all the time and I have heard him exxagerate and embellish in the hopes of looking good. I took a look a couple of months ago at the "Mom" role and keep vigilant in not playing that role, I do love to help with fundraising as it's a speciality of mine, but them being crooked was too much, so I stopped in my efforts...heck the most they ever raise for this event is 4000 I was able to easily hit the 50% mark in 24 hours but saw quickly how it was being used in a bad manner. I do favors because helping others is really the right thing to do and I have learned though to keep it in check for exactly these reasons we are talking about.

PP - I have given up on helping out to much, they will be really upset when I have to use my own car on Friday night and they can't use it for rides (LOL)....I have and continue to try to save this marriage and one person that helps me get open, honest and real is PinkChip...he helps me understand quite often that man-baby syndrome takes awhile to get over, hopefully my husband can get past that one day, whether I am there to see it or not, that would be the best for him in order to have a full happy life and not one of dependency. Learning how not to take some of this so personally is still a struggle for me, I am learning though and when I don't take it all so personal I have noticed my own happiness, joy and peace are not interrupted so much.

Love you all!

Flower49 · Senior Member

One last thought or really a question, I am not sure if I should speak my mind to my AH and let him know I think it was hurtful to go ahead and exclude me, if he wants me to be supportive, then it's all or non and not just when it's convenient for him and that the lying and manipulation stops now, or if I just don't tell him a thing and keep my feeling to myself, which in my book isn't ok because when you don't speak your mind it just festers into resentments and anger.

Confusing to say the least hmm

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I usually find it works for me (if the relationship is important to me) if I speak how I feel or how another's behavior has affected me. If I can do this without any expectations and can handle hearing something I don't like, it is freeing for me. If I opt not to speak with the person directly, I will express my feelings to a person who knows recovery to get the feelings out of my body. A sponsor is great for these kinds of dialogues.

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

I like what Paula said there - if you can take the ensuing answer/debate, go ahead, otherwise let it out somewhere!

Speaking from experience as a (hopefully former) manipulator, I think it's good that you tell him, but he may not even get that it was a lie. I used to do that all the time, a recent inventory has alerted me to the problem that my wife has been telling me for years was there, but I denied it. I do it under the guise oof being "nice" to someone, excluding all the facts so they can't make their choice, instead I can make it for them and save us all a huge emotional discussion about it.

And this is up to you, because I may be wrong here about motives, but I think it should be made clear that it's not the fact that they don't seem to like you, or that you give and give and they don't return, or that he may or may not want you there, or any other flashy distraction he could try to buy into, it's the lying and manipulation and the fact that he doesn't want to have a grownup conversation about it with you.

Kenny

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for the nod flower. You know...I do see it as him and them having you in "mom" or sometimes "killjoy" role. It's lame but it's the same way kids act about when and how they want their moms around. Kind of like "Mom, make us some sandwiches! Now go away!" I can see how it would be hard to not take personal but I pretty much guarantee its not intentional and it's just a reflection of his emotional maturity at this time. I am betting he doesn't see the lies, believes them himself most the time, and doesn't think at all about you being "good enough" for some things and not others.

Flower49 · Senior Member

Ugh...my AH now calls and says Oh hey do you want to go? I said well I guess if you want me there (dumb answer) so he says I would love for you to go along oh Honey I knew you would do this, it's not that I don't want you to go and I guess it' a big deal and I just didn't know about it and no one tells us anything and on and on and on and then wraps up with I can only say I am sorry so many times blah, blah, blah, blah.. the hold hooking behavior in full force, trying to pawn off his immature decision and lack of accountability being tossed into my lap....I told him we can discuss this later because I am working and he is working and it's not the time or place to talk about it.

Kenny, I think you hit the nail on the head, he doesn't realize it's more or less lying and manipulating things, he pawns it of as he was thinking I didn't want to go because I don't like the program or because of church, excluded facts and made a choice for me when he shouldn't have, now somewhere in his mind he is figuring out that wasn't too good and is trying to smooth it all over and thinks that will get him out of the grownup discussion.

I think I am going to leave it lie for now and bring it up in our Saturday marriage counseling session. That is probably the safest and best place to introduce a grownup discussion with him and our counselor has a beautiful way of telling him things and me too that helps us both grow.

Flower49 · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:
Thanks for the nod flower. You know...I do see it as him and them having you in "mom" or sometimes "killjoy" role. It's lame but it's the same way kids act about when and how they want their moms around. Kind of like "Mom, make us some sandwiches! Now go away!" I can see how it would be hard to not take personal but I pretty much guarantee its not intentional and it's just a reflection of his emotional maturity at this time. I am betting he doesn't see the lies, believes them himself most the time, and doesn't think at all about you being "good enough" for some things and not others.

Thank you!!!! I been waiting for you to chime in... I wish there was a like button. I had a feeling you would explain it to me this way and I think you are pretty much spot on, however, it doesn't mean you don't have to be accountable for your actions and just skate by with making dumb decisions and saying dumb things and lying and manipulating, so I am not raising hell with him today about it, but rather calmly state my thoughts and feelings about the mess in the presence of our marriage counselor. biggrin

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

Linda...forgive me for my blunt response...this man sounds exhausting to deal with. What exactly keeps you wanting to be with him? I feel so much more freedom and a sense of peace being separated from my AH.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I am sad you were hurt. Seems like a lot of A's just do not have good people skills.

Someone sent me something like this, The givers would be best to learn when to stop giving, as the takers will always keep taking.

I like that a lot. Boy is it true. hugs honey, again it is all about you, what makes you want to be with someone who treats you so badly?

Is there enough good to keep you hanging on?

Are you happy with how things are?

What does he ever do for you? If he came home what would he bring to the marriage, the family? If he is working, is he contributing to your household now?

You know you deserve to be treated kindly and with respect!

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Yep, it doesn't get him out of being accountable. He probably feels partly retarded for not being able to get things right with you but also annoyed too. This is why they say recovery is not for wimps. The not using part is easier than the growing up part.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

To answer a question previously about what to say or not to say - I guess I'd say what I wanted and needed to say for me. My teenage grandson is fully capable of understanding the difference between honesty and lack of honesty. He also knows when he is manipulating. I don't reject him when he's trying to manipulate (though he's only tried that as a teen a few times) and I won't let him lie to me without saying something about it. I'm not in favor of letting it go with anybody who is important to me if they're not active As or mentally ill because if I do, my silence is a lie. I also say what's on my mind when I feel the need to express myself for me with no motive to change the other person. I don't establish an ultimatum for the other person to meet. I do decide what new boundaries and limits I will need to erect for me if the person continues to lie and/or manipulate once they know what is on my mind.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 10th of December 2014 05:23:15 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 10th of December 2014 05:37:24 PM

Flower49 · Senior Member

Newlife girl wrote:
Linda...forgive me for my blunt response...this man sounds exhausting to deal with. What exactly keeps you wanting to be with him? I feel so much more freedom and a sense of peace being separated from my AH.

He can be quite exhausting and part of that is his early recovery and learning to cope with real life, I love him that's all, I just love him. He is a great person when sober, but he has been not sober so long now, it's as if he is learning to walk all over again.

Flower49 · Senior Member

Debilyn wrote:
I am sad you were hurt. Seems like a lot of A's just do not have good people skills.
Someone sent me something like this, The givers would be best to learn when to stop giving, as the takers will always keep taking.
I like that a lot. Boy is it true. hugs honey, again it is all about you, what makes you want to be with someone who treats you so badly? Well when he is in sober mode, he can be pretty good. He kind of made me chuckle this weekend as he slipped 20 bucks into my purse and said I really want to try hard to start with my financial amends to you.....20 is the tip of the iceberg, but his sincerity was real and it was nice to see that part of him peaking out.
Is there enough good to keep you hanging on? There is enough good.....he is a very hard worker, quite funny, cute, adventurous and as our marriage counselor says when I mention my exasperation...don't rush just yet to throw out the bath and the baby, remind myself it may take at least two years for him to recover his maturity level and some sort of rational thinking.
Are you happy with how things are? I am ok with it for now...not ecstatic, not thinking this is how I want to live, but it's working slowly to bring about healing and I can work with that for now.
What does he ever do for you? If he came home what would he bring to the marriage, the family? If he is working, is he contributing to your household now? He doesn't do many small things like romantic things for me that is for sure, he has brought some flowers over a few times, he has taken me to a movie a few times, he is working and I had to kind of tell him here is what you need to pay each month in order to keep your motorcycle and he does and has gotten very consistent with that, I am not quite sure what he is able to bring to a marriage yet, we enjoy our time together when we have it but he still has a long way to go in figuring out relationship and recovery, I have a long way to go in gaining better understanding of that and also not having expectations of him being a fully mature grown up. He has started working on some of the house repairs because he is very handy and talented in that way, when he comes on the weekend to stay he helps with my dogs and clean up which I really appreciate because it's cold now here and I hate getting frozen picking up poop :)
You know you deserve to be treated kindly and with respect! I do deserve to be treated that way and I have directly stated that to him just as you said here, I have told him on several occasions when he has not been respectful or nice, but now I know how to state it in a factly manner, with not so much high emotion, state what I need to and then move on and not keep hammering at it until I hear what I need or want to hear and let him process his thoughts and then discuss it.
Some days I think to myself....GEEZ I am spinning my wheels and other days I feel pretty good with my progress, his progress and our progress....healing a marriage with a person in long term recovery is a tough road, but this is something really important to both of us and we have really good help in our counselor, if we had not taken the step to have private marriage counseling this would have not worked out at all.
Thank you so much for always having great wisdom to share with me.

giraffe13 · Senior Member

I have not read your past posts, but you said he is actively drinking. I mean, I think he would need a good amount of time sober a year or so is what I read before you can really see where he stands morally with this kind of thing, being honest with himself, etc. Early on he is still a mess and newly recovering. And if drinking, well then , forget it. My ex bf used to always pull the typical, "Well you didn't ask." Including a time when I went out of town with my parents for a cruise, didn't invite him and he told me he was going to work for the day upstate. I quickly learned that he was indeed working there that day but also sleeping in a house that night with a bunch of women and his friends. ugh. just pisses me off writing it now and this was in 2012. When I asked him his answer was, well you didn't ask about that part. how would I know to ask that!

The other zinger was when he planned dinner down the street with a family we always eat dinner with, didn't invite me, and when he left and I was sitting there like a dummy and asked Why am I not going? This feels weird. .. "well, I didn't think you would want to go. You haven't been feeling well so I told them it was just going to be me." Truth: I was sick, he had to take care of me that week, and was just needing selfish time alone to drink wine at his best friends house and dine on a homemade meal, while I sat at home and figured out what to order for delivery down the street alone by myself. idiot. when I challenged him on it he told me if I keep it up he is not even going to return home after the dinner. haha!!!! They make it what they want, to lie to themselves more than to us. When they are drinking, what else is there to expect. No one with a clear mind thinks this way. IMO.

I get ya, The love is great.. but these things hurt so much too. Between a rock and a hard place.

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